What's wrong with our D?

[Willyeye]

We have lost some great defensive players the last few years. Some of them were probably getting older anyway, and their days were numbered, but as a unit, this defense brought out the best in even some mediocre players. I think a lot of players excelled because of the system they played in. And Dan Quinn was the best defensive coordinator in the NFL. Here are the problems I believe are responsible for the defensive collapses and lapses that have led to a 5-5 season:

D-LINE:

The defense starts with the inside linemen. Mebane has NOT had a great year. Earlier in his career, Bane was having seasons with nearly 60 tackles. His production has steadily gone down, and he is on pace to get 1 sack and 17 tackles this year. That puts his production at about 30% of his good years. This leads to less pressure on the opposing offense. And that's where the defense starts...with pressure in the middle.

Rubin is okay as a DT, but face it, he's not setting the world on fire. Hill was going gang-busters early in the year, but he got hurt in the Bengals game, and in the games he's played since, his production has gone way down. King covered while Hill was hurt, but he had few snaps, and mostly, Hill's snaps went to Bane and Rubin. King is not the answer, so basically, Bane, Rubin and Hill are our guys right now, and none of the 3 are playing anywhere near the level they have in the past. Mebane is probably just getting too old and he's on his last leg. Hill is great when he's healthy, but he hasn't been able to stay healthy. Rubin is mediocre compared to McDaniel and Kevin Williams. So for me, the Inside D-Line position is a shell of what it was last year. We are getting very little pressure on the middle of the opposing offense. THIS AFFECTS THE ENTIRE DEFENSE, BECAUSE AS I SAID, THIS IS WHERE YOUR D STARTS.

Just like last year, Bennett and Avril are killing it. Clark, Marsh and Dobbs seem to be doing well enough to relieve those guys as needed. We probably have the best outside D-Line pressure in the NFL...thank god, because if we had to rely on our DT's for all the pressure, we'd be the #32 D in the league. The lack of a decent inside D-Line is probably the reason that Avril and Bennett have to play so many snaps, and therefore the reason guys like Clark and Marsh have barely been given a chance to play this year.

LINEBACKERS:

Wagner had a tough start this season, and I'm not sure why. He missed the Panthers game, and had a couple of off weeks afterwards. But I'm thinking he's almost back to normal the last couple of weeks. Wright is having a GREAT season. Irvin really came on strong this year, and I have a feeling his knee may have started bothering him a few weeks ago, and then he did something worse to it in the Cards game. We really missed him in Week 11. I just hope he isn't out too long. Morgan replaced him this week, but face it, Morgan is no Bruce Irvin. Either is Pierre-Louis...he seemed kind of lost. I think on some pass-rushing downs, they added either Marsh or Clark to replace Irvin. Wow...it took 4 guys to replace one Bruce. The Hawks really need to pay him for next year...Irvin is an important cog in the LB position group. Wagner, Wright and Irvin feed off each other...and they do an incredible job. One of the best LB groups in the NFL, if not the best.

LOB (DB's):

The LOB is a complicated group. I think this group was on top of the world late in the 2014 season. They were killing it. Even Maxwell played well when he was part of that unbelievably incredible group...as did Simon and Burley. With Lane in the slot they were almost invincible. But the injury bug hit this group HARD. Thomas- dislocated shoulder; Sherman- ligament damage in elbow; Kam- torn MCL knee; Simon- dislocated shoulder; Lane was hurt so bad, it physically hurts me too, so I can't talk about it; Maxwell- sick and missed the Panthers playoff game...didn't seem quite up to par with everybody else playing injured. The demise of this group at the end of the year is most likely the single most important factor that cost us a repeat in SB49.

