The myth of overpaying for a QB

Sports Hernia

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lucky49":iqle5x5f said:
I'm honestly asking you hawk fans this not trying to troll or anything: do you really think wilson has been crucial to your success these past few years? if so, why? (by crucial i mean like REALLY, REALLY important not just important because obviously he's been important)
Yes. Look at the Hawks record since he got here.
With the o-line issues a "pocket passer" type would have gotten killed.

.....and as a 9'ers fan it has to freak you out when he gets outside the pocket looking for that wide open reciever or he takes off running for a 20 yard gain....


That's one of the reasons I hated playing the Elway teams as there was multiple ways he could and would beat you.


IS RW perfect and without flaws? Of course not, but I don't see Seattle getting to back to back Super Bowls without him.
 

jewhawk

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lucky49":jpxmc8uv said:
I'm honestly asking you hawk fans this not trying to troll or anything: do you really think wilson has been crucial to your success these past few years? if so, why? (by crucial i mean like REALLY, REALLY important not just important because obviously he's been important)
Yes. I'll let the Seahawks' offensive numbers speak for themselves (league ranking in parentheses).

2010: 4.9 yards per play (29), 5.8 net yards per passing attempt (27), 3.7 yards per rushing attempt (30), 14.8% drives ending in turnovers (21), 24.2 yards per drive (22), 1.35 points per drive (30), 2:15 time of possession per drive (30), -17.3% offensive DVOA (29), -12.3% passing DVOA (29), -11.3% rushing DVOA (28)

2011: 4.8 y/p (28), 5.6 ny/pa (26), 4.0 y/ra (24), 11.6% TO/d (14), 24.4 y/d (30), 1.44 pts/d (26), 2:18 TOP/d (30), -8.7% off DVOA (22), 0.1% pass DVOA (21), -1.6% rush DVOA (14)

2012: 5.8 y/p (7), 6.9 ny/pa (8), 4.8 y/ra (5), 10.0% TO/d (7), 32.9 y/d (8), 2.19 pts/d (7), 3:00 TOP/d (1), 18.5% off DVOA (4), 37.3% pass DVOA (4), 16.5% rush DVOA (1)

2013: 5.6 y/p (9), 7.0 ny/pa (6), 4.3 y/ra (12), 9.3% TO/d (6), 29.7 y/d (11), 2.12 pts/d (8), 2:41 TOP/d (6), 9.4% off DVOA (7), 27.4% pass DVOA (8), 6.4% rush DVOA (7)

2014: 5.9 y/p (7), 6.6 ny/pa (13), 5.3 y/ra (1), 6.9% TO/d (1), 34.2 y/d (5), 2.13 pts/d (8), 2:58 TOP/d (2), 16.8% off DVOA (5), 21.0% pass DVOA (10), 29.0% rush DVOA (1)

Pete Carroll took over in 2010 and we traded for Lynch a few games into 2010. The offense transformed from a terrible one to a very good if not elite one in 2012 with the only major personnel change being Wilson. Don't let the narrative of the defense carrying the team fool you. Wilson doesn't have eye-popping bulk stats because the offense is slow paced compared to other teams, but it has been a very efficient offense without much talent outside of Wilson and Lynch. I also believe that Wilson helps Lynch in the running game more than Lynch helps the passing game. Wilson has been great in obvious passing situations (3rd and long, 2 minute drives, etc.) where there isn't much threat of a run, while the running game has struggled in obvious running situations (goal line, 3rd/4th and short) where there isn't as much of a threat of Wilson burning the defense.
 

Spin Doctor

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Sports Hernia":133ieec9 said:
lucky49":133ieec9 said:
I'm honestly asking you hawk fans this not trying to troll or anything: do you really think wilson has been crucial to your success these past few years? if so, why? (by crucial i mean like REALLY, REALLY important not just important because obviously he's been important)
Yes. Look at the Hawks record since he got here.
With the o-line issues a "pocket passer" type would have gotten killed.

.....and as a 9'ers fan it has to freak you out when he gets outside the pocket looking for that wide open reciever or he takes off running for a 20 yard gain....


That's one of the reasons I hated playing the Elway teams as there was multiple ways he could and would beat you.


IS RW perfect and without flaws? Of course not, but I don't see Seattle getting to back to back Super Bowls without him.
I highly doubt that a competent pocket passer would have been killed behind the Seahawks O-Line. I keep hearing this argument repeated, and I do not buy it at all. Our O-Line is not the greatest, but it is certainly not as bad as statistics say. Our O-Lineman have the hardest job when it comes to pass protection. Wilson makes their job extremely difficult, people keep saying "it's the O-Lines fault" but Wilson actually plays a big part in the sack and pressure numbers.

Russell Wilson holds the football longer than any QB in the league. His style makes it much harder for his lineman to block for him. He also has not grasped how to step up in the pocket, his first instinct is to bail from the pocket and use his elusiveness to get guys open. That tendency will naturally lead to more sacks, and pressures. Wilson is his own biggest enemy here. If we had a QB such as Brady, or Manning behind our line they would either change the play at the LOS if they noticed something array, and they would get rid of the ball much quicker. The sack, and pressures would be way down in this scenario.

