Biggest difference between Harbaugh and Carroll

[drdiags]

One coaches the team this site's fans pull for. The other coaches a team seen as a roadblock to said team reaching the ultimate goal. Maybe somehow there can be a cage match arranged or a pecker measuring contest to answer any other questions about this.

 

[rideaducati]

Smoke and mirrors if you ask me. Harbag goes to San Diego and wins in one of the weakest conferences in college. Pete goes to USC, where they hadn't won double digit games in a season for over a decade, and then wins double digit games for 7 straight years with two national championships. Harbag then goes to Stanford and wins with Andrew Luck. Pete wins more with Carson Palmer, Leinart, Booty, and Sanchez, but because those QBs weren't good in the NFL, Harbag gets more credit.

Pete goes back to the NFL with a team that had the talent to win 3 games and wins the division with 7 wins. Pete's team was bottom 5 in both offense and defense. Two years later Pete has the top scoring defense in the league with four players that were in Seattle before he arrived. Only two of those players will go into the 2013 season.

Harbag goes to the NFL with a team that had drafted in the top 11 spots for 9 straight years. Harbag gets credit for winning with a defense that was ranked #1 the year BEFORE HE GOT THERE. Harbag gets credit for turning the offense around when in all actuality, their offense was the same as prior seasons with the exception of Alex Smith's int's.

Throw Baalke in there too. He has been given credit for drafting well, but since McLoughan left, Baalke has drafted two starters his first year and in his second draft he had one player see the field. I think Harbag and Baalke will be exposed as frauds once they show what they do with their own players.

 

[RolandDeschain]

FO underrates SF's pass pro because they rank pass pro teams primarily based on adjusted sack rate and don't take into account hurries, knockdowns, pass completions or pass plays over 20+ yards (as those tend to indicate good pass pro that lets routes develop, though not always; a stat based on pass plays over 20+ yards adjusted for YAC would be good).

Interesting. I just looked up their details on ASR (adjusted sack rate) and the details are lacking. It includes phrases like "down and distance", but without knowing what they mean, it's impossible to guess at how accurate it is. Does "distance" mean distance until a 1st down, distance of passes, or what? I emailed them asking for elaboration, I'll be curious to see what they say. (I'm sure they'll answer, since I'm a paying subscriber of their site.)

 

[kearly]

I think Harbaugh is really good at recruiting and developing offensive linemen, and he's as good as it gets for being the QB's shepherd. On defense, he's done a great job identifying front seven talent. Not just in SF either- the front seven he built at Stanford might have been the nastiest in college football last year under Shaw.

He's definitely a top notch talent developer, but Carroll is on his own planet. Carroll as a talent developer is in Jimmy Johnson / Bill Walsh territory.

I think Harbaugh is the better coach during games, but I wouldn't trade Pete for Harbaugh straight up (though Harbaugh is quite a bit younger, so maybe I would). Anyway, back from shitting on my own point. Building the team is the most important thing a coach does, and few people in the history of the game can match what Pete has done in his first 3 seasons here.

 

[RolandDeschain]

We just need to follow that team-building up with being the first team in the NFL to win back-to-back-to-back Super Bowls. The only team to get a consecutive Lombardi hat trick. That would be awesome.

 

[Sports Hernia]

With the top coaches list coming out and Harbaugh being rated much higher then Carroll, I think they forgot to mention one big difference

Harbaugh did not really build the 49ers roster. Singletary had more to do with building the roster. Yes Harbaugh made some good improvements with Aldon Smith and Kaepernick but in all reality he inherited a very good team. 20 of his 22 starters were all ready in place when he arrived.

Now Carroll completely built his team. Very few remain from the previous regime. Red, Unger and Mebane come to mind but after that you really have to think about it. Yes JS gets some credit, but that hire was also Pete Carroll's decision

That's ok, he (Douchebaugh) will get the blame too when it crashes and burns starting this season! Rating of teams and coaches means nothing in reality.

 

[Smelly McUgly]

FO underrates SF's pass pro because they rank pass pro teams primarily based on adjusted sack rate and don't take into account hurries, knockdowns, pass completions or pass plays over 20+ yards (as those tend to indicate good pass pro that lets routes develop, though not always; a stat based on pass plays over 20+ yards adjusted for YAC would be good).

Interesting. I just looked up their details on ASR (adjusted sack rate) and the details are lacking. It includes phrases like "down and distance", but without knowing what they mean, it's impossible to guess at how accurate it is. Does "distance" mean distance until a 1st down, distance of passes, or what? I emailed them asking for elaboration, I'll be curious to see what they say. (I'm sure they'll answer, since I'm a paying subscriber of their site.)

Share what you find out, please. I would be interested to find out more about how they adjust sack rates - though I still believe that won't tell the whole story, and since that is how they determine rankings for pass pro, I am reluctant to really accept those rankings as very valid.

How do you find the value of being a paid subscriber to FO?

 

[RolandDeschain]

How do you find the value of being a paid subscriber to FO?

