Denver defense - Overhyped

[DeathbyTalons]

I'm getting a little tired about hearing how underrated the Denver defense is. In both playoff games they played against offenses with key missing players. San Diego's powerful rush attack was affected by injury to Matthews and the Patriots' receiving core has been completely decimated. Having a mobile and smart QB, a bruising rush attack and the addition of Harvin, I think we are going to embarrass the Denver D.

The Seahawks will likely be playing from behind, so Wilson will be forced to pass the ball often. The rushing attack, no matter how good it is, really gets taken out of the picture when you're down by a couple scores. I'm not convinced Seattle can answer with a score each time Denver scores. Stopping Manning is nearly impossible, you just have to keep it close and hope for a lucky break or a mistake.

Wow you learned absolutely nothing from the last game. Your boy had three straight turnovers in the final quarter and was nearly sacked two other times that quarter save for Kaepernicks legs. So are you saying that the rest of the nfl is wrong in proclaiming Frisco as the number one o-line? How's Peyton gonna do under pressure? Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth. Sounds like a taste of wishful thinking nickel, how's them sour grapes taste a day's later?

 

[Polaris]

Whoa :177692:

Denver's defense is:

1. Soft in the gap
2. Slow out on the edge
3. Mediocre in the secondary, at best.

But again, can Seattle score every time Denver scores? They're going to score, the question is can the Seattle keep up? I could be TOTALLY wrong here, but I see Wilson forced into a shootout with Manning which could be tough, considering receivers, experience, etc.

It's not going to be a shoot out. Seattle's defense is exactly the sort of defense that gives Denver fits. Seattle is a physical disruptive defense that wrecks timing routes and actually isn't all that complex (so there isn't much to 'read') that generates very tiny windows and seldom makes mistakes.

To be sure Peyton is Peyton and Peyton will get his, but I don't see Denver getting to 20. Are the Seahawks good enough to play from behind and win with both Lynch and Wilson. Well....you of all people know the answer to that one and your (Niner) defense is MUCH better than anything that Denver has.

So yes, I think you are totally wrong. I also think hopefully without being too unkind that you are letting a bit of bitterness from the Championship game cloud your perceptions here.

 

[Sarlacc83]

I'm getting a little tired about hearing how underrated the Denver defense is. In both playoff games they played against offenses with key missing players. San Diego's powerful rush attack was affected by injury to Matthews and the Patriots' receiving core has been completely decimated. Having a mobile and smart QB, a bruising rush attack and the addition of Harvin, I think we are going to embarrass the Denver D.

The Seahawks will likely be playing from behind, so Wilson will be forced to pass the ball often. The rushing attack, no matter how good it is, really gets taken out of the picture when you're down by a couple scores. I'm not convinced Seattle can answer with a score each time Denver scores. Stopping Manning is nearly impossible, you just have to keep it close and hope for a lucky break or a mistake.

You don't know what you're talking about.

That was definitely a thoughtful, well articulated, knowledgable rebuttal to my point of view.

Seeing as there wasn't any type of reasoning behind your post, it wasn't worth the time to write out a full response,because it was typical Niner nonsense. If you bring nuances to the discussion, then we'll talk, but until then, you don't get points for saying a team that's scored 26 and 24 points in the playoffs is going to score at will.

 

[Missing_Clink]

The only thing about Denver's D that genuinely worries me is Terrence Knighton and the Bronco's interior pressure v the Hawk interior O line. He will absolutely annihilate Unger or Sweezy, 2 smaller, less physical dudes. Carp and Bowie could probably stand him up most of the time, but they would also surely make some big mistakes against him. If we can control interior pressure somehow, I think the offense will look great. But controlling it will be tough.

 

[Nickel]

I'm getting a little tired about hearing how underrated the Denver defense is. In both playoff games they played against offenses with key missing players. San Diego's powerful rush attack was affected by injury to Matthews and the Patriots' receiving core has been completely decimated. Having a mobile and smart QB, a bruising rush attack and the addition of Harvin, I think we are going to embarrass the Denver D.

The Seahawks will likely be playing from behind, so Wilson will be forced to pass the ball often. The rushing attack, no matter how good it is, really gets taken out of the picture when you're down by a couple scores. I'm not convinced Seattle can answer with a score each time Denver scores. Stopping Manning is nearly impossible, you just have to keep it close and hope for a lucky break or a mistake.

Wow you learned absolutely nothing from the last game. Your boy had three straight turnovers in the final quarter and was nearly sacked two other times that quarter save for Kaepernicks legs. So are you saying that the rest of the nfl is wrong in proclaiming Frisco as the number one o-line? How's Peyton gonna do under pressure? Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth. Sounds like a taste of wishful thinking nickel, how's them sour grapes taste a day's later?

