Pete or McVay as HC?

[Rainger]

Not a lot more success? Okay, you posted one metric "lost most games ever after winning a superbowl". That is the only thing argument you can make about "not a lot more success".

Since 2017, Sean McVay's Rams have had a lot more success than the Seahawks, not just a little. They've made the Super Bowl twice, won a title, won 7 playoff games, while the Seahawks have won a single playoff game in that timespan -- including lost to Sean McVay himself while he was fielding a QB that had a broken throwing hand.

If you want to make an argument for Carroll, that's not the one to make.

Also Carroll is likely not an HOF head coach right now. There are several guys hanging out that have a higher win percentage and multiple bowl wins to their names that aren't in Canton yet. The bar for Canton when it comes to coaches is EXTREMELY high.

Total straw man argument. But you are good at spin. You obviously know that and named yourself appropriately

 

[Spin Doctor]

Pete is a HOF coach rn. Plenty of articles and analysts say he will get in. Look i hate to be that guy but your agenda has always been to down play Pete.

You "spun" what you wanted to fit your narrative. If McVay leaves, he literally quit on his team/fanbase when the going got tough. Pete would of had to join the Hawks in 2012 and quit after 2015 or 16 to be Sean. Then how would of the stats looked?

Anyone can spin it. Anyone. Pete literally did a rebuild when he came here and started over again this yr. Once Mcvay started losing and knew his cap and draft picks were done, we hear he wants out.

So, you would prefer a guy who gets a ring and then puts you in cap hell and bounces after having the worst season ever for a defending champ to save his name.

If he stays, i will respect him. If he does not? I have my opinion i shared.

I have not always downplayed Pete. I've been here since the Mora days and I lurked since well before. I was one of his biggest defenders back in the day and was beyond excited to get him as I got to see his dominance at USC first hand.

When he first came into the league he not only came with his signature managing style, but he also flipped the leagues META on its nose. He used a basic scheme but he used unconventional players to do it. He saw the trend towards bigger wide receivers in the NFL and that meant that bigger corners couldn't be punished as hard. To cover their weak spots he found himself in the position to draft a rangey safety to cover the aggressive play. He got a tweener SS that straddled the line between linebacker and safety in Chancellor. He also coveted undersized pass rushers that were just tossed aside.

It was simple, but an innovative usage of talent to combat the current NFL trends. The entire league looked to emulate the Seahawks after 2012. Carroll created a new defensive meta, much like Sean McVay/Shanahan did that propagated throughout the NFL like wildfire.

In 2016 Kyle Shanahan cracked the Seahawks defense and soon other NFL teams looked to copy what Shanahan did. Carroll's defense still worked, but since then he's been playing catch up. McVay just expanded on Shanahan's work as his under study.

The defense has struggled to remain relevant in Seattle since 2017. A lot of the moves that i've seen Carroll take to fix the defense have at times been head scratching. Signing Ken Norton Jr. after he had an extremely bad defense on the Raiders, spending two first round picks for a roaming safety that didn't really fit his scheme, drafting extremely bad on defense (remember Carroll has authority over Schneider).

On the offense I always see a regression. He always seems to move away from things that were working in terms of a more simplistic approach when things went the slightest bit wrong. Our staff here too have been extremely dubious at times.

Look, Carroll I don't think he is a bad coach. He's an elite team manager and big picture guy. He's fantastic at setting up a program. His game planning, strategy and tendency to turtle is a huge demerit though. Some of the strategy part is I imagine who he hires, some of it is of his own doing.

I'm just frustrated feeling like I'm in groundhogs day. Every season under Carroll seems to rhyme.

I've said this before about Pete Carroll. I get the sense that these days he is a high floor, low ceiling sort of coach these days. Think a modern day Marty Schottenheimer at this juncture of his career. Schottenheimer was a great coach, but he always turtled up and got super conservative at the point of it being fault. My thought is we're going to be stuck in the same loop for a while under Carroll.

I'm grateful for Carroll, but I think things have been quite stale and stagnant under him for quite some time. I think he at least needs to limit some of his responsibilities and focus more on coaching rather than scouting, and all of the other stuff he's been involved in, as he has more powers than just about every coach in the NFL.

 

[JustTheTip]

I choose Pete all day. I think McVay is a front runner who destroyed a franchise for a ring and wants to leave town now. Pete literally wins everywhere he goes. McVay was a "Genius" who made Qb Goff look respectable was the public's opinion. However, Goff best year has been in Detroit.