This is my biggest gripe with Wilson. As a conventional passer his skillset is lacking. This will be very important when he is paid, as I think we will eventually have to shift to being a more offensive oriented team. It happened to the Patriots after Brady got paid, and it happened to the Steelers after Roethlisberger got paid.

Wilson will no longer be able to have the luxury of being on one of the most run dominated teams in the league. In fact we're near the bottom when it comes to pass attempts. He will no longer be able to play the same kind of football and expect to be successful. We will no longer be able to have an offense that disappears for large stretches of time.

I say this because right now I think Wilson is mediocre as a conventional passer. He is bad at identifying the blitz, he is not very good at switching plays even when he does, and he is not very good at timing routes or the short passing game. This offense is simplistic and it masks Wilson's biggest flaws, I don't think he is a QB that succeed in any system -- I think he needs to be in a certain offense, under certain circumstances to be successful.

I like Wilson, I think he is one of the better QB's in the NFL -- in fact I put him near the bottom of the top 10 QBs. He's not easily replaceable and he definitely helped us win our fair share of games. That being said, I wouldn't pay him a penny over 19 million per year. I think that the current Seahawks could still be 10 win team without him, even with a journeyman at QB.
 

Scottemojo

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Spin Doctor":30qzh5qs said:
Sports Hernia":30qzh5qs said:
lucky49":30qzh5qs said:
I'm honestly asking you hawk fans this not trying to troll or anything: do you really think wilson has been crucial to your success these past few years? if so, why? (by crucial i mean like REALLY, REALLY important not just important because obviously he's been important)
Yes. Look at the Hawks record since he got here.
With the o-line issues a "pocket passer" type would have gotten killed.

.....and as a 9'ers fan it has to freak you out when he gets outside the pocket looking for that wide open reciever or he takes off running for a 20 yard gain....


That's one of the reasons I hated playing the Elway teams as there was multiple ways he could and would beat you.


IS RW perfect and without flaws? Of course not, but I don't see Seattle getting to back to back Super Bowls without him.
I highly doubt that a competent pocket passer would have been killed behind the Seahawks O-Line. I keep hearing this argument repeated, and I do not buy it at all. Our O-Line is not the greatest, but it is certainly not as bad as statistics say. Our O-Lineman have the hardest job when it comes to pass protection. Wilson makes their job extremely difficult, people keep saying "it's the O-Lines fault" but Wilson actually plays a big part in the sack and pressure numbers.

Russell Wilson holds the football longer than any QB in the league. His style makes it much harder for his lineman to block for him. He also has not grasped how to step up in the pocket, his first instinct is to bail from the pocket and use his elusiveness to get guys open. That tendency will naturally lead to more sacks, and pressures. Wilson is his own biggest enemy here. If we had a QB such as Brady, or Manning behind our line they would either change the play at the LOS if they noticed something array, and they would get rid of the ball much quicker. The sack, and pressures would be way down in this scenario.

This is my biggest gripe with Wilson. As a conventional passer his skillset is lacking. This will be very important when he is paid, as I think we will eventually have to shift to being a more offensive oriented team. It happened to the Patriots after Brady got paid, and it happened to the Steelers after Roethlisberger got paid.

Wilson will no longer be able to have the luxury of being on one of the most run dominated teams in the league. In fact we're near the bottom when it comes to pass attempts. He will no longer be able to play the same kind of football and expect to be successful. We will no longer be able to have an offense that disappears for large stretches of time.

I say this because right now I think Wilson is mediocre as a conventional passer. He is bad at identifying the blitz, he is not very good at switching plays even when he does, and he is not very good at timing routes or the short passing game. This offense is simplistic and it masks Wilson's biggest flaws, I don't think he is a QB that succeed in any system -- I think he needs to be in a certain offense, under certain circumstances to be successful.

I like Wilson, I think he is one of the better QB's in the NFL -- in fact I put him near the bottom of the top 10 QBs. He's not easily replaceable and he definitely helped us win our fair share of games. That being said, I wouldn't pay him a penny over 19 million per year. I think that the current Seahawks could still be 10 win team without him, even with a journeyman at QB.

I think you are completely wrong. Absolutely and unequivocally misguided and offbase.
In 2011 the Oline suffered a bunch of injuries, and a last season resurgence was quashed in the final two games when Jackson could not function behind replacements.

In 2012 Wilson learned the NFL game behind an inexperienced line, damn near took us to the NFCCG. In 2013 he pulled games out of his ass, like the game in Houston, behind a bunch of replacement players. 2014 was much the same, Wilson missing players on the line and winning. Cable gets a lot of credit for his line being so plug and play, but if Wilson was a pocket passer he would be as beat up as Jackson was in 2011. Add Wilson to that 2011 team and it makes the playoffs.

And therin lies his value.

As far as the rest, him not being a conventional QB, he is a 3 year vet on a play action offense. Put Brady on this team and he would suffer, is he a system QB?

The money will sort itself out. I read statements like yours about not a penny over 19 mil and laugh, I can't figure out which media pundit you are parroting or if you really think you are smarter than Seattle's GM should he disobey you and give Wilson 19,000,000.01 dollars per year.
 

