YAC. Tired of taking heat over it.

[CalgaryFan05]

I'm tired of taking heat over the whole YAC issue, and my general problem with it. This is a crosspost from the Camp day 5 response. Just giving it it's own thread here:

Yup. I've had a problem with YAC and primarily Tyler - but the receivers in general.

https://www.footballdb.com/statistics/nfl/player-stats/receiving?sort=recyac

For those that think it's a useless statistic, or that I just piss on Tyler for laughs. Go to the link. Now that I actually have that grid, I might slice and dice it in Excel - but here's a 2 second analysis.

What it tells me is that Tyler has YAC of 26% of total yards (1033 Total). Let's float in the middle of the grid and compare. I'll pick Dallas Goedert as an example. He's middle of the pac for YAC. He's got 60% YAC of total yards. He's the middle. So, using his number, Tyler should have, and let's take 50% as a number for a target - approximately 516 YAC. He's got 274. So, he's leaving 242 yards in YAC on the 'table' making business decisions. So, 242/1033 is 23% of his YAC job that he's 'not doing'.

If I had an employee (when I did) - if they said to me - can I just show up and do 75% of my job, and would that be cool with you? 'Cause I gotta stay fresh for my other future job? Well, I'd fire them.

They track YAC for performance across players. I'm quite sure that some performance bonuses are keyed around this number also - or for sure total yards.

So, no, I'm not cool with it. Neither are 2 or 3 articles that I've posted on the matter. Neither is Murph from Top Billin' - irrespective of what you think of him.

If you're telling me that between DK (no analysis done) and Tyler that the sewing circle mentality isn't affecting game results with another 500-700 yards between them potentially YAC - they you're delusional. That might have been the difference in tilting 2-4 games into the win column. Just on a 100yd/touchdown basis - that's 5-7 TD's that aren't on the board - the actual calculation would be much more difficult.

Anyhow - I'd say rant off - but don't let a little bit of factual analysis burn too much.

And as a final clarification - I do not hate Tyler. I wish he would do his ENTIRE job. See JSN get immediate Vert after the catch on the camp videos? I want THAT.

And, as a final 'comment' - I'd say that the YAC allergy is a 'mindset'. It's affected the receiving room. It spreads. I'd like to see expectations set higher, both from a coaching perspective, and a fan perspective. NOBODY else gets a pass on unrealized potential. Why this?

 

[Ozzy]

It's definitely not a useless statistic and its something we need to improve on. Not sure if its a talent issue, scheme issue or both but hopefully JSN can bring another element of it to our offense.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Me thinks JSN is going to be ridiculous at YAC.

 

[Mix]

YAC is a combination of a receivers ability to get open, make defenders miss, the routes they are asked to run, and how well your QB can throw to a receiver without breaking his stride.

I could be wrong as I do not know of all the contracts out there. But if you have a contract based on YAC over Total Yards you should fire your agent. I have never heard of YAC being a stat used for bonuses.

 

[LeveeBreak]

What it tells me is that Tyler has YAC of 26% of total yards (1033 Total). Let's float in the middle of the grid and compare. I'll pick Dallas Goedert as an example. He's middle of the pac for YAC. He's got 60% YAC of total yards. He's the middle. So, using his number, Tyler should have, and let's take 50% as a number for a target - approximately 516 YAC. He's got 274. So, he's leaving 242 yards in YAC on the 'table' making business decisions. So, 242/1033 is 23% of his YAC job that he's 'not doing'.

If I had an employee (when I did) - if they said to me - can I just show up and do 75% of my job, and would that be cool with you? 'Cause I gotta stay fresh for my other future job? Well, I'd fire them.

I hear ya and understand the point...but see it a bit differently. I think the WR position has a standard set of attributes (probably ~15-20) to evaluate on, with some of them being a higher priority or value and fall into tiers. Tier 1: Can Get Open (Seperation, Quickness, Awareness), Can Catch (Total Catches, Tough Catches, Total Drops), Total Yards, Game Awareness & Blocking.

For me, YAC falls into tier 2. Important, but if a player is good at all the tier 1 items, i'm not overly concerned on this. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses...YAC is not a TL strength. Clutch > YAC.

 

[Mick063]

To say the team has abandoned the concept of YAC is either dishonest or non-observant. For example, every ten-yard come-back completion to DK is of YAC intent. He just has to break the open field tackle to take it the distance. There are several other examples as well.

YAC is more of an individual achievement than an offensive philosophy.

Seattle had the top completion percentage as well as achieving certain metrics that demonstrate that they also had the best deep passing game. Why not just appreciate what the team is really good at as well as understand what the real offensive struggles are?

The real issue, for the offense, was being ranked 27th in red zone efficiency. Scoring touchdowns in the red zone. THAT is the offensive hurdle that we should be discussing.

