How long are morons gonna say LUCK > WILSON...??!!

[Tical21]

Anthony!, you're big on being able to prove whatever it is you say. Nice, my kind of guy! You've said that you chart every Seahawks play from the stands. I've asked you a few times to share some of the results from your data. Don't worry, I'll wait.

 

[RiverDog]

Let's be honest, it's all about that cool neckbeard!

Winner!

He looks like Andre the Giant Jr.

The "Face of the Franchise" looks more like the "Face of Geico" ...so easy even a caveman could do it!

 

[HawkWow]

Earlier I said I would in fact trade RW for Luck, but it wouldn't be done quite so casually. I hope to never see him in another jersey. And Just the fact we are debating such a trade speaks volumes about Wilson. I guarantee you Luck is going to have a HOF career. Some seem to be missing what this kid is. Luck's not just another #1 pick, he has all the tools to be an all timer. Both mentally and physically. Forget about how many post season INTs he's thrown to date, etc. There's a learning curve here and one that Wilson is totally disregarding. Like Luck, he is uber special and If he manages to stay healthy, he and Luck may enter Canton the same weekend.

So far Luck is not special and is NOT on track for a hall of fame career. His stats are all mediocre other than total passing yards due to his overly inflated and ill-advised pass attempt totals. Given his efficiency thus far he shouldn't even get that many pass attempts so really he has nothing special statistically going for him right now.

I think Luck does have potential, but I think you are very foolish that you would trade RW for Luck based on potential that up to this point may or may not come to fruition.

Right now Luck is just simply not that good... Maybe next year? I'll be waiting patiently...

I can't respect your opinion or analysis at all if you would be willing to trade Wilson for Luck based on imaginary scenarios that may or may not ever become reality. Luck's just not that good yet, Wilson > Luck.

Luck is not just another #1 pick? OK well that's cool but we got a #75 pick who is absolutely destroying him thus far in their careers...

Really? You "think Luck has potential"? Nostradamus had nothing on you, dude.

I won't comment further on your post because.. well, it's just too stupid.

 

[HawkWow]

They are both damn good, and will be for years. Who cares?

I wish I could blame this thread going on 5 1/2 pages too long on July boredom, but there were a bunch of Luck vs. Wilson threads during the season as well.

Three things you can count on in life;

1. Death
2. Taxes
3. Hawk fans raging against the machine over the smallest perceived slights

Perfect.

 

[Anthony!]

Anthony!, you're big on being able to prove whatever it is you say. Nice, my kind of guy! You've said that you chart every Seahawks play from the stands. I've asked you a few times to share some of the results from your data. Don't worry, I'll wait.

I posted the stuff from last season back in Feb, I will see if I still have it and let you know.

 

[Tical21]

Anthony!, you're big on being able to prove whatever it is you say. Nice, my kind of guy! You've said that you chart every Seahawks play from the stands. I've asked you a few times to share some of the results from your data. Don't worry, I'll wait.

I posted the stuff from last season back in Feb, I will see if I still have it and let you know.

If you're searching online for data, you can stop. You can't find that information online.

 

[RiverDog]

Man, I really like RG3. Softy interviewed him before the Husky Bowl game and he was just really well spoken and humble.

He was obviously hindered by the knee, but the guy balled in his rookie year. Fantastic arm to go with that mobility. Hope he comes back well.

One of the things that scared me about RG3 was that he burst onto the scene so quickly. Andrew Luck was being talked about as a Heisman candidate/NFL overall #1 for several years, would have been a #1 overall had he come out early, he was playing for a top 10 team, then RG3 came from out of no where to win the award and become one of the hottest NFL prospects in several years. Now after just two years, the shine has worn off that pretty penny the Redskins traded so much for to acquire.

 

[Jac]

When I looked at the stats, I was actually pretty surprised that Luck only threw for 465 more yards than Wilson (on 163 more attempts) given that the total passing yardage stat is what is really driving this perception. I also looked at the game log and noted that his games against the other NFCW opponents were:

SF: 17/26-159 yards-0 TDs-0 INTs
AZ: 20/39-163 yards-1 TD-1 INT
STL: 29/47-353 yards-1 TD-3 INTs

Obviously, Wilson has to face these same defences twice a year.