McVay had a loaded Squad and sold out to win a ring. He did that so kudos for that but leaving a broken franchise is a bad look imo. Can you imagine if Pete pulled this?

I know people will say look at the H2H record. Rams also have had the better roster until this yr for awhile and then what happened H2H? Pete swept Mcvay.

Pete may be boring, old school,etc but he wins and wins often. He will be in the HOF.

Mcvay is a very good coach who is over rated imo so far in his career. If he stays and rebuilds? Then i am wrong on him front running.

I still think if careers ended today that Pete would be in HOF and McVay would not.

Sounds like he took a page out of Pete's USC book.

 

[Shanegotyou11]

Sounds like he took a page out of Pete's USC book.

And? We are talking NFL Coaching. You know McVay?

 

[bigskydoc]

To honestly compare McVay's career to Carroll's, you have to compare McVay today to the Carroll of 2016.

What did Carroll do, after a couple of trips to the big game? How did his team look, when dealing with the trappings of success from going all the way, vs how the Rams look today?

You simply can't compare Pete's subsequent rebuild years to McVay's career, unless and until McVay stays on through the rebuild, and then we can compare the rebuild years.

McVay leaving today would be like Pete leaving in 2016. McVay built a phenomenal team for a run, but he didn't build it for sustained success. Pete built a team that made a run, then had sustained success, albeit not at the level some consider to be truly successful.

Seems some people would rather have the boom and bust cycle of going all in, winning it, then going through several losing seasons to rebuild from the bottom (not pointing at anyone in this thread).

Perhaps that gets teams to more super bowls than Pete's plan, perhaps not. Personally, I prefer to stay somewhat relevant during the rebuild years. Winning is fun.

 

[seabowl]

McVay reminds me of a younger Pete and that the players like playing for him it’s got a lot of energy. If McVay were truly committed to coaching in Seattle, for at least five years, I take McVay

 

[Spin Doctor]

And? We are talking NFL Coaching. You know McVay?

Pete Carroll literally did the same thing that you're claiming McVay is going to do back when USC was hit with sanctions. You said that you wouldn't have respect for McVay if he decided to retire from the Rams. Our boy did the same thing back in the day. Doesn't matter if it is the NFL or NCAA, it's the same basic action.

That is his point.

 

[Ozzy]

I think both are fantastic in their own way. The hard part is that the excel in completely different areas. I think McVay is much better at X/O's than Pete is. Pete is one of the all time greats at motivating players and building a culture that lets players excel in unique ways. Anyone attempting to say either isn't a great coach is off base IMO.

 

[Shanegotyou11]

Pete Carroll literally did the same thing that you're claiming McVay is going to do back when USC was hit with sanctions. You said that you wouldn't have respect for McVay if he decided to retire from the Rams. Our boy did the same thing back in the day. Doesn't matter if it is the NFL or NCAA, it's the same basic action.

That is his point.

Lol look at you jumping in for him. If i was a USC fan, i would not respect Pete for Bouncing if he left with knowledge of USC sanctions coming. He denies he knew. See how easy that was?

Also, from your last post i have been a fan all my life and suffered through the 1990s so idk your point on that or if you had one when you said that. Most of us older fans have suffered through down years.

 

[Shanegotyou11]

To honestly compare McVay's career to Carroll's, you have to compare McVay today to the Carroll of 2016.

What did Carroll do, after a couple of trips to the big game? How did his team look, when dealing with the trappings of success from going all the way, vs how the Rams look today?

You simply can't compare Pete's subsequent rebuild years to McVay's career, unless and until McVay stays on through the rebuild, and then we can compare the rebuild years.

McVay leaving today would be like Pete leaving in 2016. McVay built a phenomenal team for a run, but he didn't build it for sustained success. Pete built a team that made a run, then had sustained success, albeit not at the level some consider to be truly successful.

Seems some people would rather have the boom and bust cycle of going all in, winning it, then going through several losing seasons to rebuild from the bottom (not pointing at anyone in this thread).

Perhaps that gets teams to more super bowls than Pete's plan, perhaps not. Personally, I prefer to stay somewhat relevant during the rebuild years. Winning is fun.

All of this.

