Which loss is more damaging to a team?

[Quorthon13]

I found it pretty shocking --- usually business decisions in a football game are corner backs deciding not to hit Beastmode when he is going in the endzone anyways.

I used to dive on fumbles IN PRACTICE, let alone in a live game.

And the game was not decided, Ted Ginn Jr. got behind the defense a couple of times, and Gregg Olsen was doing his usually Tight End-y stuff.

Also - not really fair to compare it to the Seahawks loss, as we are not really unbiased observers(the Seahawks loss was more shocking to us because we care).

To any neutral person though, a QB in the Superbowl not diving at a fumble with the game still close was way more shocking then a 5th string WR not catching a TD on the 1 yard line.

As soon as it happened, I said to myself, Cam just lost the team(and the game).......So I vote for this being more damaging to the team long term..... ukeface:

[youtube]dc0nADI14e8[/youtube]

 

[KiwiHawk]

Against that defense on that day, yeah, the game was over. Even if Newton or someone else recovers for the Panthers, its 4th and 15+ yards. You punt the ball and have first stop the Broncos and second drive the length of the field against a defense that yielded, what, 160 yards all game?

6 points is one play. One guy trips on the horrific turf, or blows coverage, bites on a double move, etc., and it's game over for Denver, who couldn't move the ball on offense.

Bizarre stuff happens in the NFL - see last year's playoff game vs. Green Bay.

 

[Hawks46]

The biggest difference between these teams is that the Seahawks never give up. They have ultimate faith that Wilson can bring them back from anything.

Newton's knock was that he doesn't play from behind very well, pouts, and gives up when he gets too far behind. He started to get over that a little last year, but I think this last (and biggest ) game drives it home that he isn't rock solid.

Does anyone really think that the Panthers would've fought that hard if they were down 31-0 like the Seahawks were ? No way does Newton take the towel off his head and come out to battle in that 2nd half.

 

[MVP53]

The controversy surrounding not giving the ball to Lynch on the one yard line or Cam not diving on the fumble?

I think the interception was more heart breaking but I think Cam's actions may damage the team more (combined a bit with the fact that I don't think Cam is the leader Wilson is to be able to recover from it).

Still think its the play call (even though I don't think it was that bad).

As bad as Cam's business decision was, that game was already pretty much over. That may have been the nail, but let's be honest, the coffin was shut. Plus, it was one man (or whatever you want to call Cam)

I think after the interception in 49, Seahawks players were questioning each other. Seahawks coaches were questioning the players. Player were questioning coaches. The fact that no one knew who to point the finger at. Was it Pete's directive and poor time management? Bevell's play call? Wilson's underthrow? Kearse's non-block? Lockette's effort?

Add to that the shock of it. The sudden finality. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Down 6 with 4 minutes left and you've got the league MVP playing QB for you? The game was hardly over at that point. At least, that shouldn't have been Carolina or Newton's attitude.

Against that defense on that day, yeah, the game was over. Even if Newton or someone else recovers for the Panthers, its 4th and 15+ yards. You punt the ball and have first stop the Broncos and second drive the length of the field against a defense that yielded, what, 160 yards all game?

Down 2 scores with 4 minutes left, against that D, I'd agree with you. But, down 6? All it takes is 1 play. Safety falls down, or a deep PI call to get you in scoring position. Seen it with the Hawks. Was it that '13 9er game? Hawks dominated on D all day, but all it took was one blown assignment, and Frank Gore goes for 50+.

 

[TwistedHusky]

How couldn't it be the Panthers' loss?

That mistake by Cam is going to haunt him for YEARS.

Giving up in a winnable game is very likely to be known as "Camming It"

Even more significant, that is 2 trips to the SB with no wins. Next one they are going to have the spectre of the Buffalo Bills hanging over them.

But worse, Cam went from a guy that the NFL was doing its best to market as the 'Next Big Thing' to a guy that no sponsor is going to want to touch (who wants to be associated with a gutless petulant quitter?). That is your leader and the face of your franchise. How do you reconcile that? Well, you have to push forth another leader - but that is going to cause conflict within the team.

