Is Russell Wilson an all-time great QB?

[NINEster]

Great question and somewhat predictable answers on .net.

Comparing to TB? He’s referred to as the GOAT for a reason. That’s like saying Walter Payton was so-so compared to Barry Sanders and perhaps isn’t an all-time great.

Someone will say he’s not on a Montana or Marino level yet another will say he’s only won one SB (if you don’t know, Marino has zero).

What I’m saying is…answers will be objective in nature but, the numbers don’t lie. Russ has already set quite a few records which is even more amazing considering he has not played in a pass heavy offense.

Look at the attempts. Look at the TD/INT ratio. Look at the W-L record (another point that will be argued down to this being mainly due to defense).

Yes. He’s an all-time great QB. Numbers don’t lie. People do.

Statistics have to be tempered unless they are overwhelming.

Wins are a team stat as much as QB.

The post season drop off is what kills Wilson. What Sherman said recently is what I've been saying since 2015.

The bigger issue here with Wilson is suddenly starting in 2019, "cooking" did lead to much more regular season success than before. Maybe it had to do with Lockett and DK maturing at the same time. Wilson throwing more actually lead to more wins early in the year instead of losses.

Bigger picture - some aspects of Wilson's game are all time great. But more than not, a lot aren't. He's a ******* anomaly for a QB. His height is the least anomalous thing about him really.

He somehow can lead the NFL in TD passes in a season and also lead an offense that is #1 in punts per drive. How is that even possible?

Wilson's greatest strengths are the lowest leveraged aspects to beating a defense (deep balls and scramble drill plays). Even the very best cannot convert every deep attempt close to what short and intermediate passing greatness will give you.

Steve Young would eviscerate Wilson in the short and intermediate passing game. That 49er WCO '92-'98 was something to behold. If Wilson is a better deep ball thrower or improviser than Young it isn't by much. Those Young highlights (and Montana) were plentiful with the deep ball. So overall, who is the better QB?

Same could be said for Aaron Rodgers versus Wilson. Rodgers' only real weakness is what's between his ears, but not one thing physically.

Wilson's weaknesses are actually critical in keeping him from being a truly great QB. His physical strengths are nice but they're not the foundation of what you want in a great QB.

Does anyone give a shit that RG3 and Kaepernick were the all time best at running in a straight line with some head of steam? Lamar is world class in making the argument that 11 on 11 football is possibly championship worthy and it still isn't enough for his Ravens.

Wilson has just never been a great move the chains, rhythm QB. At his best I would say he's pretty good, but not great, not even close.

An all time great is really not supposed to have any glaring weaknesses, excluding mobility.

 

[OrangeGravy]

Great question and somewhat predictable answers on .net.

Comparing to TB? He’s referred to as the GOAT for a reason. That’s like saying Walter Payton was so-so compared to Barry Sanders and perhaps isn’t an all-time great.

Someone will say he’s not on a Montana or Marino level yet another will say he’s only won one SB (if you don’t know, Marino has zero).

What I’m saying is…answers will be objective in nature but, the numbers don’t lie. Russ has already set quite a few records which is even more amazing considering he has not played in a pass heavy offense.

Look at the attempts. Look at the TD/INT ratio. Look at the W-L record (another point that will be argued down to this being mainly due to defense).

Yes. He’s an all-time great QB. Numbers don’t lie. People do.

Statistics have to be tempered unless they are overwhelming.

Wins are a team stat as much as QB.

The post season drop off is what kills Wilson. What Sherman said recently is what I've been saying since 2015.

The bigger issue here with Wilson is suddenly starting in 2019, "cooking" did lead to much more regular season success than before. Maybe it had to do with Lockett and DK maturing at the same time. Wilson throwing more actually lead to more wins early in the year instead of losses.

Bigger picture - some aspects of Wilson's game are all time great. But more than not, a lot aren't. He's a f*** anomaly for a QB. His height is the least anomalous thing about him really.

He somehow can lead the NFL in TD passes in a season and also lead an offense that is #1 in punts per drive. How is that even possible?

Wilson's greatest strengths are the lowest leveraged aspects to beating a defense (deep balls and scramble drill plays). Even the very best cannot convert every deep attempt close to what short and intermediate passing greatness will give you.