Well, I just signed up a couple of weeks ago. I don't really know yet, to be honest. The main reason I did it was I want to have access to their exclusive content on a week-to-week basis during the season, so we'll see. Pro Football Focus is a no-brainer because it's only $27, but FO is more expensive at about $45, and since I've only had it for a short time, I don't really have a feel for that aspect of it yet.

 

[pillowpounder]

You have a point about WRs though. Kyle Williams and AJ Jenkins are garbage (so far).

LOL you have to be kidding me, Kyle Williams? the 6th round draft pick??? Well if you want to make statements, where is Anthony McCoy, the Hawks 2010 6th round offensive draft pick?? Oh, is he on the team still... Guess that makes Pete a bad player developer.

I can understand blind homerism, but idiotic statements about other teams makes me wonder if some of you pay attention.

I respect both coaches and they are doing things to the beat of their own drums, but to make statements like "Harbaugh inherited a 10 win team" is rediculous. A few of you must suffer from short term memory. I've probably lost the interest of those few by now anyways. The Hawks won the division with 7 wins (ironically the same amount of wins didn't work the the following season), which leaves that "10 win" team someone mentioned earlier third place in the division with 6 wins.

Going back to what the OP said:

20 of his 22 starters were all ready in place when he arrived.

Let's dive into this shall we?

Give credit to Nolan and Singletary, they had the vision of a team that could impose their will upon others, but they were not good COACHES. Upon taking over (pre lockout), Harbaugh immediately built up Alex Smith's confidence, a guy that had been run out of town by let down Niner fans. He let the following starters walk: FB Moran Norris, C David Baas, G Chilo Rachal, DT Abrayo Franklin (pro bowler), LB Takeo Spikes,LB Manny Lawson, CB Nate Clements, K Joe Nedney. He drafted Aldon Smith, much to many fans' displeasure, Colin Kaepernick, Chris Culliver (another head scratcher in the 3rd round), Kendall Hunter, and Bruce Miller to play fullback (DE in college). He brought in the following free agents: Donte Whitner, Carlos Rogers, David Akers, Jonathan Goodwin (all revived their careers and made probowls while with the Niners). He also promoted the following players to starters: Navorro Bowman, Ray McDonald, Alex Boone, Ahmad Brooks, and Tarell Brown (Players that could start for most teams). Not a whole lot compared to Pete's 200+ transaction his first season in Seattle, but respectable nonetheless. This revamped team went to the NFC championship, also known as the game Pete Caroll has never been to.

Now to say Harbaugh inherited a 10 win team is comical. All the props to Carroll, the Seahawks are a Madden like team.

“I kind of think that Jim Harbaugh’s first year, by getting to the championship game was the best coaching job in the history of the NFL." -John Madden



Edited by radish for language attacking poster not post.

 

[RolandDeschain]

LOL you have to be kidding me, Kyle Williams? the 6th round draft pick??? Well if you want to make idiotic statements, where is Anthony McCoy, the Hawks 2010 6th round offensive draft pick?? Oh, not on the team still... Guess that makes Pete a bad player developer.

McCoy's still with the team, genius. He suffered a torn achilles heel in May and is out for the year. Not to mention, he has actually done some things in games for us.

Now to say Harbaugh inherited a 10 win team is comical.

Why? He barely brought in any new players. Most of the starting changes were removing starters and putting in guys that were previously backups or newly drafted. He DID inherit a 10-win team, basically. Don't misunderstand me, Harbaugh utilizes his talent VERY well, but look at how many people in your STARTING lineup from 2011 were with the team in 2010. Almost all of them. So, go bite your pillow some more, dear.

 

[Smelly McUgly]

Pillowpounder:

You made a terrible post there, mostly because Niners fans themselves are counting on Kyle Williams' development, and in fact have told me numerous times that Williams is going to break out in absence of Manningham and Crabtree. I think that makes him worth talking about.



Edited by radish for langage attacking poster not post.

 

[pillowpounder]

Bahahaha yes, Harbaugh did inherit a rather good, underperforming team, but as the OP stated only added two starters... He clearly has not drafted any starters, nor brought in free agents, thus leaving no impression from a personell point right?? Oh wait, the OP was completely wrong.

Smelly, due to injuries, Niner fans would enjoy Kyle Williams stepping up, but for a 6th rounder to even be a third receiver in the NFL would be considered a success statistically. KW showed promise before his injury last year, possibly why there is so much optimism in his ascension to becoming a contributor.

If you do not like opposing views, most homers don't, I will leave for now and let you get back to your Pete Carrol/Bill Walsh comparisons....lol

 

[Smelly McUgly]

If you do not like opposing views, most homers don't, I will leave for now and let you get back to your Pete Carrol/Bill Walsh comparisons....lol

It's not opposing views that bother me; it's views that cherry-pick one line that is founded on what Niners fans are ACTUALLY SAYING rather than some strawman to try and cast me as some irrational homer that I don't really see the value in.

EDITED BEFORE I GET IN TROUBLE

 

[jlwaters1]

In that case, why give Carroll credit for anything? Hell, we have a DBs coach. We have a coach for the safeties. Let's give credit to secondary coaches instead of Carroll for developing Sherman, Chancellor, Browner, Lane, Thurmond, etc., etc. because our secondary is beastly.