There is no way he can continue to be the leader of that team without a massive Mea Culpa moment and I don't think he is mentally capable of even understanding this. So I don't see him giving up the sceptre. There is bound to be division in that locker room next year.

When their schedule comes back to earth, that blame is going to be pointed all around. I think he will collapse under that weight just like he collapsed under the weight of trying to come back down 6 in a winnable game.

And don't forget they will start to lose people too. Norman is already clamoring for a contract. Other guys on that line are going to be very attractive soon.

This is the kind of loss that either leads to a SB run or a complete implosion. I don't see their QB having the mental toughness or leadership credibility to pull everyone together and refocus them for another run. Which means implosion is more likely.

We had veterans who had been there, and had the fortune to lose to a team that nobody would blame us too much for losing to. We never got called out for choking, that was just Brady being Brady. Very different.

 

[253hawk]

Down 2 scores with 4 minutes left, against that D, I'd agree with you. But, down 6? All it takes is 1 play. Safety falls down, or a deep PI call to get you in scoring position. Seen it with the Hawks. Was it that '13 9er game? Hawks dominated on D all day, but all it took was one blown assignment, and Frank Gore goes for 50+.

Well, blown assignment and a blown call...kinda hard for Sherm to get anywhere when he was being held by SB CHAMPION VERNON DAVIS.

 

[daveyoung52]

Good post,good point, really wish we'd had the right cleats.

 

[scutterhawk]

The controversy surrounding not giving the ball to Lynch on the one yard line or Cam not diving on the fumble?

I think the interception was more heart breaking but I think Cam's actions may damage the team more (combined a bit with the fact that I don't think Cam is the leader Wilson is to be able to recover from it).

There was a culmination of missed plays on both Offense AND Defense that cost us SB 49, so to me?, it wasn't just that ONE play, or even just ONE play-call.
Losing by such a small point differential just adds to the angst, and blurs the reasoning.
All you have to do is read through all the posts pertaining to that game, and all the chatter seems to point to that one particular Missed-Play, or Play Call.
Billicheat took advantage of the injuries to the Seahawks Defense, (especially in the Secondary), and their inability to stop Brady from eating up the 14 point cushion, was one of the reasons that it even came down to "The Play"
IF you buy into the whole "Defense Wins Championships", like the Seahawks Defense did in SB 48, and like the Bronco's did in yesterdays SB 50. then the loses by the Seahawks in SB 49, and the Panthers loss was because the Defenses weren't able to make critical plays when they were needed the most.
As for Newton?, there were signs that it was all coming apart before the 4th quarter even began, when he threw his juvenile tantrum on the sidelines, (typical Cam Newton) and his QUIT on going after his own fumble, showed a real lack of leadership, ESPECIALLY for an MVP Quarterback in such an epic game.
There is NO COMPARRISON, between Newton & Wilson....... NONE !! We saw Newton QUIT, and lose his composure yesterday, while Wilson has NEVER vented his frustrations like that, for all the world to see.
Wilson took the blame for almost every one of his losses in ALL his Post Game interviews, SO, If the Quarterback is the leader of the team like everyone is saying, then the behavior of Cam Newton Yesterday ( especially in the Post Game Interview, where he abruptly quit, and walked out, want to talk about "Damaging To a Team"?

 

[Vancanhawksfan]

I don't know how you can even compare last year's game to Cam in this one when you ask what is more "damaging"?!?!

In last year's Super Bowl It was one play. The final play of the game. And the guys ran it and it didn't work. Period. End of story. If they succeeded on that play they are two time champions instead of one time champs. They were good enough to win that game and no one can deny them that. And everyone played their hearts out.

No one acted cowardly. No one outright blew an assignment. The opposition player made an incredible play on the ball and won that competition. This happens all the time on every down in the NFL. One team and some players win on a down and the others lose and so it goes.