First, I'm not sour -- this is a game. It's entertainment. The team's struggles, progress, and achievements are not my own struggles, progress, and achievements. I'm just happy to watch good games, and sometimes my local teams do well.

Second, you're comparing a raw QB with barely a full season of play under his belt to a well experienced and polished first ballot Hall of Famer. That's laughable and requires no response other than a point and a laugh.

Lastly, how's Peyton going to do under pressure? I don't know, let's look at how he's faired for his entire career. Let's look at this last season, when he broke the TD pass record. You think he might've been under pressure just a few times this season, or within his 14 year career of throwing TDs and embarrassing defenses?

You've got a mostly immobile QB who was sacked only 18 times this season. Major credit to his OL and decision making/reads/adjustment abilities. The most he's ever been sacked in a season is 29 times. Compare him to a highly mobile QB like Wilson, who got sacked 44 times this season, and 33 last season. Peyton doesn't need much time to see a play develop or scramble for his life because he knows from the start what his options are in virtually every scenario.

Sure, the Seahawks have an amazing defense and nobody can even question that. But the assumption that this game is going to be one-sided is grossly laughable. If it does end up being one-sided, it will be in favor of the team with the Hall of Famer QB.

 

[Nickel]

Whoa :177692:

Denver's defense is:

1. Soft in the gap
2. Slow out on the edge
3. Mediocre in the secondary, at best.

But again, can Seattle score every time Denver scores? They're going to score, the question is can the Seattle keep up? I could be TOTALLY wrong here, but I see Wilson forced into a shootout with Manning which could be tough, considering receivers, experience, etc.

It's not going to be a shoot out. Seattle's defense is exactly the sort of defense that gives Denver fits. Seattle is a physical disruptive defense that wrecks timing routes and actually isn't all that complex (so there isn't much to 'read') that generates very tiny windows and seldom makes mistakes.

To be sure Peyton is Peyton and Peyton will get his, but I don't see Denver getting to 20. Are the Seahawks good enough to play from behind and win with both Lynch and Wilson. Well....you of all people know the answer to that one and your (Niner) defense is MUCH better than anything that Denver has.

So yes, I think you are totally wrong. I also think hopefully without being too unkind that you are letting a bit of bitterness from the Championship game cloud your perceptions here.

You might be right, but that's why I said "I could be TOTALLY wrong" on the last page. I just don't see it playing out the same way as many others here. I get it, most people won't admit they've got some reservations about their team in a big game.

As for bitterness, look at my last post. It's a game, and the purpose is entertainment. The team doesn't pay my bills or generate any life achievements for me. I just like watching good sports. On top of that, my Giants just brought two trophies home in the last 3 years, and the Niners have gone to the NFCCG for the last 3 years in a row. If anything, I'm quite satisfied with Bay Area sports.

Edit: Forgot to add that I'm really looking forward to the Super Bowl, since the (arguably) best D vs. the (arguably) best O is always entertaining. I remember the Raiders having the best O and getting crushed by the best D (Tampa) back in 2003. But then again, Rich Gannon is no Peyton Manning.

 

[DeathbyTalons]

I'm getting a little tired about hearing how underrated the Denver defense is. In both playoff games they played against offenses with key missing players. San Diego's powerful rush attack was affected by injury to Matthews and the Patriots' receiving core has been completely decimated. Having a mobile and smart QB, a bruising rush attack and the addition of Harvin, I think we are going to embarrass the Denver D.

The Seahawks will likely be playing from behind, so Wilson will be forced to pass the ball often. The rushing attack, no matter how good it is, really gets taken out of the picture when you're down by a couple scores. I'm not convinced Seattle can answer with a score each time Denver scores. Stopping Manning is nearly impossible, you just have to keep it close and hope for a lucky break or a mistake.

Wow you learned absolutely nothing from the last game. Your boy had three straight turnovers in the final quarter and was nearly sacked two other times that quarter save for Kaepernicks legs. So are you saying that the rest of the nfl is wrong in proclaiming Frisco as the number one o-line? How's Peyton gonna do under pressure? Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth. Sounds like a taste of wishful thinking nickel, how's them sour grapes taste a day's later?

First, I'm not sour -- this is a game. It's entertainment. The team's struggles, progress, and achievements are not my own struggles, progress, and achievements. I'm just happy to watch good games, and sometimes my local teams do well.

Second, you're comparing a raw QB with barely a full season of play under his belt to a well experienced and polished first ballot Hall of Famer. That's laughable and requires no response other than a point and a laugh.

Lastly, how's Peyton going to do under pressure? I don't know, let's look at how he's faired for his entire career. Let's look at this last season, when he broke the TD pass record. You think he might've been under pressure just a few times this season, or within his 14 year career of throwing TDs and embarrassing defenses?