I believe that the LOB is half athletic and half psyche. For 3 years, they had a swagger. They were unbelievable. I think as individuals, they would have been great players, but not at the historical heights they reached as a group. A lot has happened since then that affected this group. Losing SB49 was devastating for these guys. Then to come back from injuries and wanting retribution for what they lost in SB49, only to have Kam screw over his brothers, I think it was too much for them to handle. They lost their swagger/mojo. They are kind of like babes in the woods...lost. I knew when Foles carved them up in Week 1, this would be a difficult season for the LOB. The athletic part of their game is still there, but I think the mental aspect of the LOB is lacking...of course this has been verified by Earl's recent rantings. Something just isn't right. Add to this the lack of any kind of inside D-Line pressure and a new coach with some different ideas and schemes, and you have a group that is at times struggling. Add to this a Cary Williams, a guy who might fit in the LOB if there were no other issues, but a guy who has struggled to make an identity in an LOB that is struggling mentally.

Perhaps if Lane comes back soon, the season could still be saved for the LOB. We'll just have to wait and see. I have faith in them, as I do for the entire team. This team is still good enough to be 10-0 this year. They just have some problems and they can't seem to get past them and put it all together. I'm still hoping for an 11-5 season

 

[chawx]

I think this post is 100% spot on.

D-Line: I can't remember a time when I've seen QBs stepping up on us so much and completing balls downfield because our interior pass rush is non-existent. In years past, Avril, Irvin or Bennett would get around their man and force the QB up which was EXACTLY what we wanted because we knew Bane would be in there to clean em up. Not so much this year. Palmer was allowed to take one or two steps up when the pass rush came around and pretty much have a clean pocket to pass from.

LBs: Couldn't agree more with your assessment. We need to keep Irvin on this team. Him, BWagz, and KJ are a game-changing, dominant force that offenses have to plan for. Simply put, their play alone can win us games. I'd love to see KPL or Morgan come up—but so far, it's not happening. If we lose Irvin, it's going to be a noticeable drop-off.

DBs: Mentally, they lack trust as a unit. CW FINALLY getting benched and Lane coming back is probably the two things that can propel this team into the playoffs. When Earl and Kam are free to focus solely on their assignments and not helping the other guys so much, we'll get back to that dominant force we once had. Honestly, I think one big play (ie. a tip-drill pick from Sherm to Kam or Earl, or a crushing blow from Kam forcing the ball to pop up and Sherm to pick it off) will ignite the fire in these guys again. We just need one really cool play to happen for these guys and I think we'll all see a light go off for them collectively.

Here's to the rest of the season, mates. It's going to be a fun ride....

 

[Attyla the Hawk]

Lack of pocket collapse via the interior. Our ability to collapse the pocket is still bad.

Secondary is not playing up to par. This has more to do with Thomas and Sherman. They have allowed more big play TDs in these 10 games than their last 25. We can bitch about Cary Williams all we want, but our name stars aren't playing to their contracts.

LBs are playing phenomenal ball. Probably the best we've seen since Carroll has arrived here. Honestly the only big plays this defense is producing all year is coming at the hands of Wright or Wagner.

If I had to pin the issue, it's that Thomas and Sherman are not playing to standard. Not only are teams not afraid to go after them this year, they are producing game winning plays even down the left seam where BOTH are lurking.

I'd say it's mostly just due to a down year. Cary Williams is certainly a culpable scapegoat. But if you think this is fixable by making one roster move, you're going to be disappointed. We simply need to play to the talent level. Having 4 picks on the year is abysmal. Having surrendered so many game winning touchdown passes is crippling.

 

[acbass]

