Keep Pete or Russ?

[QuahHawk]

Russ is a fake leader. I mean his teammates know more than fans do but I see a giant phony.

I will roll the dice on a different QB. Even if it take 5 years.

 

[keasley45]

I'm done with Russ, at least on his current contract or anything close to it. I've seen too many NON-clutch moments from him the past couple years to know that I have lost confidence in him. His Houdini act is gone, but he still thinks he has it. The result, he takes way too sacks. It seems like the league has figured him out and he has no counter moves left. I am convinced he cannot carry a team on his back.

I go back and forth on Pete. But the question was Pete or Russ. Between the 2, I'd rather see Russ gone. I could see us getting back on track quickly with some additional money for top tier free agents and a couple first round draft picks, which would all be possible if we let Russ go. If we wipe out the entire coaching staff and keep Russ, how many OC's will this be for him? Enough is enough.


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Good points.

My hesitation with that line of thinking is how bad Rodgers looked late in the McCarthy tenure. The man looked done. Completely rejuvenated, even at an advanced age, since the change in HC and modernisation of the offense.

Rodgers has never looked like RW 2019-2021. Never. There's a difference between an offense that's been figured out and a qb that's been figured out. We have the latter.

 

[bigskydoc]

Russ may never be an elite quarterback. He may have habits so ingrained, for whatever reason, that he may never learn to trust the protection that is there, stand in the pocket, and find the open man, rather than trust his ability to escape the pocket and the oncoming rush. He may never learn to take the hits inside the pocket, despite the fact that the rules protect him from taking any real, heavy hits.

Then again, given a coach who game-plans to take advantage of opponent weaknesses, and makes in-game adjustments to take advantage of newly identified weaknesses, Russ may begin to trust in himself again, and learn to take the right chances, while taking advantage of the opportunities to stay ahead of the sticks.

Carrol has an overriding philosophy. It isn't changing. No matter who is under center, Pete will still rely on out-executing, rather than out-scheming, the opponent. It doesn't matter if you bring Rodgers or Brady in, Pete will still draw up a game plan that will not play to their strengths. He will stick to the setup for the over-the-top, hero-ball, dagger to the heart.

Can there be any residual question of who built the team that brought home the trophy? Since McCloughan left, our drafts and trades have been absolutely epic failures. Our combined draft results are average at best. We've wasted picks and players to bring in stars that Carroll can't or won't adjust his plan to take advantage of their unique abilities.

It's time to move on from Pete. Hopefully, there is something left of Russ to salvage. Even at his worst, he gives us something better than 80% of the other quarterbacks in the league, and it is highly unlikely that we can get a return worth trading him for.

I vote to retain Wilson, and dump Pete and staff. I would retain Schneider, as my sense is that he is not responsible for how we have mismanaged the talent we have acquired.

 

[QuahHawk]

Russ may never be an elite quarterback. He may have habits so ingrained, for whatever reason, that he may never learn to trust the protection that is there, stand in the pocket, and find the open man, rather than trust his ability to escape the pocket and the oncoming rush. He may never learn to take the hits inside the pocket, despite the fact that the rules protect him from taking any real, heavy hits.

Then again, given a coach who game-plans to take advantage of opponent weaknesses, and makes in-game adjustments to take advantage of newly identified weaknesses, Russ may begin to trust in himself again, and learn to take the right chances, while taking advantage of the opportunities to stay ahead of the sticks.

Carrol has an overriding philosophy. It isn't changing. No matter who is under center, Pete will still rely on out-executing, rather than out-scheming, the opponent. It doesn't matter if you bring Rodgers or Brady in, Pete will still draw up a game plan that will not play to their strengths. He will stick to the setup for the over-the-top, hero-ball, dagger to the heart.

Can there be any residual question of who built the team that brought home the trophy? Since McCloughan left, our drafts and trades have been absolutely epic failures. Our combined draft results are average at best. We've wasted picks and players to bring in stars that Carroll can't or won't adjust his plan to take advantage of their unique abilities.