Steve Young would eviscerate Wilson in the short and intermediate passing game. That 49er WCO '92-'98 was something to behold. If Wilson is a better deep ball thrower or improviser than Young it isn't by much. Those Young highlights (and Montana) were plentiful with the deep ball. So overall, who is the better QB?

Same could be said for Aaron Rodgers versus Wilson. Rodgers' only real weakness is what's between his ears, but not one thing physically.

Wilson's weaknesses are actually critical in keeping him from being a truly great QB. His physical strengths are nice but they're not the foundation of what you want in a great QB.

Does anyone give a $h!t that RG3 and Kaepernick were the all time best at running in a straight line with some head of steam? Lamar is world class in making the argument that 11 on 11 football is possibly championship worthy and it still isn't enough for his Ravens.

Wilson has just never been a great move the chains, rhythm QB. At his best I would say he's pretty good, but not great, not even close.

An all time great is really not supposed to have any glaring weaknesses, excluding mobility.

This is the unvarnished truth and how Russell is largely viewed by the greater NFL world outside of Seattle. And it could keep him on the outside looking in with respect to the HOF unless he stays steady at least another 5 years, maybe more. If he stumbles in the next couple years, he'll find himself an afterthought being sandwiched between Brady, Brees, Manning, Rogers, and Mahomes + the new wave of kids. If Burrow wins this SB, look out. That'll be 2 youngsters with a ring with a couple more youngsters poised to put up huge numbers at the very least. Nobody will be talking about Russell. His biggest claim to fame at this point is never once receiving an MVP vote and stirring up trade speculation.

Its no coincidence that the more other QBs get media attention for on the field play, the more Russell's camp starts chirping. Gotta keep his name out there.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

A Warren Moon vs RW discussion might be interesting.

Idk bout this comparison, but I can tell you Moon would be a top 10, if not a top 5 all time NFL QB if he didn't have to go play six years in the CFL first before someone gave him a chance in the NFL.

Moon all day every day over Russell

How many Super Bowl appearances as a SEAHAWK QB.
Russ "All Day Every Day over" Moon.

Throwing the most brutal pick in SB history probably isn't the best hill to die on with this comparison.

 

[ZagHawk]

Can you be an all time great QB while never receiving a single MVP vote? Ever?

this is truly something to think about. There are those who want to put RW in what I assume is a top 5 QB category of all QBs to ever play the game. Maybe top 10? to be considered "all time great" yet in the 10 years he's played so far he hasn't even received one MVP vote for a single year.

 

[ZagHawk]

Great question and somewhat predictable answers on .net.

I bet you the answers would be far more negative in a non seahawk-based forum. Thread may even get completed laughed off the board/page.


Found it

https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/commen...urce=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

NFL Reddit about 2.4M users fans of all teams and yeah the topic is pretty overwhelming that RW is not an all time
Great HOF yes but ALL time great no.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Just because he hasn't had an MVP vote, doesn't mean that he SHOULDN'T HAVE.

Get over it. Geezus

 

[ZagHawk]

Just because he hasn't had an MVP vote, doesn't mean that he SHOULDN'T HAVE.

Get over it. Geezus

He shouldn't have. Every season he didn't get a vote pretty much played out these ways:

1 - Started the season poorly and then lit it up in the end. But overall season was not consistently MVP caliber compared to the other candidates.
2- Started the season hot, then fell off a cliff halfway through the season. Once again overall season was not consistently MVP caliber compared to the other candidates.

for those who think he should have, in your mind you're stitching together two halves of different seasons and his overall package through several years as a reason he should get an MVP versus how he faired over a single season consistently. And if he got an MVP win despite how every season did play out as shown above. People would lose their damn minds because it would be a sympathy MVP not a deserved one. Marino is a HOFer but they didn't sympathy award him a SB win because he could never get it done in a single season.

Since 2012 these are the only things that will be considered all-time great of the Seahawks teams.

The LOB defense
Bobby Wagner

HOF
PC - Although honestly I'm starting to wonder how he truly compares to some of the other future HOF HCs if we're just talking W/Ls and championships.
RW - Well on his way there

Honorable Mention - Beast Mode if his career was longer and not under the shadow of Adrian Peterson.