Sports Hernia

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Scottemojo":1ziyltsg said:
Spin Doctor":1ziyltsg said:
Sports Hernia":1ziyltsg said:
lucky49":1ziyltsg said:
I'm honestly asking you hawk fans this not trying to troll or anything: do you really think wilson has been crucial to your success these past few years? if so, why? (by crucial i mean like REALLY, REALLY important not just important because obviously he's been important)
Yes. Look at the Hawks record since he got here.
With the o-line issues a "pocket passer" type would have gotten killed.

.....and as a 9'ers fan it has to freak you out when he gets outside the pocket looking for that wide open reciever or he takes off running for a 20 yard gain....


That's one of the reasons I hated playing the Elway teams as there was multiple ways he could and would beat you.


IS RW perfect and without flaws? Of course not, but I don't see Seattle getting to back to back Super Bowls without him.
I highly doubt that a competent pocket passer would have been killed behind the Seahawks O-Line. I keep hearing this argument repeated, and I do not buy it at all. Our O-Line is not the greatest, but it is certainly not as bad as statistics say. Our O-Lineman have the hardest job when it comes to pass protection. Wilson makes their job extremely difficult, people keep saying "it's the O-Lines fault" but Wilson actually plays a big part in the sack and pressure numbers.

Russell Wilson holds the football longer than any QB in the league. His style makes it much harder for his lineman to block for him. He also has not grasped how to step up in the pocket, his first instinct is to bail from the pocket and use his elusiveness to get guys open. That tendency will naturally lead to more sacks, and pressures. Wilson is his own biggest enemy here. If we had a QB such as Brady, or Manning behind our line they would either change the play at the LOS if they noticed something array, and they would get rid of the ball much quicker. The sack, and pressures would be way down in this scenario.

This is my biggest gripe with Wilson. As a conventional passer his skillset is lacking. This will be very important when he is paid, as I think we will eventually have to shift to being a more offensive oriented team. It happened to the Patriots after Brady got paid, and it happened to the Steelers after Roethlisberger got paid.

Wilson will no longer be able to have the luxury of being on one of the most run dominated teams in the league. In fact we're near the bottom when it comes to pass attempts. He will no longer be able to play the same kind of football and expect to be successful. We will no longer be able to have an offense that disappears for large stretches of time.

I say this because right now I think Wilson is mediocre as a conventional passer. He is bad at identifying the blitz, he is not very good at switching plays even when he does, and he is not very good at timing routes or the short passing game. This offense is simplistic and it masks Wilson's biggest flaws, I don't think he is a QB that succeed in any system -- I think he needs to be in a certain offense, under certain circumstances to be successful.

I like Wilson, I think he is one of the better QB's in the NFL -- in fact I put him near the bottom of the top 10 QBs. He's not easily replaceable and he definitely helped us win our fair share of games. That being said, I wouldn't pay him a penny over 19 million per year. I think that the current Seahawks could still be 10 win team without him, even with a journeyman at QB.

I think you are completely wrong. Absolutely and unequivocally misguided and offbase.
In 2011 the Oline suffered a bunch of injuries, and a last season resurgence was quashed in the final two games when Jackson could not function behind replacements.

In 2012 Wilson learned the NFL game behind an inexperienced line, damn near took us to the NFCCG. In 2013 he pulled games out of his ass, like the game in Houston, behind a bunch of replacement players. 2014 was much the same, Wilson missing players on the line and winning. Cable gets a lot of credit for his line being so plug and play, but if Wilson was a pocket passer he would be as beat up as Jackson was in 2011. Add Wilson to that 2011 team and it makes the playoffs.

And therin lies his value.

As far as the rest, him not being a conventional QB, he is a 3 year vet on a play action offense. Put Brady on this team and he would suffer, is he a system QB?

The money will sort itself out. I read statements like yours about not a penny over 19 mil and laugh, I can't figure out which media pundit you are parroting or if you really think you are smarter than Seattle's GM should he disobey you and give Wilson 19,000,000.01 dollars per year.
BINGO! Great response!
 

Marvin49

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Honestly, I kinda think its a moot point.

Whether they pay him as the highest paid QB in the league or a bit less, they are gonna pay him. Even if they do pay him the most, he won't be the highest paid for long because the cap is rising pretty dramatically over the next few years.

This was why the $$$ for Kap didn't faze me at all...in just a few years it ends up looking like a bargain.

Peeps can argue all they want about the wisdom of putting that much of your money in the QB basket and there is a point to be made about how much the Seahawks have benefitted from NOT having to pay him in the first 3 years of his contract, but that time is up. Ya gotta pay him whether you think he's Tom Brady/Peyton Manning/Aaron Rodgers or not. Its simply the price of doing business.

If you DON'T pay him...good luck with that. How long did it take to find him? Whether he's really "worth" that money is completely irrelevant. That's the price of doing business. Period.
 

Sgt. Largent

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SalishHawkFan":2fq8gv2l said:
Having an elite QB is what MADE THEM A GOOD TEAM.

Then why did the Saints and Broncos not win the SB last year?

You're oversimplifying a very complicated equation. Yes having an elite QB helps your team, but so do MANY other factors.

- team health
- drafting well to replace injured and lost free agents
- defense
- play calling
- schedule
- luck

If you're entire long winded point was that we can win with Russell making 20-25M a year, great. Cause that's what 90% of us also believe. But it's sure not the end all be all to winning more SB's, MANY other things have to happen as well.
 