 

[nanomoz]

This will bother you always, unless one player or the other collapses. I'm trying to teach myself not to care (it's not easy), because:

 

[Anthony!]

Anthony!, you're big on being able to prove whatever it is you say. Nice, my kind of guy! You've said that you chart every Seahawks play from the stands. I've asked you a few times to share some of the results from your data. Don't worry, I'll wait.

I posted the stuff from last season back in Feb, I will see if I still have it and let you know.

If you're searching online for data, you can stop. You can't find that information online.

NO I am searching my new computer to see if I still have it, but I get your message and you can take a walk.

 

[Anthony!]

When I looked at the stats, I was actually pretty surprised that Luck only threw for 465 more yards than Wilson (on 163 more attempts) given that the total passing yardage stat is what is really driving this perception. I also looked at the game log and noted that his games against the other NFCW opponents were:

SF: 17/26-159 yards-0 TDs-0 INTs
AZ: 20/39-163 yards-1 TD-1 INT
STL: 29/47-353 yards-1 TD-3 INTs

Obviously, Wilson has to face these same defences twice a year.

allow me, someone else posted these but they appear accurate

First, we'll take a look at how each performed in their respective divisions.

Russell Wilson
NFC West - Not including the Seahawks
Average Defensive DVOA: -8.73
Completions: 77
Attempts: 141
Yards: 995
Completion Rate: 55%
TD: 9
INT: 3
Passer Rating: 89.4

Andrew Luck
AFC South - Not including the Colts
Average Defensive DVOA: 5.97
Completions: 124
Attempts: 212
Yards: 1422
Completion Rate: 58%
TD: 8
INT: 3
Passer Rating: 85.45

What we see here is that Russell Wilson plays in a division whose average defensive DVOA (-8.73) would be good enough to tie for 7th best in the league, and that's not including the Seahawks. Andrew Luck plays in a division whose average defense is well...below average (5.97). A score good for 9th worst. I actually fully expected to see Lucks numbers really stand out here considering the disparity of talent in the two divisions. Instead, we see Luck with a marginally better completion rate (3%), one fewer touchdown, and a passer rating four points lower than Wilson's, while throwing the ball 63 more times and gaining 427 more yards. The Yards and attempts can be explained away by offensive scheme; The shocking efficiency with which Wilson produces against far more competent division foes, cannot.

Against common opponents, the picture starts to get a little clearer. Keep in mind that Wilson has to play the Forty Niners, Cardinals, and Rams twice each while Luck got to throw against Houston, Jacksonville and Tennessee twice. The two divisions also played each other, so that's 9 common opponents. Common opponents are highlighted in blue in the chart above.

Russell Wilson Versus common opponents.

Completions: 126
Attempts: 216
Yards: 1577.00
Completion Rate: 58.33%
TD: 13
INT:5
Passer Rating: 91.53

Andrew Luck versus common opponents.

Completions: 190
Attempts: 324
Yards: 2097.00
Completion Rate: 58.64%
TD: 10
INT: 7
Passer Rating: 79.2

Clearly, Andrew Luck struggled against the rest of the NFC West, posting 675 yards, 2 TDs, 4INTs and a passer rating of 67.37.

This really brought down his common opponents score while Wilson's 582 yards, 4TDs and 2 INTs with a 95.52 passer rating against the rest of the south shot his up.

It's pretty evident that Wilson has been more efficient against much stiffer competition, and when factoring all common opponents is clearly the better player.

 

[RolandDeschain]

The answer to this issue is quite simple, in my opinion, and the answer originates from psychology.

The preference for Luck over Wilson begins (though doesn't end) with three major principles: Confirmation bias, the backfire effect, and the Ben Franklin effect. The confirmation bias, I think is obvious, especially when dealing with non-Seahawks fans. They "know" Luck is better, so they look for reasons to justify their position. (This is troubling when it happens with Seahawk fans who would still take Luck, despite everything they've seen with their own eyes.)

