Never thought I'd say this, but...

[TwistedHusky]

2-3 vs 2-3 Dark. Not sure what fairies have to do with it but now I realize why you are having trouble with the argument.

Would keeping Wilson, even the version of Wilson we see now, make us better? Probably because we wouldn't have kept Pete.
Your argument seems to be that with Wilson so limited and because of the 250M cap issue (which we don't know we would be hindered by) or lack of draft picks if he went FA - the team would be worse off.

So let's see what we do with that cap space we earned or the draft picks we get. Because until we know that - hard to pick a winner.
You will be proven right the moment we use our cap space effectively or get anything out of those draft picks. Not before.

Whatever improvement Geno provided in Pete's offense, is more than offset by the nightmare decline of Pete's defense.

 

[NampaHawk]

Because the only way for Wilson to have stayed is if Pete didn't. That changes things.

Supposedly a bullet dodged. But the team isn't better though.

In all likelihood, even if the 'terrible' version Russ stayed, the team would likely be better than it is now.

Because That isn't how it would have worked.....

If we kept Wilson, we wouldn't have kept Pete.
But having a top QB, we likely would have been able to lure a top coach.

We wouldn't have the garbage defense. (But then again, wouldn't likely have as effective an offense.)

Still, funny thing, terrible Russ is putting up the exact same record as Pete right now.

So we dodged nothing but the 250M. Does having that 250M make the team better? No.
(How much of that 250M is Geno going to eat BTW)

Do we tend to spend wisely when we have cap space? No.

Should you expect any kind of significant improvement based on our history when we have cap space? No.

I think TwistedHusky is saying we should have replaced Pete Carroll with Nathaniel Hackett and kept Russell Wilson

 

[Hawkpower]

Cap savings only matters if we get better results with the cap space cleared.

We have been pretty awful at taking advantage of cap space. Look at our past 5-7 years (8?) history with how we use our cap.
Admittedly, it would be tough to squander 250M. (But then again, how much is Geno going to cost?)

250M buys a lot of JAGs.

Ultimately it does not matter how we spend the cap if the results aren't great in W/Ls. I am not buying the youth thing. As Parcells said: You Are What Your Records Says You Are. And we are barely a .500 team.

Cap space
Draft picks
Team morale without a diva throwing them under the bus all the time

And honestly, our record is going to be pretty similar to last year probably. Not sure why you think its going to be worse....

 

[Hawkpower]

Because the only way for Wilson to have stayed is if Pete didn't. That changes things.

Supposedly a bullet dodged. But the team isn't better though.

In all likelihood, even if the 'terrible' version Russ stayed, the team would likely be better than it is now.

Because That isn't how it would have worked.....

If we kept Wilson, we wouldn't have kept Pete.
But having a top QB, we likely would have been able to lure a top coach.

We wouldn't have the garbage defense. (But then again, wouldn't likely have as effective an offense.)

Still, funny thing, terrible Russ is putting up the exact same record as Pete right now.

So we dodged nothing but the 250M. Does having that 250M make the team better? No.
(How much of that 250M is Geno going to eat BTW)

Do we tend to spend wisely when we have cap space? No.

Should you expect any kind of significant improvement based on our history when we have cap space? No.

Russ wasnt staying because the organization didnt want him here

And now we are seeing why

Pete is irrelevant

 

[LickMyNuts]

Thank god we parted ways with Wilson.

Not only has his ego become a problem, his play is declining.

If you'd have tried to convince me last year, that trading Wilson was the right move, I wouldn't have heard it, yet here we are.

His game was never sustainable long term like "pocket passers".

With Geno's level of play, it seems inarguable that we made the right decision at the right time parting ways.

I called for trading him the year before as some others did and was nearly burned at the stake.

Once you throw your entire o-line under the bus it’s pretty much over. Especially when you refuse to stop doing that little shuffle dance in the pocket at the slightest in long of pressure.

 

[LickMyNuts]

Because the only way for Wilson to have stayed is if Pete didn't. That changes things.

Supposedly a bullet dodged. But the team isn't better though.

In all likelihood, even if the 'terrible' version Russ stayed, the team would likely be better than it is now.

