Russell Wilson is Elite | I'm Putting the Nail in the Coffin

[Sgt. Largent]

No to Favre, yes to Marino?? :lol: :lol:

Marino...career 86 passer rating, 420 TD's to 252 Int's. Almost a dead match with Farve's numbers, just Favre did it for longer.

Both SUCK compared to Wilson. Go read their stat lines....I dare you.

Different eras, that's why I said "for his time Favre wasn't elite."

That's what Elite it, how you compare to your contemporaries. You're bringing up comparisons that are 15-20 years old from different eras with different defenses and offenses. Both Favre and Marino had to play in a time where defenses could destroy offenses.

So of course Russell's stats are going to look better, just as every QB has a decided advantage today. Terry Bradshaw didn't even complete 50% of his passes, OMG HOW IS RUSSELL NOT ELITE, TERRY BRADSHAW!!

 

[SoulfishHawk]

And there it is. It wasn't a flat out clutch/cold blooded throw. It was because the Panthers D sucks. Got it. I thought he was going to throw a quick pass to Lockett, and that is the preference. But, he did something that very few people do, he had the guts to go for the throat, and it worked. Only on here are people STILL downplaying an incredible play that only a few QB's could have made, let alone decided to throw. Absolutely it was gutsy, but so was 4th and 7 in the NFC Championship. But what do I know, I'm just a Russ backer who just throws stuff out there and brings nothing to the table. :lol:
On a side note, of course I don't think he's at the Marino level, but he has a lot of years to add to a ridiculous, and flat out IGNORED resume.

 

[TwistedHusky]

You really are comparing Wilson to Marino?

Hahahahahahaha
(keep the above line on a loop for between 2-4 minutes to get the desired effect)

Marino didn't have anywhere near the rules that handhold QBs now.

What Marino did have was the ability to get rid of the ball before the sack. He was tremendously good at getting rid of the ball fast. Do you even want to know what guys like Marino would do with the rules we have created to make it easy for QBs now?

Oh my god. Now I know why you think Wilson is elite. Because you are deluded. Whatever you are perceiving has only a tenuous connection to reality.

I like you as a poster. I agree with you plenty. You seem to have great insight often. But you are off the rails on this one, I suspect because you are emotionally vested in Wilson being elite.

Wilson's issue is he makes great plays often but misses good ones regularly. Then again - dial up what a previous poster had about Wilson being on a list of QBs being asked to make throws that are more difficult on average. So it might be that his consistency is a function of the difficulty of the passes he is being asked to complete. That makes sense.

What does not make sense is to literally try to compare one of the best QBs EVER with a QB that plays great sandlot football but is hot/cold regularly.

We are going to get off the rails on this one because the Marino comparison was odd. It might be that Wilson could be elite but for the degree of difficulty for him to produce is making it hard for him to be consistent. Still, he now has a running game, he now has an OL, and he has an at least average defense. If he is elite, then he better produce some playoff wins...because you can no longer make excuses for him being 'elite but he cannot be expected to produce consistently because...' since he should have enough pieces now.

 

[Seymour]

I brought up comparisons?

I asked if they thought Favre was elite and to watch a football life to see his struggles early in games.

YOU made the other comparisons.

This is so useless to you people that "mis remember" the past it's time to sit back and laugh some more. :snack:

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I brought up comparisons?

I asked if they thought Favre was elite and to watch a football life to see his struggles early in games.

YOU made the other comparisons.

This is so useless to you people that "mis remember" the past it's time to sit back and laugh some more. :snack:

Yes, I made comparisons for Favre to his contemporaries.........just as I've made comparisons to Russell to his contemporaries.

You're the one who wants us to watch a show with Favre, for what? So we can also see that he wasn't elite because he struggled early in games?

What's your point?

I said Russell's close, but it's those early game inconsistencies that often times takes him an entire half to get into rhythm that I can't call him elite along with the 2-3 contemporary QB's that I consider "elite."

If you do, or other's do, that's fine. Like I said, he's close.........I just have a more strict definition of the word.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Honest question: Why does it matter if a guy starts slow sometimes if he finishes better than most who have ever played the game? Shouldn't Wins and 4th quarter and OT numbers be the true measurement of how great a QB is? In addition to his leadership and his ability to be huge in the clutch?
There have been a ton of QB's with great numbers, including early in the games but they don't have even close to the winning percentage and/or ability to finish a game like Russ. Favre was great, but he did a TON of really stupid things during games. Look how many times he made a stupid throw that lost a game from his team. Russ makes a gutsy 4th and 3 TD and people are saying it's stupid. Favre makes a gutsy throw and people worship him like he's a god.
Why is it different for Russ when he does something that people call "stupid" but when Favre or Rodgers or any other good QB does it etc. It's just Favre being Favre????