They have taken their position because of the Ben Franklin effect - which states that you come up with the reason behind your feelings after you've taken action, not vice versa. In this case, analysts and the casual fan have spent so long praising Andrew Luck, declaring him the next Peyton Manning, that they have no choice but to psychologically assume he's the best. Their action begets their feelings. In the opposite end, they've spent so long maligning "game manager" Russell Wilson, all they can feel towards him is disdain, at best.

The backfire effect then deals with the fact people will not only ignore facts that contradict their position, but they will, in fact, dig into their conclusions even further. So whenever you present the multitude of accomplishments Wilson has (that Luck doesn't), you're actually losing the war.

Finally, there is a very simple reason GMs will not outwardly praise Wilson, and it's job security. The only man who can publicly enjoy Wilson's success is Schneider. If any one else were to say that Wilson is better than Luck, the first question they'll receive in response is: Why didn't you draft him? Even a successful GM will have that blackmark on his resume when his team takes a nose dive to mediocrity (or worse.) (Whereas as Pete and Jon played chicken with the NFL and won.) So they have to publicly decry Russell, else they fall under scrutiny. They, after all, had no choice but to 'pass' on Luck, since they had no chance to draft him in the first place.

This is why the players voted Wilson higher. They will not feel the same scourge on their backs.

We all know Wilson has accomplished more and accordingly deserved the MVP talk during the middle of last season. He will continue to play at a high level and prove people wrong, while Luck maintains his current career trajectory more in the line of Peyton Manning (1 ring) or Dan Marino (well, you know). That's fine by me.

It kills me how most people ignore their biases. EVERYBODY is biased and the only way you can get around it is to acknowledge it and mentally confront it, and then make a concerted effort to not let it affect what you're thinking.

 

[Anthony!]

The answer to this issue is quite simple, in my opinion, and the answer originates from psychology.

The preference for Luck over Wilson begins (though doesn't end) with three major principles: Confirmation bias, the backfire effect, and the Ben Franklin effect. The confirmation bias, I think is obvious, especially when dealing with non-Seahawks fans. They "know" Luck is better, so they look for reasons to justify their position. (This is troubling when it happens with Seahawk fans who would still take Luck, despite everything they've seen with their own eyes.)

They have taken their position because of the Ben Franklin effect - which states that you come up with the reason behind your feelings after you've taken action, not vice versa. In this case, analysts and the casual fan have spent so long praising Andrew Luck, declaring him the next Peyton Manning, that they have no choice but to psychologically assume he's the best. Their action begets their feelings. In the opposite end, they've spent so long maligning "game manager" Russell Wilson, all they can feel towards him is disdain, at best.

The backfire effect then deals with the fact people will not only ignore facts that contradict their position, but they will, in fact, dig into their conclusions even further. So whenever you present the multitude of accomplishments Wilson has (that Luck doesn't), you're actually losing the war.

Finally, there is a very simple reason GMs will not outwardly praise Wilson, and it's job security. The only man who can publicly enjoy Wilson's success is Schneider. If any one else were to say that Wilson is better than Luck, the first question they'll receive in response is: Why didn't you draft him? Even a successful GM will have that blackmark on his resume when his team takes a nose dive to mediocrity (or worse.) (Whereas as Pete and Jon played chicken with the NFL and won.) So they have to publicly decry Russell, else they fall under scrutiny. They, after all, had no choice but to 'pass' on Luck, since they had no chance to draft him in the first place.

This is why the players voted Wilson higher. They will not feel the same scourge on their backs.

We all know Wilson has accomplished more and accordingly deserved the MVP talk during the middle of last season. He will continue to play at a high level and prove people wrong, while Luck maintains his current career trajectory more in the line of Peyton Manning (1 ring) or Dan Marino (well, you know). That's fine by me.

It kills me how most people ignore their biases. EVERYBODY is biased and the only way you can get around it is to acknowledge it and mentally confront it, and then make a concerted effort to not let it affect what you're thinking.