 

[fenderbender123]

YAC is a combination of a receivers ability to get open, make defenders miss, the routes they are asked to run, and how well your QB can throw to a receiver without breaking his stride.

I could be wrong as I do not know of all the contracts out there. But if you have a contract based on YAC over Total Yards you should fire your agent. I have never heard of YAC being a stat used for bonuses.

This. I think YAC should be looked at, but if you're looking to place blame then you'd have to look at every single reception and see where the ball was placed, what the route was, if the defender was in position to make an immediate tackle, if the clock situation warranted running out of bounds, and categorize/tally them up accordingly.

 

[hoxrox]

Having a screen game would also help the YAC stats. This team hasn't been good at the screen game dating back to the Bevell days.

 

[Mick063]

Having a screen game would also help the YAC stats. This team hasn't been good at the screen game dating back to the Bevell days.

This is a winning post. The offensive line requires continuity for the timing to be right. The roster churn for the NFL in general has made the screen pass suffer more than just about any other play. If you want to see properly executed screen plays, you have to go back in time about three decades (or at least back before the CBA dictated the four-year contract cycle). The reason why was that there was much more continuity for offensive lines.

 

[SeaWolv]

Comparing Lockett to Goedert is pretty ridiculous. Goedert is 6'5" and 256 lbs. whereas Lockett is only 5'10" and 182 lbs. You expect tight ends to get YAC because their sheer size makes them difficult to tackle. Not so with a slot receiver. Lockett's only advantage once he catches the ball is his speed, he ran a 4.4 at the combine. Unfortunately that was 8 years ago and he's likely not that fast anymore which means his ability to get YAC is also diminishing. So the only thing Lockett really has going for him anymore is his ability to catch the ball or being "clutch" as Levee stated. He should be judged on his drop rate now not his YAC.

JSN and DJM are your YAC guys now.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Seems like kind of a strawman argument, considering I don't know any analyst or forum member who's said YAC doesn't matter.

But comparing a gigantic X split end receiver like DK who's not going to have a lot of YAC yards unless he runs away from defenders after the catch and a smaller shifty slot or Z receiver like Lockett is apples and oranges IMO.

But rant away my friend!

 

[Seahawker]

If memory serves me, Tyler started giving himself up early & going out of bounds a couple years ago when he was nursing an injury.
I have no problem with it as his superb route running & great hands are his game heading into the #2 all time Seahawk WR record book.
I'm sure there are some who believe a 5'10" 180lb, 30 year old realtor should take on opposing strong safeties straight up with a little more zeal, I'm not one of them. This reminds me of the SA37 is soft threads (live to fight another day) despite the TD's.
Let DK & JSN rack up all the YAC and just be happy we have one of the best WR rooms in the NFL.

 

[nanomoz]

Did anyone say YAC is a useless statistic? I didn't see it.

I'm not a lover of PFF, but this is a great read on the subject: https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-da...the-catch-determined-factors-before-the-catch

It mentions Tyler by name. But . . . a lot of YAC-based judgments are kind of an oversimplification.

 

[AgentDib]

YAC matters, and I've argued that Lockett is less valuable than catch stats would indicate alone because of it. However, it's just one part of the entire picture and players can be effective in many different ways.

Lockett had decent YAC during his rookie contract, also contributed with both punt returns and kick returns, and we even gave him the occasional rushing attempt to let him use his speed in the open field. He wasn't even always a starter back then and we used him as a gadget player.

These days, Lockett has a different playstyle. He goes down before contact, no longer contributes on special teams and we didn't hand him the ball once last year. But he's also averaging over 1000 yards per season, has started 97% of our games, and is right at the top of the league in terms of catch rate. He's still a very effective receiver without the YAC, and he'll outplay his contract this year if he stays healthy. It will be interesting to see what happens though in 2024/2025 when the cap hits escalate to $27m/year.

The Hawks clearly prioritize open field threats but it just doesn't always work out personnel wise. See: Leon Washington, Marshawn Lynch, Percy Harvin, CJ Prosise, Christine Michael, Rashaad Penny, Dee Eskridge, Bo Melton, Ken Walker and now JSN.

 

[pmedic920]

Keep the chains/line of scrimmage moving in the right direction, score points in the red zone (hopefully more TDs than FGs) and I’m happy.

I love seeing star/flashy players do well but I certainly don’t care about any stats if we’re winning games.

 

[Fade]

The Seahawks ignore the RB in the pass game, and their screen game is near non existent. A lot more YAC could be coming from here.

Lockett plays touch football rather than tackle. Which I'm actually fine with, as I'd rather have him for 15 games rather than only 6 games or so.

DK is one of the most double teamed WRs in the league, so just flippin' it out to him isn't ideal. Moving DK around more both Pre- and Post snap, would make his YAK numbers climb more, and force defenses to think more. The Seahawks make it too easy at times allowing opponents to just lineup and play DK a certain way. Move him around MOAR.