It's time to move on from Pete. Hopefully, there is something left of Russ to salvage. Even at his worst, he gives us something better than 80% of the other quarterbacks in the league, and it is highly unlikely that we can get a return worth trading him for.

I vote to retain Wilson, and dump Pete and staff. I would retain Schneider, as my sense is that he is not responsible for how we have mismanaged the talent we have acquired.

I am not buying 80% of the QB's

I'd easily take

Mahomes
Herbert
Stafford
Burrow
Allen
Prescott
Rodgers

Would also strongly consider these as good if not better options
Murray
Lawerence
Lamar Jackson

And just because I'm so short sighted due to recent frustrations with Russ right now I feel like I'd rather root for these QB's in 2022
Matt Ryan
Tannehill
Wentz
Mac Jones
Mayfield

Since the Buffalo game in 2020 Russ has had maybe 3 really good games. @ NYJ 2020, @ Indy 2021, and vs Ten 2021

 

[Hawker55]

C. Carroll gone, Schneider gone, Wilson gone

Gotta rebuild.

Carroll is absolutely delusional if he doesn’t think a rebuild is necessary.

What an absolute joke he has become.

Anyone with outside eyes can see whatever Carroll has been doing this year (and definitely) years past, has not worked out and he has no answers and doesn’t make any changes.

The NFL and more importantly NFC West has ran laps around Carroll and Carroll thinks he can make a come back without making any changes or modern day NFL adjustments.

Utterly, embarrassing.

Carroll’s continual incompetence has become most taxing.

Here here :irishdrinkers:

 

[scutterhawk]

I think Pete is still committed to this franchise and this team. I think Russell is committed to his Legacy and his brand. It is getting harder and harder to root for Russell the more highly he thinks of himself and his skill set.

Funny, but I'm not reading the same confidence in Wilsons eyes & demeanor that was once on full display.
I'm sensing that Pete is trying to get Russ through this 'Bewilderment' stage.
I believe Wilson is struggling with the changes that he knows he has to make, & I think Pete is hanging with him 'til he gets through it.
Just my 2 cents. :229031_shrug:

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Russ is a fake leader. I mean his teammates know more than fans do but I see a giant phony.

I will roll the dice on a different QB. Even if it take 5 years.

I imagine Russ is like he is with his teammates as he is with everyone else publicly. Stiff, awkward, corny and robotic.

Hell, Mike Rob did an entire Youtube video series following Russell around joking about how robotic he is.

So my guess is he's not the best locker room or film room leader, and that led to a lot of ex players ( and I assume some current) complaining about him.

To this point he's made up for this with being tough as hell, his work ethic and balling out year after year.

Until this year.

 

[Hawker55]

I think Pete is still committed to this franchise and this team. I think Russell is committed to his Legacy and his brand. It is getting harder and harder to root for Russell the more highly he thinks of himself and his skill set.

I have to agree, seeing tweets like this.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/DangeRussWilson/status/1475654095386005509[/tweet]

Retweeting how Myers says the bad kick was "all on him" by saying that Myers is among the best in the league, to cover up the fact that Russ put him 13 yards back.

Just sums it up for me, really.

That's what you took from that retreat is it? Sounds to me like a teammate being uplifting to a fellow teammate and professional kicker making millions of dollars who just missed a 39 yard feild goal to win the game. One of many I might add. But that's just me.

 

[SantaClaraHawk]

Hawker55, I respectfully disagree because it wasn't all on Myers. You saw how that kick seemed to be accurate and sailed wide really late, which would not have happened had it been 13 yards closer. Which was Russ' fault more than even PCs, as people here have said. Russ was allowed to "cook" and that's what happened.

That's why I think the Tweet showed Russ' hubris. He can't take responsibility for his own mistakes, so he tries to cover it up with fake sympathy for this kicker.