Good post but I would argue Lucks current trajectory is not that of Manning or Marino but more of an avg QB, given his career numbers to date are at best avg. Both Manning and Morino by the end of year 2 had some stats that showed they were excelling, Luck has none, well except Ints in the playoffs. IF you look at ESPN stats at the QB position there is not 1 thing Luck is in the top 10 on, if he was on the same trajectory as Manning or Marino he would be top 10 in something. On the flip Side Rw is top 10 in YPA, TDs, QB rating. Those are 3 of the most important stats for a QB, if Luck were on a trajectory for Manning or Marino he old at least be top 10 in one of these.

 

[Hawkpower]

They are both damn good, and will be for years. Who cares?

I wish I could blame this thread going on 5 1/2 pages too long on July boredom, but there were a bunch of Luck vs. Wilson threads during the season as well.

Three things you can count on in life;

1. Death
2. Taxes
3. Hawk fans raging against the machine over the smallest perceived slights

4. Posters who clearly are better than the rest of us and bless us with their rational approach to fandom :roll:


Can hawk fans have a bit of chip on their shoulder? Sure. Is some of it unnecessary? Probably

Is this a case of that at all? Not even remotely.

A "small perceived slight" is an offhand comment or two here and there. It is not an egregious ignorance of facts data and cold hard facts in order to continue a fallacy that makes good ole boys feel warm in their hearts.

 

[chris98251]

Peyton had Dungy to start his career, Marino had Shula, I think both coaches were better at giving their QB's room to improve but not dump to much on them till they showed they could do it, both coaches also catered to their strengths and put supporting casts around them to accell.

I am not so sure Luck has that.


We do know Wilson has a reasonable supporting cast and a system that allows him to grow and is fed to him based on his ability to grasp and play within it. He gets a line that can pass block and open holes to allow our backs to get to the line without contact and we will see a whole different level of success with Wilson.

 

[Anthony!]

Peyton had Dungy to start his career, Marino had Shula, I think both coaches were better at giving their QB's room to improve but not dump to much on them till they showed they could do it, both coaches also catered to their strengths and put supporting casts around them to accell.

I am not so sure Luck has that.


We do know Wilson has a reasonable supporting cast and a system that allows him to grow and is fed to him based on his ability to grasp and play within it. He gets a line that can pass block and open holes to allow our backs to get to the line without contact and we will see a whole different level of success with Wilson.

Considering they went out and got Hakeem Nicks, and several O-line players I would say they are doing plenty to help him succeed,

 

[Tokadub]

Earlier I said I would in fact trade RW for Luck, but it wouldn't be done quite so casually. I hope to never see him in another jersey. And Just the fact we are debating such a trade speaks volumes about Wilson. I guarantee you Luck is going to have a HOF career. Some seem to be missing what this kid is. Luck's not just another #1 pick, he has all the tools to be an all timer. Both mentally and physically. Forget about how many post season INTs he's thrown to date, etc. There's a learning curve here and one that Wilson is totally disregarding. Like Luck, he is uber special and If he manages to stay healthy, he and Luck may enter Canton the same weekend.

So far Luck is not special and is NOT on track for a hall of fame career. His stats are all mediocre other than total passing yards due to his overly inflated and ill-advised pass attempt totals. Given his efficiency thus far he shouldn't even get that many pass attempts so really he has nothing special statistically going for him right now.

I think Luck does have potential, but I think you are very foolish that you would trade RW for Luck based on potential that up to this point may or may not come to fruition.

Right now Luck is just simply not that good... Maybe next year? I'll be waiting patiently...

I can't respect your opinion or analysis at all if you would be willing to trade Wilson for Luck based on imaginary scenarios that may or may not ever become reality. Luck's just not that good yet, Wilson > Luck.

Luck is not just another #1 pick? OK well that's cool but we got a #75 pick who is absolutely destroying him thus far in their careers...

Really? You "think Luck has potential"? Nostradamus had nothing on you, dude.

I won't comment further on your post because.. well, it's just too stupid.