Because That isn't how it would have worked.....

If we kept Wilson, we wouldn't have kept Pete.
But having a top QB, we likely would have been able to lure a top coach.

We wouldn't have the garbage defense. (But then again, wouldn't likely have as effective an offense.)

Still, funny thing, terrible Russ is putting up the exact same record as Pete right now.

So we dodged nothing but the 250M. Does having that 250M make the team better? No.
(How much of that 250M is Geno going to eat BTW)

Do we tend to spend wisely when we have cap space? No.

Should you expect any kind of significant improvement based on our history when we have cap space? No.

Yeah it makes the team better. It allows us to resign some of our draft picks when they are eligible in a couple years.

Not sure that any of your thoughts make sense?

 

[Hollandhawk]

Because the only way for Wilson to have stayed is if Pete didn't. That changes things.

Supposedly a bullet dodged. But the team isn't better though.

In all likelihood, even if the 'terrible' version Russ stayed, the team would likely be better than it is now.

Because That isn't how it would have worked.....

If we kept Wilson, we wouldn't have kept Pete.
But having a top QB, we likely would have been able to lure a top coach.

We wouldn't have the garbage defense. (But then again, wouldn't likely have as effective an offense.)

Still, funny thing, terrible Russ is putting up the exact same record as Pete right now.

So we dodged nothing but the 250M. Does having that 250M make the team better? No.
(How much of that 250M is Geno going to eat BTW)

Do we tend to spend wisely when we have cap space? No.

Should you expect any kind of significant improvement based on our history when we have cap space? No.

How would we not have a garbage defense? Because maybe the scheme would be different? Because the players would be the same, except maybe missing some stud rookies on defense. I’m just confused here. Russell NEVER had a defense this bad (point wise). And besides that, Mr. 3 and out made defenses worse because they were out there all the time.

 

[LeveeBreak]

That trade will never get the credit it deserves. The biggest 1 sided trade of all time.

But you also have to hand it to Russ as well...HUGE contract, zero effort.
Everybody screwed Denver on this deal!

Peter knew what he was doing on this one.

Epic Trades

Not sure about the biggest 1 sided of all time. Many of the trades included above are for all draft picks...where, what we got for Russ was such a strong mix of picks/players. But certainly competition for other 1 sided trades. I think Ditka's bone-headed 1999 trade for Ricky Williams was a head scratcher. Griffen as well.

Do not agree with "That trade will never get the credit it deserves.". I think it is already well represented and will continue to be.

 

[nwHawk]

Just curious how the team is better since Wilson left? Not in the W/L department.

When Wilson was good, we won lots of games. Went to the playoffs, etc.

Even when the defense was dog awful.

Now the offense is good but this is barely a .500 team. Seems a weird thing to be happy about since the team is (results-based) worse.

Yes, Geno is not as much of a d**che as Wilson. But W/Ls are projected to be worse. Not sure what bullet we dodged here.

Yikes, really? Wilson’s last year and a half + were blah. When he was younger he was a baller! But his game didn’t evolve to what it needs to be to as he ages.

Many of Pete’s teams start off 2-2 and then get better as the kids improve and the teams gel. This team’s biggest weakness right now is at Linebacker and Defensive End (setting the edge). Losing Jamal affected the defensive plan.

But, the future looks so much better. I speculated numerous times here over the past couple of seasons that once Russ was gone, the line would improve- and boy has it ever! Denver, well they went from having a really good line to a terrible line and that was before losing their LT.

I loved reading that one of the Broncos player wrote a tweet that he felt that Denver got catfished on Russ. That was beautiful.

This team lost Russ and Bobby, so keep that in mind. Bobby, who was a shell of his old self was a greater loss than Russ.

 

[Pandion Haliaetus]

Well for sure I think if Jody Allen kept Wilson, then Wagner would probably still be here as well but you probably lose out on the following:

Schneider,
(if not more of the front office/operations)
Carroll,
Waldron,
Dickerson,
(If not more or even all of the coaches)

Geno Smith,
Drew Lock,
Noah Fant,
Will Dissly,
Nwosu Unchenna,
Quandre Diggs,
Shelby Harris,
(No cap, no trade)

Charles Cross,
Boye Mafe,
Kenneth Walker,
Abe Lucas,
Tariq Woolen,
(Cross for sure, and at least 2 of the others, but no guarantees they’d be drafted by an entirely different coaching staff or football operations).