However, Newton out and out bailed on that fumble play. He mailed it in. He was a coward and this will affect how his teammates view him as a teammate and as a leader. There are guys on that team that have put their bodies on the line their entire careers and that entire season and that entire game, and they would have killed or died to get that ball back. And to see Newton cower in fear will not bode well for their future relationships.

He's a chump and he really should change his nickname because no freaking Superman in any comic book I've ever read would have jumped back like a scared 10 year old girl like that.

 

[HawkGA]

In a vacuum, the interception at the 1 yard line is infinitely worse on so many levels. But I think the pain Panthers fans feel now is worse than the pain I felt last year as a Hawks fan. When Seattle blew it, it really sucked of course, but the Seahawks had just won the SB the year before, and were favorites to return the year after. Carolina has never won a SB, and after one of the most charmed seasons in NFL history, they had to feel like 'destiny' was on their side going into SB50. A loss like this makes Panthers fans wonder when or if their team will ever win the big one. That's not something we as Hawks fans had to deal with after XLIX.

I think from the fan perspective last year was worse (though like you said, having won the previous year took the sting out). But I think from a team perspective, Cam's might well be worse.

 

[Vancanhawksfan]

I thought it took us about 10 games, including the pre-season games to get over the manner in which we lost the SB.
Ultimately, we lost the HFA and any chance of coming back this year.

It took our coaches 10 games to figure out the defensive backfield needed to lose Cary Williams and it took 10 games for our revamped offensive line to figure out how to keep Wilson from getting killed. Add to that the Kam Chancellor holdout and it spelled out a slow start for the Hawks. That didn't have anything to do with the Super Bowl loss.

If you say so, Pete C and Russell say other wise.

What do you expect them to say? Lay the blame all on a specific player and that their O linemen sucked? They would never say that regardless of what they believed.

Are you saying that Williams and our O line weren't the problems in the first 10 games?

 

[scutterhawk]

The biggest difference between these teams is that the Seahawks never give up. They have ultimate faith that Wilson can bring them back from anything.

Newton's knock was that he doesn't play from behind very well, pouts, and gives up when he gets too far behind. He started to get over that a little last year, but I think this last (and biggest ) game drives it home that he isn't rock solid.

Does anyone really think that the Panthers would've fought that hard if they were down 31-0 like the Seahawks were ? No way does Newton take the towel off his head and come out to battle in that 2nd half.

Couldn't have said it better ^ :th2thumbs:

 

[Vancanhawksfan]

The controversy surrounding not giving the ball to Lynch on the one yard line or Cam not diving on the fumble?

I think the interception was more heart breaking but I think Cam's actions may damage the team more (combined a bit with the fact that I don't think Cam is the leader Wilson is to be able to recover from it).

Still think its the play call (even though I don't think it was that bad).

As bad as Cam's business decision was, that game was already pretty much over. That may have been the nail, but let's be honest, the coffin was shut. Plus, it was one man (or whatever you want to call Cam)

I think after the interception in 49, Seahawks players were questioning each other. Seahawks coaches were questioning the players. Player were questioning coaches. The fact that no one knew who to point the finger at. Was it Pete's directive and poor time management? Bevell's play call? Wilson's underthrow? Kearse's non-block? Lockette's effort?

Add to that the shock of it. The sudden finality. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Down 6 with 4 minutes left and you've got the league MVP playing QB for you? The game was hardly over at that point. At least, that shouldn't have been Carolina or Newton's attitude.

Against that defense on that day, yeah, the game was over. Even if Newton or someone else recovers for the Panthers, its 4th and 15+ yards. You punt the ball and have first stop the Broncos and second drive the length of the field against a defense that yielded, what, 160 yards all game?

Then you've made the case that the Panthers and Newton never had a hope to begin with because, based on what you're saying, if they can't possibly win when down by 6 with the league MVP then maybe they simply weren't good enough to win period. And to find out next that your MVP QB is a coward and bailed just to preserve his own body?!?! That will have to be a sobering thought for that locker room because if your league MVP can't lead your team out of the darkness to glory, then who can?