On the reddit thread i linked above someone mentioned HOFer in Big Ben Tier. Early championship success, continued playoff appearances, but never really going to be in the "all time great" tier of HOF QBs (which is one tier below TB as Goat). This seems really appropriate honestly for RW. And honestly still a compliment. If RW develops a short quick passing game where he can be surgical vs other teams even when his run game and o-line is not "good" it changes narrative considerably, but to this day this is not the case.

 

[Elemas]

Great question and somewhat predictable answers on .net.

Comparing to TB? He’s referred to as the GOAT for a reason. That’s like saying Walter Payton was so-so compared to Barry Sanders and perhaps isn’t an all-time great.

Someone will say he’s not on a Montana or Marino level yet another will say he’s only won one SB (if you don’t know, Marino has zero).

What I’m saying is…answers will be objective in nature but, the numbers don’t lie. Russ has already set quite a few records which is even more amazing considering he has not played in a pass heavy offense.

Look at the attempts. Look at the TD/INT ratio. Look at the W-L record (another point that will be argued down to this being mainly due to defense).

Yes. He’s an all-time great QB. Numbers don’t lie. People do.

Statistics have to be tempered unless they are overwhelming.

Wins are a team stat as much as QB.

The post season drop off is what kills Wilson. What Sherman said recently is what I've been saying since 2015.

The bigger issue here with Wilson is suddenly starting in 2019, "cooking" did lead to much more regular season success than before. Maybe it had to do with Lockett and DK maturing at the same time. Wilson throwing more actually lead to more wins early in the year instead of losses.

Bigger picture - some aspects of Wilson's game are all time great. But more than not, a lot aren't. He's a f*** anomaly for a QB. His height is the least anomalous thing about him really.

He somehow can lead the NFL in TD passes in a season and also lead an offense that is #1 in punts per drive. How is that even possible?

Wilson's greatest strengths are the lowest leveraged aspects to beating a defense (deep balls and scramble drill plays). Even the very best cannot convert every deep attempt close to what short and intermediate passing greatness will give you.

Steve Young would eviscerate Wilson in the short and intermediate passing game. That 49er WCO '92-'98 was something to behold. If Wilson is a better deep ball thrower or improviser than Young it isn't by much. Those Young highlights (and Montana) were plentiful with the deep ball. So overall, who is the better QB?

Same could be said for Aaron Rodgers versus Wilson. Rodgers' only real weakness is what's between his ears, but not one thing physically.

Wilson's weaknesses are actually critical in keeping him from being a truly great QB. His physical strengths are nice but they're not the foundation of what you want in a great QB.

Does anyone give a $h!t that RG3 and Kaepernick were the all time best at running in a straight line with some head of steam? Lamar is world class in making the argument that 11 on 11 football is possibly championship worthy and it still isn't enough for his Ravens.

Wilson has just never been a great move the chains, rhythm QB. At his best I would say he's pretty good, but not great, not even close.

An all time great is really not supposed to have any glaring weaknesses, excluding mobility.

There’s a lot here…way too much to address but, you’ve proved my point about comparisons. There aren’t many QBs that had a better short game than Young. And if an all-time great isn’t supposed to have glaring weaknesses, why’s Tom Brady considered the GOAT?

There’s some truth to your statement about moving the chains but, the play calling has equal importance. And, if you can compile one of the best win percentages in sports (like…all sports) over the last decade, something must be going right.

Folks tend to bring up things that favor their perspective. Again, it’s like saying Russ has only led us to one SB, or we didn’t make the playoffs, etc. Yet Marino is over there with zero SBs.

 

[scutterhawk]

HOF yes

All time great? Debatable. I don’t think he’s ever been considered the best QB in the league during his career it’s always been Brady, Rodgers, now mahomes.

In THIS ERA of football would argue Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Breese, Ben Roethlisbeger, Brett Favre, AND if you have >Aaron Rodgers & his 1 SB win<? you'd HAVE TO INCLUDE >the 1 SB win, & 2 SB appearances Russell Wilson<.
IF you're talking "Of All Times", adding such names as Aikman, Bradshaw, Moon, Plunkett, Elway, Starr, Young, Marino, Namath, Montana, Russell Wilson would still be in the conversation for the TOP 20.
I see Burrows, Mahomes, & Murray as rising stars
I also believe that had Matt Stafford been Drafted by the Cowboys, Packers, or even the 49rs, rather than the Lions, he'd have been on this list.