You've got a mostly immobile QB who was sacked only 18 times this season. Major credit to his OL and decision making/reads/adjustment abilities. The most he's ever been sacked in a season is 29 times. Compare him to a highly mobile QB like Wilson, who got sacked 44 times this season, and 33 last season. Peyton doesn't need much time to see a play develop or scramble for his life because he knows from the start what his options are in virtually every scenario.

Sure, the Seahawks have an amazing defense and nobody can even question that. But the assumption that this game is going to be one-sided is grossly laughable. If it does end up being one-sided, it will be in favor of the team with the Hall of Famer QB.

His entire career sure you that to be the anchor of your argument given his epic history of failure in the post season?

 

[EntiatHawk]

Nickle, Have you seen Manning in playoff games against very good defenses?

Here is the year he won it all (Playoff), do you see something here? Yeah the yeah he had the best defense he has had.

Year W | L Att Com Pct Yards Yds/Att Long Td Int QB Rating
2006 4-0 153 97 63.3 1034 6.8 53T 3 7 70.5

Here are his two SB appearances-
Year W | L Att Com Pct Yards Yds/Att Long Td Int QB Rating
2006 W 38 25 65.8 247 6.5 53T 1 1 81.7
2009 L 45 31 68.9 333 7.4 27 1 1 88.4

Is it not curious that the time he won that he actually had poorer stat, hmmm.

Scoring a ton of point in the Superbowl is not the norm. Here is a question to you how do you think the 49ers would of faired?

 

[Nickel]

His entire career sure you that to be the anchor of your argument given his epic history of failure in the post season?

Most fans don't realize this is a team sport, so I don't bother trying to explain it; however if you wanted to go that route, we could call Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Dan Marino, and many others "epic failures."

 

[DeathbyTalons]

His entire career sure you that to be the anchor of your argument given his epic history of failure in the post season?

Most fans don't realize this is a team sport, so I don't bother trying to explain it; however if you wanted to go that route, we could call Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Dan Marino, and many others "epic failures."[/qucote]
But according to you he has a 14 year history of embarrassing defenses, so to extrapolate you assert that Manning will embarrass this defense.....in a team sense.... on his own.

 

[Nickel]

Nickle, Have you seen Manning in playoff games against very good defenses?

Here is the year he won it all (Playoff), do you see something here? Yeah the yeah he had the best defense he has had.

Year W | L Att Com Pct Yards Yds/Att Long Td Int QB Rating
2006 4-0 153 97 63.3 1034 6.8 53T 3 7 70.5

Here are his two SB appearances-
Year W | L Att Com Pct Yards Yds/Att Long Td Int QB Rating
2006 W 38 25 65.8 247 6.5 53T 1 1 81.7
2009 L 45 31 68.9 333 7.4 27 1 1 88.4

Is it not curious that the time he won that he actually had poorer stat, hmmm.

Scoring a ton of point in the Superbowl is not the norm. Here is a question to you how do you think the 49ers would of faired?

First, the Colts are not the Broncos. Second, the Peyton Manning of 8 years ago is not the Peyton Manning of today. Additionally, the defenses he and his team faced were completely different. There are far too many variables that make these stats irrelevant.

Lastly, I don't think the Niners would have done well. I was worried about that from the start, and was cheering for the Patriots to beat the Broncos if the Niners were to beat the Seahawks. Neither happened, but I realized there's a very good chance the Hawks would beat the Niners, and I was nearly certain the Broncos would beat the Patriots.

One of my main causes for concern was the fact that the Niners have to establish the run, since Kaepernick's passing fluctuates from good to bad. The Broncos have the best run D in the league this year, and they've got one of the best QBs to ever play the game. I honestly wasn't feeling good about that match up.

 

[Polaris]

The Broncos have the best run D in the league this year, .....

No they don't. The Cardinals had the best run defense and I think your Niners were up there in the top five.

If you go by DVOA, then it's even less true. Denver's Run defense is adequate and that's about it.

Edit PS: Also don't forget that Denver got up big on some teams forcing teams to abandon the run. This artificially inflates the Denver run defense using conventional stats (but not DVOA which is one big reason I trust DVOA over conventional stats).

 

[Nickel]

His entire career sure you that to be the anchor of your argument given his epic history of failure in the post season?

Most fans don't realize this is a team sport, so I don't bother trying to explain it; however if you wanted to go that route, we could call Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Dan Marino, and many others "epic failures."[/qucote]
But according to you he has a 14 year history of embarrassing defenses, so to extrapolate you assert that Manning will embarrass this defense.....in a team sense.... on his own.

You're asserting - whether intentionally or unintentionally - that Manning only does well against mediocre to bad defenses. I'm asserting that he's had success, with two different teams, against a multitude of defenses. While he's been with two teams, in different stages of his career and different personnel in supporting casts, he's always been effective. Couple that with the fact he just had the best year of his career, and you've got a quite a challenge.