I don't like to get into arguments with my Hawk Brethren but YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS TOO STUPID!

But are you even a Hawk Brethren if you would trade Wilson for Luck with NO INTELLIGENT INSIGHT WHATSOEVER? You're basically saying you would instantly trade Wilson for Luck based on potential alone... BUT THEN YOU BASH ME FOR SAYING LUCK HAS POTENTIAL? ARE YOU NUTS?!

This is a quote from you HawkWow and honestly it is one of the STUPIDEST THINGS I HAVE EVER HEARD, sorry but it's true. You said:

Wilson is my favorite QB in the entire league. Straight up trade? I'd take Luck 10 times out of 10. No question. Zero.

One poster above summed this thread up nicely with his proclamation "I only watch one team in the NFL". He's not alone.

So basically you admit that You would take Luck over "Wilson 10 times out of 10" in your own words!

You then in the very next sentence state that you "only watch one team in the NFL".

I'm sorry HawkWow but the only stupid person here is YOU!

I can't imagine one single person EVER making such stupid statements in a row... BACK TO BACK STUPIDITY... that's downright embarrassing. I feel sorry for you because you don't have one single shred of evidence, you basically just said:

"I like Luck and want to trade Wilson for him because I am stupid"

That's really what you did there, if you want to say that then BACK IT UP!!! You sound like a mindless sheep fool.

 

[Tokadub]

They are both damn good, and will be for years. Who cares?

I wish I could blame this thread going on 5 1/2 pages too long on July boredom, but there were a bunch of Luck vs. Wilson threads during the season as well.

Three things you can count on in life;

1. Death
2. Taxes
3. Hawk fans raging against the machine over the smallest perceived slights

Smallest perceived slights? Wilson is getting down right slapped in the face by anyone who says Luck is better at this point in their careers. Wilson has flat out earned his respect.

Wilson has a Superbowl Ring, many Rookie records/ties. Many 2nd year QB records/ties. What does Luck have? He was projected as a #1 pick and has put up some flat out mediocre stats? His only claim to fame is "resurrecting a bad team"? Well the bad team wasn't even bad they just "Sucked for Luck", it's obvious...

Wilson is in literally every single way imaginable a better QB than Luck at this point of their careers. Could that change someday? Sure. Could Luck put up better stats than Wilson next year? Wouldn't even surprise me that much given how bad our Offensive Line is...

BUT UNTIL LUCK ACTUALLY DOES IT... then just shut up with all this Luck > Wilson crap! You are living in a fantasy land and it's downright disrespectful to the Super Bowl Champ Russell Wilson.

I will have no problem giving Luck props once he actually performs but he HASN'T DONE IT!

I am seriously worried about how stupid some people must be to say Luck is better than Wilson when there's NOT ONE SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE, STATS, OR EXAMPLES... THERE IS LITERALLY NOTHING TO SUPPORT THIS ARGUMENT, IT IS IN FACT FALSE.

If LUCK can EVER match or exceed Wilson I'll be the first to admit that, but I will never be one of these mindless bafoons touting up another QB based on imaginary potential.

 

[Tical21]

They are both damn good, and will be for years. Who cares?

I wish I could blame this thread going on 5 1/2 pages too long on July boredom, but there were a bunch of Luck vs. Wilson threads during the season as well.

Three things you can count on in life;

1. Death
2. Taxes
3. Hawk fans raging against the machine over the smallest perceived slights

Smallest perceived slights? Wilson is getting down right slapped in the face by anyone who says Luck is better at this point in their careers. Wilson has flat out earned his respect.

Wilson has a Superbowl Ring, many Rookie records/ties. Many 2nd year QB records/ties. What does Luck have? He was projected as a #1 pick and has put up some flat out mediocre stats? His only claim to fame is "resurrecting a bad team"? Well the bad team wasn't even bad they just "Sucked for Luck", it's obvious...

Wilson is in literally every single way imaginable a better QB than Luck at this point of their careers. Could that change someday? Sure. Could Luck put up better stats than Wilson next year? Wouldn't even surprise me that much given how bad our Offensive Line is...