 

[scutterhawk]

Great question and somewhat predictable answers on .net.

I bet you the answers would be far more negative in a non seahawk-based forum. Thread may even get completed laughed off the board/page.


Found it

https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/commen...urce=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

NFL Reddit about 2.4M users fans of all teams and yeah the topic is pretty overwhelming that RW is not an all time
Great HOF yes but ALL time great no.

So, Fans of other teams aren't BIASED in FAVOR of their OWN Teams? Yeah, Okay LOLOLOL.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Folks tend to bring up things that favor their perspective. Again, it’s like saying Russ has only led us to one SB, or we didn’t make the playoffs, etc. Yet Marino is over there with zero SBs.

I think with QB's like Marino, and even Peyton Manning it's more about their era.

Russell has better stats than Manning if we're comparing first 10-11 years in the league, yet Manning broke passing records and had two MVP's.

Same with Marino. His stats and accomplishments look weak in comparison to Wilson and other modern QB's.

But these guys were the best in their era when they played. Russell isn't. Brady, Brees, Mahomes, etc. Guys who ARE winning MVP's and getting All Pro votes, while Wilson isn't.

That hurts him with this discussion.

 

[scutterhawk]

Idk bout this comparison, but I can tell you Moon would be a top 10, if not a top 5 all time NFL QB if he didn't have to go play six years in the CFL first before someone gave him a chance in the NFL.

Moon all day every day over Russell

How many Super Bowl appearances as a SEAHAWK QB.
Russ "All Day Every Day over" Moon.[/quote

What does that have to do with anything

Obviously Everything to me, & >>Nothing<<to you.

 

[ZorntoLargent]

IS HE? Or WILL HE BE?
Two totally different questions.
Is he? Not yet.
Will he be? Probably

 

[Elemas]

Folks tend to bring up things that favor their perspective. Again, it’s like saying Russ has only led us to one SB, or we didn’t make the playoffs, etc. Yet Marino is over there with zero SBs.

I think with QB's like Marino, and even Peyton Manning it's more about their era.

Russell has better stats than Manning if we're comparing first 10-11 years in the league, yet Manning broke passing records and had two MVP's.

Same with Marino. His stats and accomplishments look weak in comparison to Wilson and other modern QB's.

But these guys were the best in their era when they played. Russell isn't. Brady, Brees, Mahomes, etc. Guys who ARE winning MVP's and getting All Pro votes, while Wilson isn't.

That hurts him with this discussion.

Fair enough and I can see that perspective. I can’t recall ever thinking Russ was the best QB in the game. Part of my thinking is that we may never know. The guys you mentioned passed the ball way more than Russ. Perhaps that lingers in his mind as well? When you look at the efficiency and arm strength, you can almost justify (forgive me here) the phrase “Let Russ Cook”. I personally don’t prefer that type of offense. Not my preference but, I do believe that he’s capable of a lot more.

There is the thought that PC runs the offense this way to maximize RW’s strengths. The lack of passes up the middle (height restrictions) and check downs contributes to that thought.

But, within the bounds set before him, he’s performed very well.

Back to your point, I still have him in my top 5-6 current QBs. Debatable as I rank him higher than Murray, Dak, etc. But, definitely not #1.

 

[xray]

Folks tend to bring up things that favor their perspective. Again, it’s like saying Russ has only led us to one SB, or we didn’t make the playoffs, etc. Yet Marino is over there with zero SBs.

I think with QB's like Marino, and even Peyton Manning it's more about their era.

Russell has better stats than Manning if we're comparing first 10-11 years in the league, yet Manning broke passing records and had two MVP's.

Same with Marino. His stats and accomplishments look weak in comparison to Wilson and other modern QB's.

But these guys were the best in their era when they played. Russell isn't. Brady, Brees, Mahomes, etc. Guys who ARE winning MVP's and getting All Pro votes, while Wilson isn't.

That hurts him with this discussion.

^
And he knows that this group doesn't include him . And soon to be; this young bunch of QB's in the AFC will take over the league and leave Wilson behind . BTW , Moon retired & 44 . Wilson won't touch that . imo

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Back to your point, I still have him in my top 5-6 current QBs. Debatable as I rank him higher than Murray, Dak, etc. But, definitely not #1.

I would too, but only because Brady and Brees are now retired.