Pete's philosophy, he doesn't really like the short passing game where a lot YAC comes from. His logic is, why throw a 3 yd pass, where a lot of bad things can happen, when you can just run it instead?

Waldron coming in has softened this up a bit, but at the end of the day, Pete wants to run it, and get huge chunk plays by throwing downfield in the pass game.

This philosophy is going to make your YAC numbers suffer some.

Pete also will tailor things to certain skillsets. Golden Tate was a dynamic YAC receiver when he was with Hawks, and they would actually throw backside slants, bubbles, and just find ways to get the ball in his hands early to take advantage of his skillset. Maybe with JSN they now have this again?

I agree with the posters that said Red Zone offense is the more important issue. Which I know for a fact JSN will help boost, along with 3rd downs too.

 

[Hawkmode]

I'm tired of taking heat over the whole YAC issue, and my general problem with it. This is a crosspost from the Camp day 5 response. Just giving it it's own thread here:

Yup. I've had a problem with YAC and primarily Tyler - but the receivers in general.

https://www.footballdb.com/statistics/nfl/player-stats/receiving?sort=recyac

For those that think it's a useless statistic, or that I just piss on Tyler for laughs. Go to the link. Now that I actually have that grid, I might slice and dice it in Excel - but here's a 2 second analysis.

What it tells me is that Tyler has YAC of 26% of total yards (1033 Total). Let's float in the middle of the grid and compare. I'll pick Dallas Goedert as an example. He's middle of the pac for YAC. He's got 60% YAC of total yards. He's the middle. So, using his number, Tyler should have, and let's take 50% as a number for a target - approximately 516 YAC. He's got 274. So, he's leaving 242 yards in YAC on the 'table' making business decisions. So, 242/1033 is 23% of his YAC job that he's 'not doing'.

If I had an employee (when I did) - if they said to me - can I just show up and do 75% of my job, and would that be cool with you? 'Cause I gotta stay fresh for my other future job? Well, I'd fire them.

They track YAC for performance across players. I'm quite sure that some performance bonuses are keyed around this number also - or for sure total yards.

So, no, I'm not cool with it. Neither are 2 or 3 articles that I've posted on the matter. Neither is Murph from Top Billin' - irrespective of what you think of him.

If you're telling me that between DK (no analysis done) and Tyler that the sewing circle mentality isn't affecting game results with another 500-700 yards between them potentially YAC - they you're delusional. That might have been the difference in tilting 2-4 games into the win column. Just on a 100yd/touchdown basis - that's 5-7 TD's that aren't on the board - the actual calculation would be much more difficult.

Anyhow - I'd say rant off - but don't let a little bit of factual analysis burn too much.

And as a final clarification - I do not hate Tyler. I wish he would do his ENTIRE job. See JSN get immediate Vert after the catch on the camp videos? I want THAT.

And, as a final 'comment' - I'd say that the YAC allergy is a 'mindset'. It's affected the receiving room. It spreads. I'd like to see expectations set higher, both from a coaching perspective, and a fan perspective. NOBODY else gets a pass on unrealized potential. Why this?

Let's look at it in a different way that Geno led the NFL in Deep Ball Passing...depending on starting field position if a pass has 40+ air yards your WR is already attracting tackle help from any deep posted safety...increasing the likelihood of either a contested catch or a quick tackle from close proximity from a trailing corner or an arriving deep safety.

The result then becomes a significant gain or even a touchdown. Catching a ball closer to the line of scrimmage as you break in your route (at the stem of the route) gives more opportunity for YAC if the WR eludes or breaks the tackle of the closest defender.

The QB can play a major role...has he looked away from his target before firing it in? Is the QB late in recognizing a WR breaking into space? Where is the pass dropping in for the called play?

Yes Tyler has recently seemed like a sliding QB on some plays...but is it something to quibble about for all the production he continues to yield? Tyler has been a clutch WR time and again and light builded WR especially ones who have suffered a major injury before are likely to avoid a solid hit after safely pulling the pass into their body.

 

[cymatica]

Lockette doesn't need yac, he's one of the best in the game and consistently gets open and makes great catches. I'd rather have him protect his body and stay healthy

 

[hgwellz12]

This is a winning post. The offensive line requires continuity for the timing to be right. The roster churn for the NFL in general has made the screen pass suffer more than just about any other play. If you want to see properly executed screen plays, you have to go back in time about three decades (or at least back before the CBA dictated the four-year contract cycle). The reason why was that there was much more continuity for offensive lines.

Or just watch virtually any other team run one against us. Like, the Rams seem to be able to run successful screens on our defense for 20 yards a pop twice a game.

 

[cymatica]

Or just watch virtually any other team run one against us. Like, the Rams seem to be able to run successful screens on our defense for 20 yards a pop twice a game.

Yeah not sure what he's talking about. There's several teams that are great at screens. Seattle probably doesn't dedicate much practice time to them