Seahawkfan80

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Sgt. Largent":29k4sos1 said:
SalishHawkFan":29k4sos1 said:
Having an elite QB is what MADE THEM A GOOD TEAM.

Then why did the Saints and Broncos not win the SB last year?

You're oversimplifying a very complicated equation. Yes having an elite QB helps your team, but so do MANY other factors.

- team health
- drafting well to replace injured and lost free agents
- defense
- play calling
- schedule
- luck

If you're entire long winded point was that we can win with Russell making 20-25M a year, great. Cause that's what 90% of us also believe. But it's sure not the end all be all to winning more SB's, MANY other things have to happen as well.

Thought he was in Indy??? :sarcasm_off: :shock: :lol:
 

kearly

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Spin Doctor":1jrenzpy said:
I highly doubt that a competent pocket passer would have been killed behind the Seahawks O-Line.

That's fun to think about.

Peyton Manning could make our pass protection look good.

There are other QBs who could "survive" our pass pro. Big Ben leaps to mind. Aaron Rodgers would hold the ball longer than anyone for years while playing behind bad protection. Tony Romo is a master inside the pocket. All three of those QBs have had more than their fair share of injuries though. And all three are at least semi-mobile. Romo plays behind probably the best OL in the league. And Rodgers line is currently top five.

Tom Brady has had very good protection his entire career, and he also plays in a system that doesn't really fit Seattle's identity. You could say the same thing for Brees. I doubt either one would be more productive in Seattle than Wilson is.

Luck would do well in Seattle, other than fumbling and throwing picks way too much. Wilson also has a fumble problem but that is often because of poor snaps or holding onto the ball a long time. That said, nobody ever talks about WIlson's fumbles because they are obviously inflated by his league leading rushing attempts the last three years. That plus Wilson has one of the best, if not the best, fumble retaining rates (he's probably a little lucky).

The rest of the "pocket passers" have all proven to be dependent on protection. Rivers, Stafford, Ryan. Look at the dumpster fire Atlanta turned into when their OL fell on hard times.

But I think all of these QBs, save Manning or maybe Big Ben, would look worse in Seattle than they do for their current teams.

But here's the rub, there isn't a franchise QB store. You can't just say "I don't feel like paying Russell, so I'll go get Tom Brady to play for us instead."

Pete Carroll led off his Seahawks career with Hasselbeck and Tjack, and both got banged up and produced losing records, despite both of them playing reasonably well. The idea that a journeyman QB could overcome the obstacles in our offense is not based on track record.

I think you are definitely selling Wilson short as a passer btw. Last year he was the 3rd best rated QB under pressure. And get this, he was the league's #1 rated QB by passer rating when holding the ball less than 2.5 seconds. It's a shame Richardson got hurt, because last season he was making a huge impact on the quick strike passing game. When Richardson heals (probably in 2016), it should be very interesting to see how Wilson looks with some real weapons to work with.
 

cdallan

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Scottemojo":2lprmrcj said:
Spin Doctor":2lprmrcj said:
Sports Hernia":2lprmrcj said:
lucky49":2lprmrcj said:
I'm honestly asking you hawk fans this not trying to troll or anything: do you really think wilson has been crucial to your success these past few years? if so, why? (by crucial i mean like REALLY, REALLY important not just important because obviously he's been important)
Yes. Look at the Hawks record since he got here.
With the o-line issues a "pocket passer" type would have gotten killed.

.....and as a 9'ers fan it has to freak you out when he gets outside the pocket looking for that wide open reciever or he takes off running for a 20 yard gain....


That's one of the reasons I hated playing the Elway teams as there was multiple ways he could and would beat you.


IS RW perfect and without flaws? Of course not, but I don't see Seattle getting to back to back Super Bowls without him.
I highly doubt that a competent pocket passer would have been killed behind the Seahawks O-Line. I keep hearing this argument repeated, and I do not buy it at all. Our O-Line is not the greatest, but it is certainly not as bad as statistics say. Our O-Lineman have the hardest job when it comes to pass protection. Wilson makes their job extremely difficult, people keep saying "it's the O-Lines fault" but Wilson actually plays a big part in the sack and pressure numbers.

Russell Wilson holds the football longer than any QB in the league. His style makes it much harder for his lineman to block for him. He also has not grasped how to step up in the pocket, his first instinct is to bail from the pocket and use his elusiveness to get guys open. That tendency will naturally lead to more sacks, and pressures. Wilson is his own biggest enemy here. If we had a QB such as Brady, or Manning behind our line they would either change the play at the LOS if they noticed something array, and they would get rid of the ball much quicker. The sack, and pressures would be way down in this scenario.

This is my biggest gripe with Wilson. As a conventional passer his skillset is lacking. This will be very important when he is paid, as I think we will eventually have to shift to being a more offensive oriented team. It happened to the Patriots after Brady got paid, and it happened to the Steelers after Roethlisberger got paid.

Wilson will no longer be able to have the luxury of being on one of the most run dominated teams in the league. In fact we're near the bottom when it comes to pass attempts. He will no longer be able to play the same kind of football and expect to be successful. We will no longer be able to have an offense that disappears for large stretches of time.