All time great? Clark is right, Wilson's not there yet, and might never be in that conversation unless he plays another 10 years and the Hawks (or whatever other teams he's on) win another SB or two.

Which I think is very possible.

 

[rcaido]

Stat's wise he's already in it. How can a player have the best 10years start and not be in the conversation as all time great.

As for the MVP, it hard to say. It seems like he is always runner up but being the second best. I really thought he should have been the MVP in 2015 & definitely that one year when he had 97% of the offensive score. I mean that's what MVP is all about, sadly they didn't make the playoffs because of the kickers.

Do you think Scam Newton, Matt Ryan, & Lamar Jackson be consider all time great because MVP? I doubt they even make the HOF. Breees never won anything, didn't get MVP is he all time great?

Other sports like the NBA, Stockton never won anything would he still be all time great?

Wilson deserves too be in it. If he plays 10 more years and keeps up to this level, it should be automatic.

He has been very consistent. Remember Andrew Luck, remember Scam Newton, Remember Kaepernick, remember Wentz, looks like Lamar is going to be the same,maybe Allen & Burrows too. Mahomes struggle a bit this year and who knows what will happen when he doesn't have the offensive talent surround him.... They get all this hype for 3 to 4 years or so then fizzled out, while Wilson continues to be consistent w/ the worse oline and subpar offensive weapons throughout most of his career.

 

[OrangeGravy]

Stat's wise he's already in it. How can a player have the best 10years start and not be in the conversation as all time great.

As for the MVP, it hard to say. It seems like he is always runner up but being the second best. I really thought he should have been the MVP in 2015 & definitely that one year when he had 97% of the offensive score. I mean that's what MVP is all about, sadly they didn't make the playoffs because of the kickers.

Do you think Scam Newton, Matt Ryan, & Lamar Jackson be consider all time great because MVP? I doubt they even make the HOF. Breees never won anything, didn't get MVP is he all time great?

Other sports like the NBA, Stockton never won anything would he still be all time great?

Wilson deserves too be in it. If he plays 10 more years and keeps up to this level, it should be automatic.

He has been very consistent. Remember Andrew Luck, remember Scam Newton, Remember Kaepernick, remember Wentz, looks like Lamar is going to be the same,maybe Allen & Burrows too. Mahomes struggle a bit this year and who knows what will happen when he doesn't have the offensive talent surround him.... They get all this hype for 3 to 4 years or so then fizzled out, while Wilson continues to be consistent w/ the worse oline and subpar offensive weapons throughout most of his career.

He's never been runner up because he's never been consistently good for an entire season. He's been in the conversation, but then fallen off a cliff in the back half of the season. Impossible to be runner up without receiving a vote, ever

 

[olyfan63]

Russell has huge holes in his game that can be covered up by a big-time power running game and an elite defense. He has a great deep ball, rarely throws picks, and has good escapability. However, because he struggles to truly read defenses, he doesn't know where to go for the easy move-the-chains completions, holds the ball too long and gets sacked a lot to kill drives. I suppose 3 and out followed by a punt is better than throwing a pick, it's just that, "do there really have to be so many 3 and outs?"

The pick in SB49 was, sadly, the truth about who Russell was at the time as a QB, and the Seahawks only had playoff success with the all-time great LOB defenses of 2013 & 2014. The Green Bay NFCCG after the 2014 season that got the Hawks to SB49 was also the truth about Russell vs. a good defense. Four picks, then one clutch game-winning TD from a defensive alignment he understood how to read.

Russell is an all-time-great game manager, a full two tiers above Super-Bowl champion game managers like Trent Dilfer. Sadly, I have to put him just below Roethlisberger, the the singular drive and play that Big Ben made to Santonio Holmes to win the SB and deny Kurt Warner and the Cinderella Cards. In a roughly similar situation, Russell threw the game-losing SB49 pick.

Russell would have to up his game and improve some of the holes in the next year to be worthy of HOF conversation, IMO. I realize a lot of people already put him up on that pedestal. I just hope for the team (if Russell is even here) to bring in the pieces needed for success, an elite defense and a pounding running game. Can Penny and a stable of good RBs with a cheap, road-grader OL replicate much of what Penny did over the last 5 games of 2021? Can this Sean Desai influence the D to get above middle-of-the-pack?