 

[TwistedHusky]

1/3 to 1/2 of that last QB list are guys that shrink in big moments.

LA is going to find out all about Stafford in the playoffs, as an example.

Wilson's greatest attribute is not his incredible accuracy on the long ball, it is that he gets better under pressure. That is both unreachable and incredibly difficult to find.

He does not shrink during big moments and does not get flustered, or rarely does.

Remember in a playoffs game against the Vikings? How the snap was off, he chases after the ball and calmly throws for a long gain? His entire career is filled with great plays under pressure.

My preference had always been to focus on building this team by doubling down on Lynch and the LOB, but the Unger trade was an indicator that was not going to happen.

It was clear from the start that trying to give the keys to your QB would not work when your HC is unable to win with offense.

It is also clear now the current agenda is to devalue Wilson so we feel better when we lose him.

But that list is laughable. 25% are almost choke artists, not sure I see many guys with the resolve and ability to overcome adversity that Wilson has. And many of the rest simply wilt in the bright lights, where Wilson seems to thrive.

The playoffs happen under bright lights. Guys that don't shrink then are immensely valuable.

And few if ANY of those QBs could win under Carroll anyway.

 

[seabowl]

1/3 to 1/2 of that last QB list are guys that shrink in big moments.

LA is going to find out all about Stafford in the playoffs, as an example.

Wilson's greatest attribute is not his incredible accuracy on the long ball, it is that he gets better under pressure. That is both unreachable and incredibly difficult to find.

He does not shrink during big moments and does not get flustered, or rarely does.

Remember in a playoffs game against the Vikings? How the snap was off, he chases after the ball and calmly throws for a long gain? His entire career is filled with great plays under pressure.

My preference had always been to focus on building this team by doubling down on Lynch and the LOB, but the Unger trade was an indicator that was not going to happen.

It was clear from the start that trying to give the keys to your QB would not work when your HC is unable to win with offense.

It is also clear now the current agenda is to devalue Wilson so we feel better when we lose him.

But that list is laughable. 25% are almost choke artists, not sure I see many guys with the resolve and ability to overcome adversity that Wilson has. And many of the rest simply wilt in the bright lights, where Wilson seems to thrive.

The playoffs happen under bright lights. Guys that don't shrink then are immensely valuable.

And few if ANY of those QBs could win under Carroll anyway.

He WAS great under pressure PRIOR to him losing his scrambling ability. That was what made him special and the never give up attitude. His scrambling bought him time which he cannot do now. He regressed so quickly that I'm not sure he can get it back. Sad times indeed.

 

[Hawker55]

Hawker55, I respectfully disagree because it wasn't all on Myers. You saw how that kick seemed to be accurate and sailed wide really late, which would not have happened had it been 13 yards closer. Which was Russ' fault more than even PCs, as people here have said. Russ was allowed to "cook" and that's what happened.

That's why I think the Tweet showed Russ' hubris. He can't take responsibility for his own mistakes, so he tries to cover it up with fake sympathy for this kicker.

Its cool to disagree, but like my grandma always said,, If ifs and buts were candy and nuts every day would be Halloween. He's a professional place kicker who has a career long of 59 I believe? Don't remember seeing that make hook through? I don't remember him hooking the ball on every kick at all? Does he have a natural hook on every kick?

The kick Sunday was 39. Regardless of what Wilson did, he should have made that kick and he knows it, just read his tweet he's 100% right. I would not be a topic of discussion right now if he'd just made it. He's one of the best in the world at what he does, and he failed on an relatively routine kick.

 

[AgentDib]

This topic depends on a couple of other important questions because Pete isn't going to want to get rid of Russ unless he has to.

1) Can Russ be fixed?

Our team has a sub-par level of talent, and the single biggest factor is that we are paying the highest NFL QB cap hit to Russ in a season where he is frankly not playing well (20th in QBR). If you look at the Bucs in comparison they spend a smaller cap hit on the combined salaries of Tom Brady, Mike Evans, Vita Vea, Tristan Wirfs, and Shaquil Barrett. If they all were injured or their performance plummeted to below average then the Bucs would be very lucky to have even five wins.