Not to mention a plethora of future pending free agents like DK who might move on.

Antonio Brown, would be a Seahawks and living with Russ, his Subway ad would make perfect sense with AB as his audience. As BTS, Russ would have to keep AB’s pool noodle from getting dangerously close with Ciara.

 

[nwHawk]

Of all the arguments we could make, this is probably the most underrated. We aren't wasting another year, scratching our heads, with no clear answer about whether it is Russ or Pete holding us back on offense.

We have the answer and the cash and the picks to move forward. Without the trade we have none of the three.

This is a great point.

 

[DarkVictory23]

2-3 vs 2-3 Dark. Not sure what fairies have to do with it but now I realize why you are having trouble with the argument.

Would keeping Wilson, even the version of Wilson we see now, make us better? Probably because we wouldn't have kept Pete.
Your argument seems to be that with Wilson so limited and because of the 250M cap issue (which we don't know we would be hindered by) or lack of draft picks if he went FA - the team would be worse off.

So let's see what we do with that cap space we earned or the draft picks we get. Because until we know that - hard to pick a winner.
You will be proven right the moment we use our cap space effectively or get anything out of those draft picks. Not before.

Whatever improvement Geno provided in Pete's offense, is more than offset by the nightmare decline of Pete's defense.

No, the problem with the argument is you just wholesale made up a completely unsupported counterfactual to make your argument hold any water whatsoever.

You have no idea in any way, shape, or form what our defense would look like if we replaced Carroll as head coach. You are literally just making up a strawman to avoid engaging in this discussion in good faith.

On top of that, the very premise you have made up is wrong. The most likely scenario that has Russ still in Seattle doesn't involve Pete being gone. We traded Russ. We could have just as easily, you know, NOT traded him. No change at head coach required.

 

[BlueTalon]

Because the only way for Wilson to have stayed is if Pete didn't...

If we kept Wilson, we wouldn't have kept Pete...

You keep asserting this. As far as I can tell, you have nothing to support this supposition.

 

[Mick063]

This entire "debate" is dumb. How can a person twist himself into a pretzel trying to redefine the blatantly obvious?

You have to be super creative to whip up a believable "alternate universe" story to the reality that is staring us all in the face.

In other words, believe what your eyes are showing you.

There is an old axiom in the Conduct of Ops manual. "Trust your indicators". It is how we prevent nuclear meltdown. It is the chasing of "what ifs" in your mind, at the expense of believing in your indicators, that allow the meltdowns to happen. This is why every critical step for every critical evolution should stress that you trust what you are seeing with the most critical steps requiring an independent set of eyes to verify it. With respect to Russ and Geno, your eyes are not fooling you. Trust them.

 

[Vesuve]

That trade will never get the credit it deserves. The biggest 1 sided trade of all time.

But you also have to hand it to Russ as well...HUGE contract, zero effort.
Everybody screwed Denver on this deal!

Peter knew what he was doing on this one.

Aside from the trade Denver made that huge extension before Russ ever took the first snap.

You folks know more than I do....Why did they do that?

 

[keasley45]

Just curious how the team is better since Wilson left? Not in the W/L department.

When Wilson was good, we won lots of games. Went to the playoffs, etc.

Even when the defense was dog awful.

Now the offense is good but this is barely a .500 team. Seems a weird thing to be happy about since the team is (results-based) worse.

Yes, Geno is not as much of a d**che as Wilson. But W/Ls are projected to be worse. Not sure what bullet we dodged here.

You've chosen just about the only argument you could make that we arent better off without Wilson. And it's really not even a defensible position.

Our offense is better on 3rd downs than it has ever been (3rd in the league at the moment WITH the overly conservative game plan against the 9ers).

The passing offense rates higher in effectiveness despite the fact that Geno is seeing more pressure this year than Russ did in 21.