 

[chris98251]

A midget QB that was drafted in the third round that was never going to be more then a career back up. But that's just my opinion

 

[Hasselbeck]

The controversy surrounding not giving the ball to Lynch on the one yard line or Cam not diving on the fumble?

I think the interception was more heart breaking but I think Cam's actions may damage the team more (combined a bit with the fact that I don't think Cam is the leader Wilson is to be able to recover from it).

The former a lot more than the latter. Even if Cam dives into that pile, I don't know how much it changes the game. Carolina's offense only mustered one good drive all game.

Flip side, you can play the "what-if" game on Lynch .. but 99 out of 100 times he not only scores there, but he walks in untouched. The Patriots only hope was to get the ball back with 20-30 seconds and 2 TO's .. instead we gift wrapped them an unthinkable turnover

I think everyone is jumping on Cam prematurely here. It looked to me like he stepped back because the ball was rolling towards him and his Olineman was diving his direction. And it looked like he wanted to get a better angle to dive on it with his hands. Getting his feet in there would have done no good, and his feet were what was near the ball as it rolled towards him.

Nantz poisoned the well on that one.

I don't know how you can blame Jim Nantz for it. Dude backed off the loose ball. Had nothing to do with motion. He just didn't want to jump in that pile.

 

[12thbrah]

I think the Panthers loss by far. Don't forget the Seahawks already had won a championship and were playing for dynasty status last year. Lynch not getting the ball stings but we'll always have the dominating SB48 win to hang our hat on forever. With the Panthers they had a cake schedule this year so who knows if they will get another shot like this.

 

[redhawk253]

Hard to compare. We basically gave the championship away.. the panthers were never in it based on thr broncos putting pressure on cam and sayin basically youre gona have to take advantage of our aggressiveness at the line -

he folded.. he quit..

The hawks never quit it was just a crappy call to throw over the middle to one of our worst route runners.. you recover from that.. cam was beat down and gave up like he accepted he wasnt good enough. Thats gona be tough to overcome especially if he makes it back to the playoffs ever

 

[fenderbender123]

The controversy surrounding not giving the ball to Lynch on the one yard line or Cam not diving on the fumble?

I think the interception was more heart breaking but I think Cam's actions may damage the team more (combined a bit with the fact that I don't think Cam is the leader Wilson is to be able to recover from it).

The former a lot more than the latter. Even if Cam dives into that pile, I don't know how much it changes the game. Carolina's offense only mustered one good drive all game.

Flip side, you can play the "what-if" game on Lynch .. but 99 out of 100 times he not only scores there, but he walks in untouched. The Patriots only hope was to get the ball back with 20-30 seconds and 2 TO's .. instead we gift wrapped them an unthinkable turnover

I think everyone is jumping on Cam prematurely here. It looked to me like he stepped back because the ball was rolling towards him and his Olineman was diving his direction. And it looked like he wanted to get a better angle to dive on it with his hands. Getting his feet in there would have done no good, and his feet were what was near the ball as it rolled towards him.

Nantz poisoned the well on that one.

I don't know how you can blame Jim Nantz for it. Dude backed off the loose ball. Had nothing to do with motion. He just didn't want to jump in that pile.

Yup. And I even made the same observation before Jim Nantz mentioned it on the replay. I'm sure a lot of people did. Nantz's comments were inconsequential to the amount of attention that play is getting.

 

[nepahawk]

I'd rather lose on a poorly executed play than lose the ball and therefor the game due to lack of effort.

I totally agree with this!!!
Cam basically made a business decision and put his welfare above the teams.
He gave up on the ball and the team!!

 

[bjornanderson21]

The controversy surrounding not giving the ball to Lynch on the one yard line or Cam not diving on the fumble?

I think the interception was more heart breaking but I think Cam's actions may damage the team more (combined a bit with the fact that I don't think Cam is the leader Wilson is to be able to recover from it).

Throwing the INT to lose the game is 10000 times worse than anything cam did. It isn't even close.

You might as well ask us what is more important, winning a preseason game or winning the Super Bowl. It's not even in the same universe.