I say this because right now I think Wilson is mediocre as a conventional passer. He is bad at identifying the blitz, he is not very good at switching plays even when he does, and he is not very good at timing routes or the short passing game. This offense is simplistic and it masks Wilson's biggest flaws, I don't think he is a QB that succeed in any system -- I think he needs to be in a certain offense, under certain circumstances to be successful.

I like Wilson, I think he is one of the better QB's in the NFL -- in fact I put him near the bottom of the top 10 QBs. He's not easily replaceable and he definitely helped us win our fair share of games. That being said, I wouldn't pay him a penny over 19 million per year. I think that the current Seahawks could still be 10 win team without him, even with a journeyman at QB.

I think you are completely wrong. Absolutely and unequivocally misguided and offbase.
In 2011 the Oline suffered a bunch of injuries, and a last season resurgence was quashed in the final two games when Jackson could not function behind replacements.

In 2012 Wilson learned the NFL game behind an inexperienced line, damn near took us to the NFCCG. In 2013 he pulled games out of his ass, like the game in Houston, behind a bunch of replacement players. 2014 was much the same, Wilson missing players on the line and winning. Cable gets a lot of credit for his line being so plug and play, but if Wilson was a pocket passer he would be as beat up as Jackson was in 2011. Add Wilson to that 2011 team and it makes the playoffs.

And therin lies his value.

As far as the rest, him not being a conventional QB, he is a 3 year vet on a play action offense. Put Brady on this team and he would suffer, is he a system QB?

The money will sort itself out. I read statements like yours about not a penny over 19 mil and laugh, I can't figure out which media pundit you are parroting or if you really think you are smarter than Seattle's GM should he disobey you and give Wilson 19,000,000.01 dollars per year.

Ok, I have to admit that I have stayed out of the Wilson contract discussions, but I think that the two posts above by Scotte and Spin Doctor are two of the best I have seen. Also, I think that - even though they disagree with each other - they are both right.What I think:-

1- Wilson is already elite, but partly due to his athleticism enhancing his gifts as a passer (which still need to develop).

2 - I read Kearly's thread re what the Hawks could keep Wilson for over the next 3years through using the franchise tag twice. And I've read the articles which say that they may just let Wilson play out his rookie deal. And I think that is a mistake. The best leverage the Hawks have right now is that they could give him a contract right now that would raise his wage next year. That insulates him from risk of injury or dramatic loss of form. Three years at 20mil, plus this year at 1.5mil, would be 61.5 over 4 years. But if they could go to 7.5mil this year, you get to the same figure by paying him 18 mil for 3 years. Smart teams don't kick the can of salary cap issue issues down the road. I honestly think that signing him this offseason, and moving some of the cap hit into this year, is the best long-range strategy for the team if it can be achieved.

3 - I personally wouldn't jump off a bridge if they only agreed a four year deal. I realise it's unlikely, but it would allow Russ a chance at another big contract whilst in his prime. It would also protect the team against Wilson failing to develop his QB skills to keep him playing at this level when hisathletic gifts deteriorate.
 

Ramfan128

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I hope Wilson gets paid, but I think it would be the death strike to this team. Every situation is different so it is difficult to compare, but this situation largely reminds of Flacco's. Elite defense, good talent around him offensively, then boom. Flacco gets paid and I'd be willing to bet he never sniffs another superbowl. And sure, Flacco doesn't look so good now. But he was great when he wasn't the focal point of the team. That kind of money forces you to be the focal point.

I think the same thing happens if they pay Wilson that kind of money.
 

kearly

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Ramfan128":ve5ih4ft said:
I hope Wilson gets paid, but I think it would be the death strike to this team. Every situation is different so it is difficult to compare, but this situation largely reminds of Flacco's. Elite defense, good talent around him offensively, then boom. Flacco gets paid and I'd be willing to bet he never sniffs another superbowl. And sure, Flacco doesn't look so good now. But he was great when he wasn't the focal point of the team. That kind of money forces you to be the focal point.

I think the same thing happens if they pay Wilson that kind of money.

Thanks for the laugh.

Wilson isn't even close to Flacco. And even if he was, Flacco hardly killed the Ravens. The Ravens were one of the best teams in the NFL last year by DVOA.
 
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SalishHawkFan

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Sgt. Largent":2cnad1g3 said:
SalishHawkFan":2cnad1g3 said:
Having an elite QB is what MADE THEM A GOOD TEAM.

Then why did the Saints and Broncos not win the SB last year?

You're oversimplifying a very complicated equation. Yes having an elite QB helps your team, but so do MANY other factors.

- team health
- drafting well to replace injured and lost free agents
- defense
- play calling
- schedule
- luck

If you're entire long winded point was that we can win with Russell making 20-25M a year, great. Cause that's what 90% of us also believe. But it's sure not the end all be all to winning more SB's, MANY other things have to happen as well.
that wouild be something wouldn't it? If the Saints AND the Broncos won the Super Bowl...at the same time.

Of course, then we could ask why didn't the Pats AND the Packers win the Super Bowl.
 

seedhawk

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Most of us could be overlooking a salient point. Think back over the past 3 years with RW, and remember his total stinker games. If I remember correctly, damn near all of them, Lynch was a non factor. Either his back seized up and he couldn't go, or Bevel for some unknown reason only gave him 10 to 12 carries.