I agree. I think the interior pass rush is a real problem. Avril and Bennett can fly off the ball, but that is mostly negated by the QB being able to simply take two steps forward. Maybe we need to move Bennett around more and maybe line him up more at DT and see if he can generate anything. I feel the second tier guys, like Marsh, can still generate a decent enough outside rush. I think you're also spot on with the LBs. Irvin is earning that paycheck next year. I just hope it's with us. The LOB is a mystery all unto itself. Yes, there is a new DC, but his scheme isn't all that different. The secondary scheme we run is very simple, but it's always been effective. This year there seems to be a lack of communication or something. Maybe they are all trying to compensate for Williams. I haven't seen the All 22, but I would guess that Earl is having to constantly cheat over to his side and teams have been able to take advantage of that. Thomas doesn't seem to be lurking over the top on either side, which really does create a true 1-1 with Sherm or Kam. I'm very excited about the fact Lane is coming back. I know he's been more of a slot guy but he has the size to play outside. Obviously, Pete and Kris aren't overly happy with Williams. Benching him late in the game says a lot. Plus, they seemed to play a lot better with Shead in there. I'm very interested to see how they are going to use Lane. At the end of the day I think Burley has played well enough to stay on the slot guy. I think they will give Lane an opportunity to be the #2. I recall Maxwell missing a game and Lane playing outside, and I think he did alright. I really do believe fixing the number 2 CB spot will lead to a MUCH improved LOB. They have to trust each other and not try to cover a weak spot. Hopefully, Lane is the answer. If they decide to keep him inside I will be very interested to see what they do opposite Sherman. I know I've had enough of Williams and I think the coaching staff may feel the same way. Let's see. Go Hawks!!

 

[Seymour]

A little much to read about what is "wrong" with the #2 overall ranked defense.

 

[seahawks08]

A little much to read about what is "wrong" with the #2 overall ranked defense.

I don't know about stats, I only look at wins and losses. I would completely put it on the defense on the comeback wins, Rams, GB, Bengals, Panthers, Arizona Cardinals. All come back wins. I think the Cardinals I would give a pass since the defense got two turn overs I think, but come back wins are killing us. An elite defense would never let teams come back on the 4th quarter and win this way. I know the offense is still work in progress, but the defense I had hoped would have been in a much higher level or in par as last year. I don't see that, I see flashes of greatness like the Chicago, Detroit, Dallas and 49ers, but we were playing backup QBs or QB's in the decline. Stats can be one thing, but if you watch all the games this year, 4th quarter come backs are the most prominent thing that comes to mind. For a defense of this caliber, the fans never expects teams to come back and win like that, in fact we used to be the 4th quarter comeback win kind of team, now we have good teams coming back on us. I know we have new coaches, there might be changes in the scheme and everything, I hope they figure out a way to cover TE's. I am nervous about the Pittsburgh team, but if our unit executes well, we are back to greatness.

 

[hawkfan68]

At first, I thought the Rubin signing would be great. However, he hasn't lived up to the excitement. Rubin cost them a DT they should have kept - T.Y. McGill. One thing McGill did was provide a consistent interior pass rush. Which is invisible so far this season. Bennett, Avril, and Irvin have done well providing pass rush from the outside.

 

[CalgaryHawk]

At first, I thought the Rubin signing would be great. However, he hasn't lived up to the excitement. Rubin cost them a DT they should have kept - T.Y. McGill. One thing McGill did was provide a consistent interior pass rush. Which is invisible so far this season. Bennett, Avril, and Irvin have done well providing pass rush from the outside.

I would have liked to have kept McGill also for long-term potential, but he only has 4 tackles and 0 sacks on the year for the Colts, so I don't think he would have been a difference maker in his rookie year. Apparently he didn't play the scheme very soundly according to Carroll and that's probably why he didn't make the team. But I haven't watched Colts games so maybe McGill is generating pressure that's not showing up in the stats.

Except on obvious running downs where you'd play Bennett at end, I would play Bennett inside at Dtackle more to generate more inside pressure and let a combination of Clark, Irvin, and Marsh play his snaps on the outside.

 

[Exittium]

I agree with everything minus pass rushers. Ourbpass rushers are dominant. The issue ive been seeing is the refs are so focused on us, thsg alot ALOT of oline we have faced just hold Avril, Bennett and Irvin. Because 9 times out of 10 if they're not being held the QB is sacked or forced to throw early. Thsy hasn't been the case this year. They've consistently been held by the Olines we've faced.

 

[Willyeye]

Lack of pocket collapse via the interior. Our ability to collapse the pocket is still bad.