How much of Russ's struggles have been a new offense that he is still getting used to, or the finger injury which he will heal more completely from over a full off-season? And how many are due to his loss of mobility and inability to diagnose opposing defenses?

2) If Russ can be fixed, what is the ideal system for him to play in?

It seems like the perfect team for Russ would be one with a strong running game that forced defenses to stack the box, and a scheme with a heavy dose of play action allowing him to take deep shots on the outsides to receivers who were in the resulting single coverages. However, that sounds a lot like the Hawks offense for the bulk of his tenure here that some Russ diehards claim is holding him back.

What offense would not be holding him back? There is a fixed amount of money to go around under a hard salary cap, so you can't just have the most expensive QB plus a good OL plus good receivers plus good running backs. Teams can only afford an average of average.

 

[Jerhawk]

I'd rather keep Wilson.
We've seen what the Pete Carroll Seahawks look like without Wilson.
2010-2011 were .500 clubs. Yes, I understand he just inherited a bad team and needed to turn it around. But he and JS swung and missed with Tarvaris Jackson, Charlie Whitehurst and Matt Flynn.

Wilson made this team a championship contender. Without him with all of the other pieces in place, this team doesn't sniff a Superbowl, let alone go to two in a row.

Wilson is not the problem. The boring offense he's in behind a very bad offensive line and an unstable group of running backs is the problem.
Get him some protection and a creative offense, and he will be back to form

 

[HawkOG70’]

I'd rather rock with Pete. We need to replace Wilson and his #1 cap hit with draft capital and free agent acquisitions to bolster what we already have. Bring in a game manager that will grow not regress. Kenny Pickett would fit this system beautifully with a healthy Rashaad Penny and DeeJay in the backfield. Trade DK for a first and a third and add a couple of roughneck O lineman that'll shorten your freakin neck and stack the D line and secondary with draft picks and or free agency. GO HAWKS!!!! :2thumbs:

 

[pittpnthrs]

I'm done with Russ, at least on his current contract or anything close to it. I've seen too many NON-clutch moments from him the past couple years to know that I have lost confidence in him. His Houdini act is gone, but he still thinks he has it. The result, he takes way too sacks. It seems like the league has figured him out and he has no counter moves left. I am convinced he cannot carry a team on his back.

I go back and forth on Pete. But the question was Pete or Russ. Between the 2, I'd rather see Russ gone. I could see us getting back on track quickly with some additional money for top tier free agents and a couple first round draft picks, which would all be possible if we let Russ go. If we wipe out the entire coaching staff and keep Russ, how many OC's will this be for him? Enough is enough.


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He has carried the team for the past 6 years. Maybe he just cant anymore and needs help. Help that he wont get with Carroll calling the shots. You really think a couple 1st round picks and a couple FA signings by this FO is going to right the ship? Lol. The OC's will never matter as long as Pete is here. They are all forced into running Pete Ball eventually. It only took one game this season for Waldron to fall in line and that was after the offense looked awesome. Pete is the bigger problem and has to go.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Those that say Pete can’t or won’t change no matter what, I ask what’s your thoughts on him changing his long standard on defensive backs? He always required DBs to have at minimum 32” arms. Outside CBs had to have this requirement, something he had in place for a decade. He changed his stance.

How has that worked out for him?

 

[HawkOG70’]

I'm done with Russ, at least on his current contract or anything close to it. I've seen too many NON-clutch moments from him the past couple years to know that I have lost confidence in him. His Houdini act is gone, but he still thinks he has it. The result, he takes way too sacks. It seems like the league has figured him out and he has no counter moves left. I am convinced he cannot carry a team on his back.