Now,, if Lynch is indeed hurt, you have to go with what you have, however, were some of those 10 to 12 carry games in effect practice? Just to see if RW with average Rb's could take over a game.

Were the Hawks in effect using certain games to take a peek into the future?
 
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SalishHawkFan

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seedhawk":3c3056z8 said:
Most of us could be overlooking a salient point. Think back over the past 3 years with RW, and remember his total stinker games. If I remember correctly, damn near all of them, Lynch was a non factor. Either his back seized up and he couldn't go, or Bevel for some unknown reason only gave him 10 to 12 carries.

Now,, if Lynch is indeed hurt, you have to go with what you have, however, were some of those 10 to 12 carry games in effect practice? Just to see if RW with average Rb's could take over a game.

Were the Hawks in effect using certain games to take a peek into the future?
Well, you're sidetracking the post, but I don't believe you're correct so I'm looking up the stats.

vs SD: Lynch 6 carries, 36 yds. Wilson 17/25 202 yds, 2 TD 119.1 rating.
vs Dallas: Lynch 10 carries, 61 yds. Wilson 14/28 126 yds, 1 INT 47.6 rating
vs AZ: Lynch 10 carries, 113 yds. Wilson 20/31 339yds 2 TD 122.9 rating

So last season he had one bad game and two really good games when Lynch rushed for less than 13 carries. There was only one game that Lynch rushed that few times the previous year and Wilson had a 117.6 rating.

In the three games in 2012, Wilson's rating was 96.8, 88.0 (in a 58-0 trouncing he sat out part of), and 104.4

So I guess you don't actually remember correctly.
 

Tical21

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So the fact that in the past 16 years, only one of the 5-highest paid quarterbacks in any given season won the Super Bowl is complete coincidence?
 

McGruff

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Here is the best form of truth out there.

If you pay mediocre to good QB's elite money, your team will suck.

If you pay elite QB's elite money, you will be just fine.

The question then becomes, what is Russell Wilson? Is he elite? Or is he mediocre?

I happen to be of the opinion that he is elite. Someone above said that he has "deficiencies in the passing game." I'd like to know what those are. Just because he doesn't have quantity doesn't mean he hasn't demonstrated quality, and often when the game is put on his shoulders, he has come through in spades.

There is a common misconception that if you are a QB who can run, that means you can't pass. Its a myth generated by years of data. Cuuningham, Vince Young, Newton, Vick, RGIII, etc. Wilson gets lumpted into that category because he is . . . well . . . you can figure out why.

But the reality is that there have always been exceptions to that rule. Montana, Steve Young, Elway, Favre, Brunnell, McNair . . . all those guys were able to make plays with their feet and didn't lack in passing. Wilson is a lot more similar to these guys than he is to the former group.
 

Sgt. Largent

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SalishHawkFan":bvwc8pvx said:
Sgt. Largent":bvwc8pvx said:
SalishHawkFan":bvwc8pvx said:
Having an elite QB is what MADE THEM A GOOD TEAM.

Then why did the Saints and Broncos not win the SB last year?

You're oversimplifying a very complicated equation. Yes having an elite QB helps your team, but so do MANY other factors.

- team health
- drafting well to replace injured and lost free agents
- defense
- play calling
- schedule
- luck

If you're entire long winded point was that we can win with Russell making 20-25M a year, great. Cause that's what 90% of us also believe. But it's sure not the end all be all to winning more SB's, MANY other things have to happen as well.
that wouild be something wouldn't it? If the Saints AND the Broncos won the Super Bowl...at the same time.

Of course, then we could ask why didn't the Pats AND the Packers win the Super Bowl.

Hey it's your point, you validate it.

Having an elite QB helps you win everybody!
 

Spin Doctor

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Scottemojo":32q80q81 said:
Spin Doctor":32q80q81 said:
Sports Hernia":32q80q81 said:
lucky49":32q80q81 said:
I'm honestly asking you hawk fans this not trying to troll or anything: do you really think wilson has been crucial to your success these past few years? if so, why? (by crucial i mean like REALLY, REALLY important not just important because obviously he's been important)
Yes. Look at the Hawks record since he got here.
With the o-line issues a "pocket passer" type would have gotten killed.

.....and as a 9'ers fan it has to freak you out when he gets outside the pocket looking for that wide open reciever or he takes off running for a 20 yard gain....


That's one of the reasons I hated playing the Elway teams as there was multiple ways he could and would beat you.


IS RW perfect and without flaws? Of course not, but I don't see Seattle getting to back to back Super Bowls without him.
I highly doubt that a competent pocket passer would have been killed behind the Seahawks O-Line. I keep hearing this argument repeated, and I do not buy it at all. Our O-Line is not the greatest, but it is certainly not as bad as statistics say. Our O-Lineman have the hardest job when it comes to pass protection. Wilson makes their job extremely difficult, people keep saying "it's the O-Lines fault" but Wilson actually plays a big part in the sack and pressure numbers.