Secondary is not playing up to par. This has more to do with Thomas and Sherman. They have allowed more big play TDs in these 10 games than their last 25. We can bitch about Cary Williams all we want, but our name stars aren't playing to their contracts.

LBs are playing phenomenal ball. Probably the best we've seen since Carroll has arrived here. Honestly the only big plays this defense is producing all year is coming at the hands of Wright or Wagner.

If I had to pin the issue, it's that Thomas and Sherman are not playing to standard. Not only are teams not afraid to go after them this year, they are producing game winning plays even down the left seam where BOTH are lurking.

I'd say it's mostly just due to a down year. Cary Williams is certainly a culpable scapegoat. But if you think this is fixable by making one roster move, you're going to be disappointed. We simply need to play to the talent level. Having 4 picks on the year is abysmal. Having surrendered so many game winning touchdown passes is crippling.

All your points are well taken. The only thing I wonder, is there any possibility that Williams is affecting Sherman and Earl's performance because of trust issues with Cary? Could they be overcompensating for what they believe to be Williams' shortcomings in coverage? Williams had some impressive seasons with the Ravens. In 2012, Cary had 75 total tackles, 17 passes defensed, and 4 interceptions. Is it possible that his performance has diminished with age or that he just doesn't fit well with Sherman and Earl? Or is it that Sherm, Kam and Earl aren't supporting him enough? And how much does the lack of pocket collapse cause the opposing QB's to be a much better passer? Foles anyone?

 

[Exittium]

Lack of pocket collapse via the interior. Our ability to collapse the pocket is still bad.

Secondary is not playing up to par. This has more to do with Thomas and Sherman. They have allowed more big play TDs in these 10 games than their last 25. We can bitch about Cary Williams all we want, but our name stars aren't playing to their contracts.

LBs are playing phenomenal ball. Probably the best we've seen since Carroll has arrived here. Honestly the only big plays this defense is producing all year is coming at the hands of Wright or Wagner.

If I had to pin the issue, it's that Thomas and Sherman are not playing to standard. Not only are teams not afraid to go after them this year, they are producing game winning plays even down the left seam where BOTH are lurking.

I'd say it's mostly just due to a down year. Cary Williams is certainly a culpable scapegoat. But if you think this is fixable by making one roster move, you're going to be disappointed. We simply need to play to the talent level. Having 4 picks on the year is abysmal. Having surrendered so many game winning touchdown passes is crippling.

All your points are well taken. The only thing I wonder, is there any possibility that Williams is affecting Sherman and Earl's performance because of trust issues with Cary? Could they be overcompensating for what they believe to be Williams' shortcomings in coverage? Williams had some impressive seasons with the Ravens. In 2012, Cary had 75 total tackles, 17 passes defensed, and 4 interceptions. Is it possible that his performance has diminished with age or that he just doesn't fit well with Sherman and Earl? Or is it that Sherm, Kam and Earl aren't supporting him enough?

Like someone else has said, Once shead came in the defense seemed to gel. Shead may not be better or faster than williams but he plays within the scheme. Williams consistently looks lost and confused. And I think Kam, Earl and Sherm are just distracted enough by Williams inept ability to understand the scheme that its affcted their play.

 

[Willyeye]