 

[Shanegotyou11]

I think both are fantastic in their own way. The hard part is that the excel in completely different areas. I think McVay is much better at X/O's than Pete is. Pete is one of the all time greats at motivating players and building a culture that lets players excel in unique ways. Anyone attempting to say either isn't a great coach is off base IMO.

Agreed.

 

[soxhawk]

I would say McVay simply based on age. Pete's great and youthful for his age, but he doesn't have a potential of 20 more years like McVay does.

 

[Mase]

-- I actually like McVay the person, but I think he is one of the most overrated coaches in the league. The first few years, he did not even coach the defense in any way. Wade Phillips was like the Head Coach for the defense. When their defense was on the field, McVay was regularly sitting on the bench talking to WRs or QBs. Offensive Guru who generates 3 points in a Super Bowl? Seriously? You want to be an offensive coordinator, great, be one, but don't call yourself a head coach.
-- And I like head coaches who, you know, can coach players up. Make them better. Supposed QB whisperer, are you serious? Couldn't get anything out of Goff so gives up the farm to get a probowl QB to run his vaunted offense. Had given up a ton to get Ramsey, and then more to get Von Miller. So with that creative offense, hand picked QB, and a truly dominant defense, just dominated the playoffs right? No, after beating the flailing Cardinals, they win the next three but 3, 3 and then 3. And in two of those games, dropped INTs could have pushed it the other way.
-- So fine, he has a ring, can't deny that, but it was the most unimpressive, skin of your teeth playoff run I can remember. Doesn't say a lot about a team with a truly dominant defense, an all time great in Donald, and a supposed QB whispering offensive mastermind. Oh, and now that he has to pay the piper for the "F them picks" approach, he wants to spend time with his kids. Isn't that sweet.

Mase

 

[Appyhawk]

If I'm McVay I walk away. He has already stashed all the money he needs to have an extremely comfortable life and seems well suited to a sports broadcasting gig for income. That will afford him more home time and far less stress. No brainer IMO.

 

[Ozzy]

And if he decides to come back after a couple of years he can. I would walk too in his shoes.

 

[Hawknballs]

Political post removed. Keep politics in the Politics section.

 

[KinesProf]

I like em both.

If I want someone who is going to build a program from the foundation with sustainable success for a period of 10+ years give me Pete. I think he's one of the best program and culture builders that the sport has seen.

If I have a talented roster already and am looking for someone to hop in the drivers seat of the Ferrari and get me to a Super Bowl within 3-5 years give me McVay.

I have zero issue with MCvay walking away for now; I think it's the smart move and indicative of someone who may be prioritizing other things. He's 36 and just married - can take 15/20 years making good money at a less demanding job and be a present husband and potentially father with zero regrets, and still be a very hirable HC candidate in his 50's should he want to get back in. Smart man, and I think it is a great decision. Coming back to try to repeat had to be done as well; but now feels like an appropriate time.

 

[KinesProf]

McVay is a young guy and wants to spend time with his young kids. I totally understand stepping away right now. He has young children and accomplished his goal in the NFL.

Let the man be with his children and stop trying to make it something it’s not.

He does not have children.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

He does not have children.

I stand corrected.

Sean McVay wants to stay busy making some children with his model wife.

All good reasons to take a break from the NFL.

Spend time with a model wife, Sean McVay is cool with that.

Tom Brady, not so much.

Lol.

 

[bileever]

It will be interesting to see how long it takes the Rams to rebuild after mortgaging their future for a ring. Although a fan base might be willing to trade a Super Bowl win for several years of turmoil, most coaches and GMs don't want to be stuck with cleaning up the mess afterwards.

I love McVay--his football intellect is rivaled only by Shanahan. Unfortunately for the Seahawks, we have to contend with both of them in the same division. McVay also has Carroll-like energy and enthusiasm. They are both very positive, upbeat coaches.

I think McVay will take a couple of years off, then resurface somewhere else. I think he can replicate his success anywhere. In fact, it would probably be easier to have success in a place where he hasn't traded away all the draft capital and made a mess of the salary cap.

McVay's next stint will show how good he really is. He took over a pretty good Rams roster that already had Aaron Donald, Rob Havenstein, Todd Gurley and Jared Goff. How much of the roster building was McVay, and how much of it was Les Snead? Plus, they traded for Matthew Stafford, Jalen Ramsey, Odell Beckham, Andrew Whitworth, Von Miller, among others. It's not really a sustainable way of running an NFL franchise.