Russell Wilson holds the football longer than any QB in the league. His style makes it much harder for his lineman to block for him. He also has not grasped how to step up in the pocket, his first instinct is to bail from the pocket and use his elusiveness to get guys open. That tendency will naturally lead to more sacks, and pressures. Wilson is his own biggest enemy here. If we had a QB such as Brady, or Manning behind our line they would either change the play at the LOS if they noticed something array, and they would get rid of the ball much quicker. The sack, and pressures would be way down in this scenario.

This is my biggest gripe with Wilson. As a conventional passer his skillset is lacking. This will be very important when he is paid, as I think we will eventually have to shift to being a more offensive oriented team. It happened to the Patriots after Brady got paid, and it happened to the Steelers after Roethlisberger got paid.

Wilson will no longer be able to have the luxury of being on one of the most run dominated teams in the league. In fact we're near the bottom when it comes to pass attempts. He will no longer be able to play the same kind of football and expect to be successful. We will no longer be able to have an offense that disappears for large stretches of time.

I say this because right now I think Wilson is mediocre as a conventional passer. He is bad at identifying the blitz, he is not very good at switching plays even when he does, and he is not very good at timing routes or the short passing game. This offense is simplistic and it masks Wilson's biggest flaws, I don't think he is a QB that succeed in any system -- I think he needs to be in a certain offense, under certain circumstances to be successful.

I like Wilson, I think he is one of the better QB's in the NFL -- in fact I put him near the bottom of the top 10 QBs. He's not easily replaceable and he definitely helped us win our fair share of games. That being said, I wouldn't pay him a penny over 19 million per year. I think that the current Seahawks could still be 10 win team without him, even with a journeyman at QB.

I think you are completely wrong. Absolutely and unequivocally misguided and offbase.
In 2011 the Oline suffered a bunch of injuries, and a last season resurgence was quashed in the final two games when Jackson could not function behind replacements.

In 2012 Wilson learned the NFL game behind an inexperienced line, damn near took us to the NFCCG. In 2013 he pulled games out of his ass, like the game in Houston, behind a bunch of replacement players. 2014 was much the same, Wilson missing players on the line and winning. Cable gets a lot of credit for his line being so plug and play, but if Wilson was a pocket passer he would be as beat up as Jackson was in 2011. Add Wilson to that 2011 team and it makes the playoffs.

And therin lies his value.

As far as the rest, him not being a conventional QB, he is a 3 year vet on a play action offense. Put Brady on this team and he would suffer, is he a system QB?

The money will sort itself out. I read statements like yours about not a penny over 19 mil and laugh, I can't figure out which media pundit you are parroting or if you really think you are smarter than Seattle's GM should he disobey you and give Wilson 19,000,000.01 dollars per year.
I'm not parroting any NFL pundit, I just don't value Wilson's services as most of the posters around these parts. He is vastly overrated by most Seahawk fans. He is a good QB no doubt, but I question his ability to stay healthy, and lead an offense over the duration of a season if our defense suffers injuries, or perhaps it begins to be dismantled. There is also the Lynch factor as well. Lynch is getting older, and I honestly do not think he is going to be on the Seahawks much longer. He's having chronic back issues, plus he is nearing the dreaded 30 year old threshold.

The question becomes how good will Wilson be post Lynch, and if the defense takes a step back? I think this is a valid question. I think for at least the first two years we will lose some depth, and a few good players on defense. No longer will we have a historically strong defense backing us up. More burden will be shifted to Wilson, how well will he do with the increased workload? As he stands now, I do not think he will do very well.

It is unquestionable that Wilson has one of the easier jobs in the NFL when compared to his peers. He has one of the most terrifying backs in the NFL, and this causes NFL teams to stack the box. This makes Wilson's life easier, does it not? He also does not bear the same pre-snap responsibilities as guys such as Brady, Manning, Rodgers, or even Luck. Is there to get third downs and make big plays, not to orchestrate the offense. He has excelled in that role, but my question is, can he do more?

My biggest gripe with Wilson is his inability to identify the blitz, and his accuracy and timing on short routes. I think all of these are valid concerns. As a passer he is still very raw, and unrefined, these skills will become important in the future if he ever has to carry the offense. His tendency to rely on his mobility is also going to get him killed. It's fine that he does it now, but what happens if/when he has to put the ball up 530-600 times a year? He is savvy when it comes to avoiding hits, but I noticed when more responsibility is placed on his shoulders during games, he tends to be more reckless. I've seen him take more big hits than most QB's in the league, even though he is good at avoiding hits.

All of these are valid concerns given the offense structure that Wilson plays in now.

Ultimately I would be fine with a heavy incentive laden contract. I actually would really like a contract like the one Tannehill received. Low guaranteed money with a high earning potential depending on how the QB plays.
 

McGruff

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Spin Doctor":2r59bypi said:
I'm not parroting any NFL pundit, I just don't value Wilson's services as most of the posters around these parts. He is vastly overrated by most Seahawk fans. He is a good QB no doubt, but I question his ability to stay healthy, and lead an offense over the duration of a season if our defense suffers injuries, or perhaps it begins to be dismantled. There is also the Lynch factor as well. Lynch is getting older, and I honestly do not think he is going to be on the Seahawks much longer. He's having chronic back issues, plus he is nearing the dreaded 30 year old threshold.