 

[volsunghawk]

The Broncos have the best run D in the league this year, and they've got one of the best QBs to ever play the game.

The first part of this sentence is not true in any way.

The Broncos run D was not the best in terms of yards. It was tied for 7th with... the Seahawks.

The Broncos run D gave up 15 TDs this year. That was 9th WORST in the league. The Seahawks run D - in comparison - gave up 4 rushing TDs, tied for best in the league.

You did get the 2nd part of the sentence right, at least.

 

[Nickel]

The Broncos have the best run D in the league this year, .....

No they don't. The Cardinals had the best run defense and I think your Niners were up there in the top five.

If you go by DVOA, then it's even less true. Denver's Run defense is adequate and that's about it.

Edit PS: Also don't forget that Denver got up big on some teams forcing teams to abandon the run. This artificially inflates the Denver run defense using conventional stats (but not DVOA which is one big reason I trust DVOA over conventional stats).

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... 447263-n=1

There's their standing in the NFL as far as rushing defense goes. You are absolutely right that stats get inflated by the fact many teams are playing from behind and thus abandoning the run.

 

[Largent80]

Manning has also choked in MANY playoff games.

 

[volsunghawk]

The Broncos have the best run D in the league this year, .....

No they don't. The Cardinals had the best run defense and I think your Niners were up there in the top five.

If you go by DVOA, then it's even less true. Denver's Run defense is adequate and that's about it.

Edit PS: Also don't forget that Denver got up big on some teams forcing teams to abandon the run. This artificially inflates the Denver run defense using conventional stats (but not DVOA which is one big reason I trust DVOA over conventional stats).

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats? ... 447263-n=1

There's their standing in the NFL as far as rushing defense goes. You are absolutely right that stats get inflated by the fact many teams are playing from behind and thus abandoning the run.

You need to understand how the interwebs work better. That's the stats for postseason only. Hooray for small sample size.

 

[Polaris]

You're asserting - whether intentionally or unintentionally - that Manning only does well against mediocre to bad defenses. I'm asserting that he's had success, with two different teams, against a multitude of defenses. While he's been with two teams, in different stages of his career and different personnel in supporting casts, he's always been effective. Couple that with the fact he just had the best year of his career, and you've got a quite a challenge.

No, what he's saying is that this year Manning has feasted on medocre to bad defenses and it's true. Denver has had the easiest schedule in the entire NFL. Remember when we were calling KC frauds when they went on their 9-0 run. Much the same applies here.

That doesn't mean that Peyton isn't a HoF QB or that he can't beat good defenses. It means, however, that Denver as a team doesn't have much around Peyton OTHER than Peyton Manning especially on defense. It's also true that Denver on offense has been steadily declining the entire second half of the season. That's not so for Seattle's defense.

 

[DeathbyTalons]

His entire career sure you that to be the anchor of your argument given his epic history of failure in the post season?

Most fans don't realize this is a team sport, so I don't bother trying to explain it; however if you wanted to go that route, we could call Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Dan Marino, and many others "epic failures."[/qucote]
But according to you he has a 14 year history of embarrassing defenses, so to extrapolate you assert that Manning will embarrass this defense.....in a team sense.... on his own.

You're asserting - whether intentionally or unintentionally - that Manning only does well against mediocre to bad defenses. I'm asserting that he's had success, with two different teams, against a multitude of defenses. While he's been with two teams, in different stages of his career and different personnel in supporting casts, he's always been effective. Couple that with the fact he just had the best year of his career, and you've got a quite a challenge.

Well yeah I'm asserting the guy has become a stats monster on he backs of largely average to below average D' s all year. And?

 

[hawk45]

I'm getting a little tired about hearing how underrated the Denver defense is. In both playoff games they played against offenses with key missing players. San Diego's powerful rush attack was affected by injury to Matthews and the Patriots' receiving core has been completely decimated. Having a mobile and smart QB, a bruising rush attack and the addition of Harvin, I think we are going to embarrass the Denver D.

The Seahawks will likely be playing from behind, so Wilson will be forced to pass the ball often. The rushing attack, no matter how good it is, really gets taken out of the picture when you're down by a couple scores. I'm not convinced Seattle can answer with a score each time Denver scores. Stopping Manning is nearly impossible, you just have to keep it close and hope for a lucky break or a mistake.

So vs. San Diego Denver scored 24, and vs. New England Denver scored 26. Neither of those 2 teams have defenses in the same zip code as ours I think you would agree.

I get that all games don't have to fall into trends, but this trend is what we have to go on for these playoffs. So, looking at that, and remembering how much better Seattle's defense is, you think it's *likely* that Seattle is playing from behind?

Me I see a good chance the Broncos are limited to 20 or less. The Seattle offense is capable of matching that output even without Harvin. With Harvin their chances are even better.