 

[Seymour]

......We are going to get off the rails on this one because the Marino comparison was odd......

What is odd is the revisionists that will claw, bite scream and lie to ignore the truth.

Dan Marino
253 Ave. YPG
59.4% completion rate
7.3 Ave per attempt
420 TD's
252 Int's
86.4 Passer RTG

Russell Wilson
230.9 Ave. YPG
64.3% completion rate
7.9 Ave per attempt
186 TD's
61 Int's
100.1 Passer RTG

One is elite, the other is not according to the revisionists...but which one is which? Nope....wrong one!!
And these numbers completely ignore Wilsons SUPERIOR rushing stats....

Now....back to the excuse factory about why one is too short and not old enough. :177692: ukeface:

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Marino was really fun to watch, and that quick release was a real weapon.

Russ' numbers behind a crap o line for much of his career are pretty impressive. Do I want him to start faster in games, absolutely. But he is what he is, a little to hyped up early in a game and then gets in his rhythm.

 

[chris98251]

Given todays rules Marino would have 6000 yards passing in a Season, he may not make it to the Super Bowl still but the receivers they gave him with all the no touch anything rules he would be running up scores every week.

 

[ducks41468]

The reality is that some portion of our fanbase just flat out dislikes the guy and will never give him credit no matter how well he plays. Some of these arguments are just absolutely ridiculous: "He passed up an open 15 yard pass for a less open 35 yard TD pass (that btw we've all seen him make time and again), therefore he doesn't understand his progressions and is not elite." Then when he takes the wide open checkdown to avoid risking in interception throwing to a covered WR, it's about how he's a game manager who's unwilling to take shots when his team needs him.

Basically, people are expecting him to replicate last year's performance against Houston every single game, or else he's not elite.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Honest question: Why does it matter if a guy starts slow sometimes if he finishes better than most who have ever played the game? Shouldn't Wins and 4th quarter and OT numbers be the true measurement of how great a QB is? In addition to his leadership and his ability to be huge in the clutch??

Because the poor starts consistently put your team in a hole over and over creating scenarios where you have to be perfect in 2nd halves to win close games. Like we had to be in Carolina.

Yes Russell is clutch, but Russell also has games like Denver, Chicago, Chargers and Rams this year where he makes critical mistakes that contributed to us losing.

You're telling me if he could come out and get going quicker that wouldn't give us a bigger margin for error in the 2nd halves of those games being ahead by 7-10 pts instead of seemingly always being behind?

Consistency, That's "elite" to me. Guys like Brady and Brees are elite because they've done it year after year, game after game, and quarter after quarter.

Russell? Not there yet for me. For you? That's cool.

 

[Seymour]

Marino was really fun to watch, and that quick release was a real weapon.

Russ' numbers behind a crap o line for much of his career are pretty impressive. Do I want him to start faster in games, absolutely. But he is what he is, a little to hyped up early in a game and then gets in his rhythm.

Exactly why I brought up Favre and Mike Holmgren a football life. They went in depth about this EXACT same issue with Favre. Point is being made because other QB's get passes that our's doesn't and never will.

Mike Holmgren...."NO more rocketballs!!!!"
Favre......"just a little hyped."

 

[SoulfishHawk]

I get your points Sgt. I just prefer a QB who closes games out over guys who put up great numbers but don't get it done in the clutch. Absolutely he needs to be better at the start of games at times, but so does the entire team.

 

[Seymour]

What I find MOST interesting is.....they actually let non Elite players like Brett Favre in the hall of fame??

Think about that for a moment...... The very definition of elite.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

What I find MOST interesting is.....they actually let non Elite players like Brett Favre in the hall of fame??

Think about that for a moment...... The very definition of elite.

Oh man, we could start an entire thread of players that weren't elite that are still in the Hall of Fame. I'd start with Bradshaw and Namath. Average stats, even for their era........but beat the Colts in the SB once and play with the Steel Curtain giving up like six pts a game, and voila, you're a HOF'er.