BUT UNTIL LUCK ACTUALLY DOES IT... then just shut up with all this Luck > Wilson crap! You are living in a fantasy land and it's downright disrespectful to the Super Bowl Champ Russell Wilson.

I will have no problem giving Luck props once he actually performs but he HASN'T DONE IT!

I am seriously worried about how stupid some people must be to say Luck is better than Wilson when there's NOT ONE SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE, STATS, OR EXAMPLES... THERE IS LITERALLY NOTHING TO SUPPORT THIS ARGUMENT, IT IS IN FACT FALSE.

If LUCK can EVER match or exceed Wilson I'll be the first to admit that, but I will never be one of these mindless bafoons touting up another QB based on imaginary potential.

Wouldn't it be great if these two guys get together and have a big showdown? Oh, that's right, they did, and Luck vastly outplayed Wilson.

 

[Anthony!]

They are both damn good, and will be for years. Who cares?

I wish I could blame this thread going on 5 1/2 pages too long on July boredom, but there were a bunch of Luck vs. Wilson threads during the season as well.

Three things you can count on in life;

1. Death
2. Taxes
3. Hawk fans raging against the machine over the smallest perceived slights

Smallest perceived slights? Wilson is getting down right slapped in the face by anyone who says Luck is better at this point in their careers. Wilson has flat out earned his respect.

Wilson has a Superbowl Ring, many Rookie records/ties. Many 2nd year QB records/ties. What does Luck have? He was projected as a #1 pick and has put up some flat out mediocre stats? His only claim to fame is "resurrecting a bad team"? Well the bad team wasn't even bad they just "Sucked for Luck", it's obvious...

Wilson is in literally every single way imaginable a better QB than Luck at this point of their careers. Could that change someday? Sure. Could Luck put up better stats than Wilson next year? Wouldn't even surprise me that much given how bad our Offensive Line is...

BUT UNTIL LUCK ACTUALLY DOES IT... then just shut up with all this Luck > Wilson crap! You are living in a fantasy land and it's downright disrespectful to the Super Bowl Champ Russell Wilson.

I will have no problem giving Luck props once he actually performs but he HASN'T DONE IT!

I am seriously worried about how stupid some people must be to say Luck is better than Wilson when there's NOT ONE SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE, STATS, OR EXAMPLES... THERE IS LITERALLY NOTHING TO SUPPORT THIS ARGUMENT, IT IS IN FACT FALSE.

If LUCK can EVER match or exceed Wilson I'll be the first to admit that, but I will never be one of these mindless bafoons touting up another QB based on imaginary potential.

Wouldn't it be great if these two guys get together and have a big showdown? Oh, that's right, they did, and Luck vastly outplayed Wilson.

Well for one I would not say vastly outplayed him

Luck 16/29 229 yards, 7.9 ypa, 2 tds 0 ints, 9 yards rushing
Rw 15/31 210 yards, 6.8 yoa 2 tds 1 int, 102 yards rushing


I would agree Luck did out play Rw but not vastly, so in your pea brain since they met once and Luck outplayed him that means luck it better. Hmm so lets use the logic, That means Tannehill who outplayed Luck when they met last year and won is better than Luck, That means Palmer who really outplayed Luck is better than Luck, That also means Clemens who badly out played Luck is better than luck. Wow thanks for bringing this to our attention how can Luck be considered so great when he was outplayed by the 36th ranked QB in the league. WOW

Oh and of course by your logic that also means Geno Smith is better than Tom Brady who he beat and out played, and it means that Tennehill is better than Brady who he beat and out played once last year, And Clemens who is better than Luck since he oput0polayed them in their one game against each other is also better than Brees who he outplayed and beat, Also that means Dalton is better than Aaron Rodger since he out played Aaron, Oh and 2 years ago Schaub outoplayed P. Manning in their only meeting so I guess Schaub is better than Manning. I Can go on and on, but I made my point.

Feel silly yet? You should dumbest post yet.