I go back and forth on Pete. But the question was Pete or Russ. Between the 2, I'd rather see Russ gone. I could see us getting back on track quickly with some additional money for top tier free agents and a couple first round draft picks, which would all be possible if we let Russ go. If we wipe out the entire coaching staff and keep Russ, how many OC's will this be for him? Enough is enough.


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He has carried the team for the past 6 years. Maybe he just cant anymore and needs help. Help that he wont get with Carroll calling the shots. You really think a couple 1st round picks and a couple FA signings by this FO is going to right the ship? Lol. The OC's will never matter as long as Pete is here. They are all forced into running Pete Ball eventually. It only took one game this season for Waldron to fall in line and that was after the offense looked awesome. Pete is the bigger problem and has to go.

wtf?? Russ has actually looked like shit for 2 years in a row now. His cap hit is #1. His production is embarrassingly bad and he can't seem to see the field. Is he sucking on purpose to get the eff out of Seattle? Possibly but it would be easier if he simply requests a trade. His trade value has actually increased according to many analysts despite the injury there are several suitors lined up at the chance of making Seattle the next Dallas Cowboys of the early 90s when Jimmy Johnson was there

 

[Palmegranite]

Think of the Dallas playoff game.
That was Pete's brain being showcased that day and we all all screamed at the TV. This sucks!

That was the plan? That was the strategy?

Please, Pete, retire now while you still have a semblance of respect and a legacy.
Bring in someone, anyone who will scheme and plan to the strengths of the QB, not stubbornly dig in and do the opposite based on who-knows-what philosophy.

Imagine if the NHL Edmonton Oilers had a defensive minded strategy during the Gretzky years; "lets keep the score low Wayne, rag the puck for two or three periods, then win it for us in the last period."

That coach would have been run out of town on a rail. The Seattle press, and fans have been overly patient. Now is the time for a coaching change.

 

[Hawker55]

I'm done with Russ, at least on his current contract or anything close to it. I've seen too many NON-clutch moments from him the past couple years to know that I have lost confidence in him. His Houdini act is gone, but he still thinks he has it. The result, he takes way too sacks. It seems like the league has figured him out and he has no counter moves left. I am convinced he cannot carry a team on his back.

I go back and forth on Pete. But the question was Pete or Russ. Between the 2, I'd rather see Russ gone. I could see us getting back on track quickly with some additional money for top tier free agents and a couple first round draft picks, which would all be possible if we let Russ go. If we wipe out the entire coaching staff and keep Russ, how many OC's will this be for him? Enough is enough.


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He has carried the team for the past 6 years. Maybe he just cant anymore and needs help. Help that he wont get with Carroll calling the shots. You really think a couple 1st round picks and a couple FA signings by this FO is going to right the ship? Lol. The OC's will never matter as long as Pete is here. They are all forced into running Pete Ball eventually. It only took one game this season for Waldron to fall in line and that was after the offense looked awesome. Pete is the bigger problem and has to go.

wtf?? Russ has actually looked like $h!t for 2 years in a row now. His cap hit is #1. His production is embarrassingly bad and he can't seem to see the field. Is he sucking on purpose to get the eff out of Seattle? Possibly but it would be easier if he simply requests a trade. His trade value has actually increased according to many analysts despite the injury there are several suitors lined up at the chance of making Seattle the next Dallas Cowboys of the early 90s when Jimmy Johnson was there

2 years now? Sure about that? Wasn't he the front runner for MVP first half of last season? Playing to the national chants of "let Russ Cook" didn't he play lights out the first game of this season? Didn't he look like the Russ of old against the niners? You gonna tell me the niners and colts suck? Cuz they don't.

Is he his old self this season, for the most part nope. But are you really ready to give up on him because of one bad season? Especially one where he's coming off a serious injury? One where he is still in his prime? Are you not even willing to entertain the possibility that his struggles might be related to bigger issues on and off the field? And yes I mean Pete Carroll.

Sorry but he has the benefit of the doubt right now, especially when I see incompetent coaching and preparation week in and week out.