I agree. I think the interior pass rush is a real problem. Avril and Bennett can fly off the ball, but that is mostly negated by the QB being able to simply take two steps forward. Maybe we need to move Bennett around more and maybe line him up more at DT and see if he can generate anything. I feel the second tier guys, like Marsh, can still generate a decent enough outside rush. I think you're also spot on with the LBs. Irvin is earning that paycheck next year. I just hope it's with us. The LOB is a mystery all unto itself. Yes, there is a new DC, but his scheme isn't all that different. The secondary scheme we run is very simple, but it's always been effective. This year there seems to be a lack of communication or something. Maybe they are all trying to compensate for Williams. I haven't seen the All 22, but I would guess that Earl is having to constantly cheat over to his side and teams have been able to take advantage of that. Thomas doesn't seem to be lurking over the top on either side, which really does create a true 1-1 with Sherm or Kam. I'm very excited about the fact Lane is coming back. I know he's been more of a slot guy but he has the size to play outside. Obviously, Pete and Kris aren't overly happy with Williams. Benching him late in the game says a lot. Plus, they seemed to play a lot better with Shead in there. I'm very interested to see how they are going to use Lane. At the end of the day I think Burley has played well enough to stay on the slot guy. I think they will give Lane an opportunity to be the #2. I recall Maxwell missing a game and Lane playing outside, and I think he did alright. I really do believe fixing the number 2 CB spot will lead to a MUCH improved LOB. They have to trust each other and not try to cover a weak spot. Hopefully, Lane is the answer. If they decide to keep him inside I will be very interested to see what they do opposite Sherman. I know I've had enough of Williams and I think the coaching staff may feel the same way. Let's see. Go Hawks!!

Does it also seem like Sherm is playing a lot less zone coverage and a lot more man coverage? Is that due to compensating for Cary Williams? Maybe you're right, and it has nothing to do with Richard at all...more to do with Williams. This really is a HUGE issue, and if Lane comes back this week, I'm hoping the LOB can start getting back to basics.

 

[Willyeye]

A little much to read about what is "wrong" with the #2 overall ranked defense.

I think that might be an oversimplification. There is definitely something different about this year's defense as compared to the last 3 years. They are ranked #7 in points allowed after being #1 in that stat for 3 consecutive seasons. And then losing 5- 4th quarter leads in just 9 games is scary. And if there were stats kept for 4th quarter comebacks allowed and game winning drives allowed, I'm pretty sure the Seahawks are leading those stats in the NFL this year. All 5 of our losses could very easily have been wins.

 

[Willyeye]

The clap.

I'm probably just an idiot, but what does that actually mean? I'm sure I'm missing something.

 

[Seymour]

A little much to read about what is "wrong" with the #2 overall ranked defense.

I think that might be an oversimplification. There is definitely something different about this year's defense as compared to the last 3 years. They are ranked #7 in points allowed after being #1 in that stat for 3 consecutive seasons. And then losing 5- 4th quarter leads in just 9 games is scary. And if there were stats kept for 4th quarter comebacks allowed and game winning drives allowed, I'm pretty sure the Seahawks are leading those stats in the NFL this year. All 5 of our losses could very easily have been wins.

No doubt there is something different. We've been supplying the rest of the league with DB's 2 years straight. Guys got payed. Depth took a hit. Kam got greedy and that is still an issue. Offense is not controlling the clock and sustaining drives. And we have a 1st year coordinator.

AND.....we have the #2 D. But all this has been stated ad infinitum. I'm personally not worried about D.

 

[RussB]

 

[Willyeye]

I agree with everything minus pass rushers. Ourbpass rushers are dominant. The issue ive been seeing is the refs are so focused on us, thsg alot ALOT of oline we have faced just hold Avril, Bennett and Irvin. Because 9 times out of 10 if they're not being held the QB is sacked or forced to throw early. Thsy hasn't been the case this year. They've consistently been held by the Olines we've faced.

I agree with this, but I know for a fact that our opposition was getting away with just as many holds last year. I guess I'm thinking this is nothing new. On the other hand, there is a HUGE decrease in pressure for the inside D-Line position. Having Mebane, a healthy Hill (when Mebane was out), McDaniel and Kevin Williams worked way better than this year's version.

 

[Eamon696]

The thing is, us giving up 4th quarter leads isnt entirely new for this team. Our defense gave up a few back in 2012, most notably the Atlanta playoff game.

 

[Willyeye]

The thing is, us giving up 4th quarter leads isnt entirely new for this team. Our defense gave up a few back in 2012, most notably the Atlanta playoff game.

True, but never 5 in a 9-game span.

 

[CurryStopstheRuns]

It got caught in the zipper.