 

[Seymour]

I'll give you the wiggle room with the HOF, but that is clearly the exception more than the rule.

I've already disproved the theory of "look at the rule changes and all the number differences". They are way way way overstated by the revisionists.

 

[Uncle Si]

The reality is that some portion of our fanbase just flat out dislikes the guy and will never give him credit no matter how well he plays. Some of these arguments are just absolutely ridiculous: "He passed up an open 15 yard pass for a less open 35 yard TD pass (that btw we've all seen him make time and again), therefore he doesn't understand his progressions and is not elite." Then when he takes the wide open checkdown to avoid risking in interception throwing to a covered WR, it's about how he's a game manager who's unwilling to take shots when his team needs him.

Basically, people are expecting him to replicate last year's performance against Houston every single game, or else he's not elite.

This is where im at too.

Its pointless going round and round knowing the goalposts move with every post. Its poor from some and exasperating to the others who sift through it.

The complaints about the 4th and 3 throw have done it. Brady does that and he gets another statue.

 

[Ad Hawk]

If elite QBs find ways to consistently lead their team to wins, what explains Brees' lifetime W-L record of .585? It could easily be argued that he cannot put a team on his back and win. He's definitely not elite.

If you say that the surrounding cast wasn't good enough (bad defense, injuries, etc.), then the obvious conclusion is that no QB can overcome all challenges, no matter how good/elite; he's just one player on a team, albeit an important part.

If Russ is so inconsistent, why are his completion percentages so high? Why is his TD/Int ratio so good? Why is he so efficient? Why does his clutch attitude lead to so many wins?

I agree that he isn't as sharp when the game starts, but he finishes better than nearly every QB in the league in order to have similar or better bottom line stats.

So, maybe what we need to do is break down his play into specific areas and judge each by level of excellence or weakness:
-against he blitz
-short throws
-medium throws
-long throws
-rushing
-with/without a running game
-early in the game
-with less that 2 minutes to play (in half/game)
-with a lead
-when behind
-"clutch"

If he has times of inconsistency in some areas, he is top of the field in others. That means he is the best (elite) in that area. Maybe that's where we should take this conversation.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The reality is that some portion of our fanbase just flat out dislikes the guy and will never give him credit no matter how well he plays. Some of these arguments are just absolutely ridiculous: "He passed up an open 15 yard pass for a less open 35 yard TD pass (that btw we've all seen him make time and again), therefore he doesn't understand his progressions and is not elite." Then when he takes the wide open checkdown to avoid risking in interception throwing to a covered WR, it's about how he's a game manager who's unwilling to take shots when his team needs him.

Basically, people are expecting him to replicate last year's performance against Houston every single game, or else he's not elite.

This is where im at too.

Its pointless going round and round knowing the goalposts move with every post. Its poor from some and exasperating to the others who sift through it.

The complaints about the 4th and 3 throw have done it. Brady does that and he gets another statue.

I don't know one person on this board that "flat out dislikes Russell and never gives him credit no matter how well he plays."

Can you two point me in the direction of these imaginary posters?

 

[Uncle Si]

The reality is that some portion of our fanbase just flat out dislikes the guy and will never give him credit no matter how well he plays. Some of these arguments are just absolutely ridiculous: "He passed up an open 15 yard pass for a less open 35 yard TD pass (that btw we've all seen him make time and again), therefore he doesn't understand his progressions and is not elite." Then when he takes the wide open checkdown to avoid risking in interception throwing to a covered WR, it's about how he's a game manager who's unwilling to take shots when his team needs him.

Basically, people are expecting him to replicate last year's performance against Houston every single game, or else he's not elite.

This is where im at too.

Its pointless going round and round knowing the goalposts move with every post. Its poor from some and exasperating to the others who sift through it.

The complaints about the 4th and 3 throw have done it. Brady does that and he gets another statue.

I don't know one person on this board that "flat out dislikes Russell and never gives him credit no matter how well he plays."

Can you two point me in the direction of these imaginary posters?

Well William Cooper and nseahawks off the top of my head. Is that good enough for you?

Ill point you in the ditection of a handful of people who continue to change the narrative while waiting to jump on the next loss? Will that suffice as well?

Or.. you can apologize for a condescending and confrontational post that was also inaccurate while trying to righteously snare someones hyperbole

Youre getting predictable