Biggest difference between Harbaugh and Carroll

With the top coaches list coming out and Harbaugh being rated much higher then Carroll, I think they forgot to mention one big difference

Harbaugh did not really build the 49ers roster. Singletary had more to do with building the roster. Yes Harbaugh made some good improvements with Aldon Smith and Kaepernick but in all reality he inherited a very good team. 20 of his 22 starters were all ready in place when he arrived.

Now Carroll completely built his team. Very few remain from the previous regime. Red, Unger and Mebane come to mind but after that you really have to think about it. Yes JS gets some credit, but that hire was also Pete Carroll's decision

Harbaugh is getting the credit, due to making it to the Superbowl.

when Harbaugh took over that roster, He already had all the talent he needed. If they didn't have a good roster to begin with they would have been going through the same process the Carroll has had to go through in Seattle. If you get somewhere and you go....holy crap....i have a lot of awesome players....you are basically just strengthening your roster. The Seahawks had to start from scratch pretty much when Carroll got there.

one has grey hair, the other is a complete tool

Give Harbaugh credit: He can develop offensive players with almost the same proficiency that Carroll develops defensive players.

However, what Carroll did to turn a team with little talent around in three years is more impressive than Harbaugh coaching ten-win talent into the Super Bowl, yes.

Pretty simple, really.

Pete Carroll



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Jim Harbaugh



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One has coached a team to a national championship, the other is a total dick.

That Carroll gif gets me every time.

I can't stand Harbaugh like most of you but, his does deserve credit for the turn around.
Like others have said, he did inherit a talented team but, Singletary had most of that team and did little with the talent.

Smelly McUgly":2cmku2q0 said:

Give Harbaugh credit: He can develop offensive players with almost the same proficiency that Carroll develops defensive players.

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Who, like A.J. Jenkins? I'm not ready to proclaim Harbaugh a master at developing offensive players at all right now, personally. Where's the evidence?

RolandDeschain":3b6x9wax said:

Smelly McUgly":3b6x9wax said:

Give Harbaugh credit: He can develop offensive players with almost the same proficiency that Carroll develops defensive players.

Click to expand...

Who, like A.J. Jenkins? I'm not ready to proclaim Harbaugh a master at developing offensive players at all right now, personally. Where's the evidence?

Click to expand...

Kaepernick would be Exhibit A. Making Alex Smith an above-average QB would be Exhibit B. Turning the SF OL into one of the three best in the league would be Exhibit C.

You have a point about WRs though. Kyle Williams and AJ Jenkins are garbage (so far).

Smelly McUgly":3s596bmk said:

RolandDeschain":3s596bmk said:

Smelly McUgly":3s596bmk said:

Give Harbaugh credit: He can develop offensive players with almost the same proficiency that Carroll develops defensive players.

Click to expand...

Who, like A.J. Jenkins? I'm not ready to proclaim Harbaugh a master at developing offensive players at all right now, personally. Where's the evidence?

Click to expand...

Kaepernick would be Exhibit A. Making Alex Smith an above-average QB would be Exhibit B. Turning the SF OL into one of the three best in the league would be Exhibit C.

You have a point about WRs though. Kyle Williams and AJ Jenkins are garbage (so far).

Click to expand...

We're giving credit to Harbour for the O-line now? Bunch of first rounders and a line coach and we're giving credit to harbaugh for this.

This is like giving credit to Pete Carroll for the work Tom Cable has done with Seattles line.

In that case, why give Carroll credit for anything? Hell, we have a DBs coach. We have a coach for the safeties. Let's give credit to secondary coaches instead of Carroll for developing Sherman, Chancellor, Browner, Lane, Thurmond, etc., etc. because our secondary is beastly.

If you don't think that Harbaugh doesn't have his input on the OL, I don't know what to tell you. I hate this overrated douchetool as much as you do, but he deserves credit for helping to develop that OL, which has former fat sacks of crap like Anthony Davis that have been nicely developed over the past two years. Lest we forget, that OL was not that great with Singletary. Harbaugh gets credit for developing it in my view.

Harbafreak did the right thing. He knew the Niners had talent and didn't opt for the total rebuild. I know SF fans feel differently, but prior to Kaeperstank, the only REAL changes Harbafreak made were QB efficiency.

That offensive line was so good, that the Niners became king of small ball. He knew that Smith wasn't a slinger, so he kept it simple and low risk/reward. He only increased passing if the Niners needed it. They killed teams by having a bunch of time consuming 12 play, 54 yard drives that usually ended in a FG. By doing so, the game couldn't get away from them. No matter what the Niners would only be a score down at worst.

No, he didn't build the team, but I can't fault him for being able to make what he had work. There is no question that their offense became more dynamic once Kaeperstank took over, but the price for that was obvious, teams scored more points at times because they had more chances. The trade off was still an overall improvement, so I have no issue with giving Harbafreak his props over Carroll.

That said, Carroll has done far more with less and is gaining strength/momentum as time passes. If the Hawks win a Super Bowl before SF does with Harbs, Carroll will be considered a far better coach because he did it with a team he built from scratch.

Oh gawd here we go again

Per Football Outsiders, the San Francisco O-line was ranked 13th in run and 30th in pass pro in 2010, 21st in run/25th in pass pro in 2011, and 1st in run/29th in pass pro in 2012. Just throwing that out there.

Smelly, I didn't say anything about QB development; you said offensive, which also includes linemen, RBs, WRs, and TEs; so that's what I was basically getting at.

I'm not a fan of FO's OL rankings for a couple reasons that will get off-topic, but suffice it to say that they underrate SF's line in pass pro badly through their metrics.

I think Harbaugh gets credit for developing QBs and the OL. Kendall Hunter is a good RB, but I'm neutral on development of RBs because the Niners just draft a bunch of really talented ones and throw them out there, kind of like us. The difference is that maybe coaching had an effect on Lynch here because he wasn't very good before he got here. Or maybe it's just that we finally gave him a decent run-blocking OL for the first time in his career in 2011.

Re: WRs and TEs, this is probably where I think you have your best counter to my argument. Williams and Jenkins aren't there - yet, as we need to give Williams this year to show up and Jenkins another two years of development. Delanie Walker was never as good as SF fans thought, so I'm not there on Harbs developing TEs either. However, he gets a NA grade as opposed to a letter grade; he hasn't had enough time to try and develop those players.

Are you saying they underrate SF's pass pro, specifically, or pass pro in general? Also, can you elaborate?

CARROLL > Harbaugh

RolandDeschain":8ia5gpq4 said:

Are you saying they underrate SF's pass pro, specifically, or pass pro in general? Also, can you elaborate?

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FO underrates SF's pass pro because they rank pass pro teams primarily based on adjusted sack rate and don't take into account hurries, knockdowns, pass completions or pass plays over 20+ yards (as those tend to indicate good pass pro that lets routes develop, though not always; a stat based on pass plays over 20+ yards adjusted for YAC would be good).