The question becomes how good will Wilson be post Lynch, and if the defense takes a step back? I think this is a valid question. I think for at least the first two years we will lose some depth, and a few good players on defense. No longer will we have a historically strong defense backing us up. More burden will be shifted to Wilson, how well will he do with the increased workload? As he stands now, I do not think he will do very well.

It is unquestionable that Wilson has one of the easier jobs in the NFL when compared to his peers. He has one of the most terrifying backs in the NFL, and this causes NFL teams to stack the box. This makes Wilson's life easier, does it not? He also does not bear the same pre-snap responsibilities as guys such as Brady, Manning, Rodgers, or even Luck. Is there to get third downs and make big plays, not to orchestrate the offense. He has excelled in that role, but my question is, can he do more?

My biggest gripe with Wilson is his inability to identify the blitz, and his accuracy and timing on short routes. I think all of these are valid concerns. As a passer he is still very raw, and unrefined, these skills will become important in the future if he ever has to carry the offense. His tendency to rely on his mobility is also going to get him killed. It's fine that he does it now, but what happens if/when he has to put the ball up 530-600 times a year? He is savvy when it comes to avoiding hits, but I noticed when more responsibility is placed on his shoulders during games, he tends to be more reckless. I've seen him take more big hits than most QB's in the league, even though he is good at avoiding hits.

All of these are valid concerns given the offense structure that Wilson plays in now.

Ultimately I would be fine with a heavy incentive laden contract. I actually would really like a contract like the one Tannehill received. Low guaranteed money with a high earning potential depending on how the QB plays.

This post is filled with so many, if, thens, what ifs and could be as to make it more fairy tale than opinion. And its full of all kinds of misinformation and bizarre assumptions.

"His ability to stay healthy . . . " Wilson has missed ZERO games and IIRC ZERO snaps in three years, despite running the read option and getting pressured more than any QB in the league. This is actually where his diminutive stature helps him, making him more compact and stout than other QB's. There is literally no viable reason to believe injuries are a concern with Russell.

"If the defense suffers . . . if it is dismantled . . . if Lynch declines . . . " All of those are valid possibilities, and if all of those things happen, then there would be concern. Just like any other team. If every possible thing that could go wrong does go wrong, then yes, we are in trouble. Way to go out on a limb there. However, the flip side is also true. IF Russell Wilson gets injured or walks to another team, and IF Lynch declines, how far can our defense carry us? IF Russell gets injured or walks and IF the defense gets injured, how far can Lynch alone carry us?

"I do not think he will do very well . . . " Good for you, but Wilson has demonstrated the ability to carry the team in clutch situations over and over again, so I'm not sure what the basis for your thinking is?

"Wilson has an easier job compared to his peers . . . " Sure he does. Running an offense with crappy linemen, average WR's and questionable playcalling from the OC sure makes his job easier. Oh yeah, and making pre-snap read option reads and reading the crashing DE or OLB on the fly is a piece of cake too.

"Does not bear the pre-snap reads . . . " Really? You know this how? Wilson aubibles often, and pretty much half of Lynch's runs are read option runs where Wilson is making reads before and during the play, in addition to normal blitz read responsibilities. And, oh yeah, with his starting center out much of the last two seasons, Russell was also responsible for making line calls. But don't let that get in the way of a good story.

"His inability to identify the blitz . . . " Don't mistake his ability to identify with his line's inability to block.

"His accuracy and timing on short and medium routes . . . raw and unrefined . . . " Again, I have a hard time seeing how a guy with a career completion percentage right in line with or better than guys like Brady, Stafford, Luck, Roethlisburgher, Ryan and Newton is somehow inaccurate, raw or unrefined. As a passer Wilson has demonstrated the ability to throw deep, medium and long passes, with both touch and velocity depending on the situation. There is nothing about Wilson that is raw or unrefined.

"His tendency to rely on his mobility is also going to get him killed . . . if/when he has to put the ball up 530-600 times a year . . . " Two points. First, based on what? His past history of injury? His build? What? Secondly, We will NEVER, I repeat NEVER, ask our QB to throw the ball that much as long as Carroll and Cable are in charge. That has NEVER been their MO and it NEVER will be. When Lynch retires, they will find another way to generate a ground game, whether that is with another bell cow, or RBBC (which he pretty much invented at USC). But one way or another, Pete will find a way to run the ball.

Pete and John went after Russell hard in the draft because they saw that he had what they wanted. A leader whose diverse skill set would open up what they want to do on offense. They want to run the ball, and push the ball downfield. They saw a guy who will work hard, motivate his team, do the right thing on and off the field, and when called upon make the plays that matter to win games. And Wilson has done nothing but fufill their expectation, and probably even exceed them.

It is absolutely, positively ridiculous to me that after three years in which Wilson has broken nearly every passing trend imaginable while running a read-option based offense and leading our team to 3 NFC championship games, 2 Superbowls, and 1 World Championship in 3 years that there are still Seahawk's fans repeating tired old arguments from training camp 2012.

We now have a guy who is "unquestionably" the greatest young QB in the history of the game (look it up the stats, wins and championships!) and is not only the face of the franchise, but the new face of the NFL (look up the ad dollars and jersey sales), and Seahawks fans are calling him average and are willing to move on without him.
 
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