By some metrics, Geno despite being in only his first true starters stint in years, is the leagues top rated passer and is doing it regardless of down and distance, known passing situations, etc.

There are no caveats in the pass game performance like there were with Russ. Geno is a league leader without exception... whether 3rd down, ypa, area of the field, pressure, etc. Russ never did that.

The ONLY reason we aren't better record wise has zero to do with the trade and everything to do with an defense that hasn't come together yet. We are 2-3 and could easily have won the game against Atlanta had our D been even minimally effective.

We could also have won last week had our D not blown a 4th qtr comeback, down 31 to 19 to take the lead 32 -31.

So this team is easily 4 and 1 without trying hard at all to imagine how it could have been.

To say that we aren't better off without Wilson running the offense when he's been an abject failure in Denver at doing the same things he failed to do here for years (but without the duct-tape and curtains that held our offense together when he was here) reeks of denialism.

Just ask every Denver fan whether THEY rather have their team or ours right now or whether they'd trade russ for Geno, straight up.

When the defense corrects itself - and it will, either this year or next - we will again be right back in contention with a passing game that is proving to be more effective than any PC has had, and an offense thats turning heads around the league. That's the beautiful thing about this season. We may not push much further than .500 this year, but the table is clearly set for us to be a force to be reckoned with again, with an offense like one we've not seen here, and one we would have NEVER had with one Russell C Wilson calling the shots.

 

[samwize77]

My feelings are, the organization as a whole is better off without RW.
We can argue all we want about any of the "specifics"....but as a whole, the organization known as the Seattle Seahawks are better off and in a better position going forward.

Edit: Its not over though, now the organization has to take advantage of what it has. Use the resources the trade was givin us properly. If we waste picks or cap space then the trade gap closes.

 

[BASF]

The argument is silly. Wilson held in with the Broncos for a new contract. They didn't want to say it publicly so it was Hackett keeping the starters from playing in the preseason. Jody Allen was not going to give Wilson that contract. As much as the Hero-ball Syndrome crowd want to espouse that Wilson deserves that money, only an owner group that has no context for how Wilson has played in the recent past would give him that money. Remember that the players, Wilson's peers, voted him the sixty-first best player in the league. People in the league who aren't desperate at being relevant would not give Wilson that contract.

Now if the argument was that we would be better if Wagner's pride allowed him to take the front offices phone call to discuss possibly reducing his salary and the consequent cutting that we would be better off, I'd be on board.

 

[FrodosFinger]

Just curious how the team is better since Wilson left? Not in the W/L department.

When Wilson was good, we won lots of games. Went to the playoffs, etc.

Even when the defense was dog awful.

Now the offense is good but this is barely a .500 team. Seems a weird thing to be happy about since the team is (results-based) worse.

Yes, Geno is not as much of a d**che as Wilson. But W/Ls are projected to be worse. Not sure what bullet we dodged here.

The offense is better in every department. Number 1 in the league DVOA. If you’re still curious Wilson has the worst QBR in the league and Geno Smith has the league’s best passer rating. Receivers are getting the ball in stride and the offense is clicking. Let him go bro. He’s got about 2 years left of decline until Denver decides to cut their losses. Pete Carroll groomed him as much as he could but even Pete knew it was time to upgrade at the quarterback position . Receivers are much happier now that they got a guy that can rifle in darts for chunk plays.

 

[scutterhawk]

Just curious how the team is better since Wilson left? Not in the W/L department.

When Wilson was good, we won lots of games. Went to the playoffs, etc.

Even when the defense was dog awful.

Now the offense is good but this is barely a .500 team. Seems a weird thing to be happy about since the team is (results-based) worse.

Yes, Geno is not as much of a d**che as Wilson. But W/Ls are projected to be worse. Not sure what bullet we dodged here.

$$$$$$$$ 245 MILLION, and THAT was with Wilson giving the Donkos a deal that he was NOT going to give the Seahawks.
You're having a problem accepting that Geno Smith is actually an upgrade over a 'Stuck on Sandlot' Wilson.
Defense? yeah, they will very likely keep the Seahawks from making the playoffs at the rate they're going, but that is NOT because Geno Smith ain't holding up his end of the Game.