If you don't think that Harbaugh doesn't have his input on the OL, I don't know what to tell you. I hate this overrated douchetool as much as you do, but he deserves credit for helping to develop that OL, which has former fat sacks of crap like Anthony Davis that have been nicely developed over the past two years. Lest we forget, that OL was not that great with Singletary. Harbaugh gets credit for developing it in my view.

The entire OL was there before Harbs showed up. Iupati and Davis were 2nd year players under Harbaugh. It's ridiculous to say it's entirely Harbs that made them better players, when it's common knowledge that players have a tendency to make big leaps in skill and production from year 1 to year 2.

Coach Solari has done a nice job, no doubt about it. But to say Harbs can develop Offense talent the way Carroll can develop defensive talent is presumptuous. Here's the big difference All of SF's good offensive players are all 1-2nd round picks. Look at that OL. Joe Staley (1st rounder), Iupati & Davis (1st rounders). With 3 1st rounders on your OL, one would expect them to be a dominant group. Kaepernick was a 2nd rounder, Crabtree and Veron Davis were 1st round picks. The best "development" I've seen would be Starting FB Bruce Miller, who was a later round pick who moved over to FB after playing defense in collge.

Now lOok at Seattle's defense- Most of which are later round picks or unwanted goods - Sherman, Chancellor, Browner, KJ Wright, Macolm Smith, Red Bryant, Chris Clemmons, Alan Branch. That's a ton of 3-7 round picks, and a number of guys pulled of the scrap heap and turned into productive players (Red, Clemmons, Branch, Browner). Show me the significant number of these type of players that Harbaugh has made into solid players? I'm not seeing them.

 

[Snakeeyes007]

Pretty simple, really.

Pete Carroll



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Every time I see this gif I think, "Yo Adrian!", and "Cut me, Mick." PC looks very Rocky with that swagger and crooked smile. I can hear 'Gonna Fly Now' starting in the background of this gif, followed by a montage of Chancellor knocking out Davis, Beast running over, well, a lot of folks, heck, even Largent knocking out Harden! :box:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-KO-XW8M2A

Anyone else see what I'm seeing there?

 

[Smelly McUgly]

jlwaters1 - If we are going to use draft positions here as some sort of proof that players should already be developed, I'll have to disagree with you. The draft is not a perfect assessment of talent levels. Scouts miss all the time.

Richard Sherman was, in fact, first-round talent that likely slipped to the fifth round. The market will correct that when he hits free agency. Are you saying that Sherm is all coaching and scheme? I would highly disagree with that; he was really good in the first place based on raw talent (though of course, coaching and scheme have maximized his potential and I think Carroll deserves credit for how he has developed that talent into a top two or three CB in the league).

Clemons was a great player for the 9-tech position; it's just that the Eagles never played him there. Give credit to Carroll for recognizing a good scheme fit, but how much is that Clemons, for teams that use a 9-tech like we do, is just really high-value and naturally talented? Browner pre-big-corner revolution was a CFL talent; now, he will make pretty good money on the FA market. Again, market correction, though give Carroll credit for starting this revolution in the NFL and finding and developing that talent.

In other words, you favor coaching over talent to an unfair degree in my eyes when it comes to Seahawks that have developed into good players under Carroll.

On the other hand, it's not as if every first- or second-rounder is properly valued or can become a big star without proper coaching. Who is to say how much those O-Linemen develop under another head coach? Mentioning Solari as though he is the real focal point of the development without mentioning the DL and secondary coaches that helped develop our guys comes off as disingenuous. Mentioning Kaepernick as if he was some conventionally "ready" second-rounder instead of the extremely raw prospect that he was is just WAY off.

In other words, as soon as we talk about 49ers that have developed into good players under Harbaugh's (full or partial) watch, suddenly you favor their natural talent over coaching.

Which is it? Of course, we cannot really tell with each player, but I will consistently give credit to coaching for molding, at least to some degree, all but freak, other-worldly talent (Barry Sanders is so great that he ALWAYS would have been Barry Sanders; Bo Jackson is so great that he ALWAYS would have been Bo Jackson).

You, on the other hand, seem to be changing whether you believe in talent or coaching (and which coaches deserve the credit) based on the team that you are talking about, with all due respect to your views.

 

[Giedi]

Bahahaha yes, Harbaugh did inherit a rather good, underperforming team, but as the OP stated only added two starters... He clearly has not drafted any starters, nor brought in free agents, thus leaving no impression from a personell point right?? Oh wait, the OP was completely wrong.

Smelly, due to injuries, Niner fans would enjoy Kyle Williams stepping up, but for a 6th rounder to even be a third receiver in the NFL would be considered a success statistically. KW showed promise before his injury last year, possibly why there is so much optimism in his ascension to becoming a contributor.

If you do not like opposing views, most homers don't, I will leave for now and let you get back to your Pete Carrol/Bill Walsh comparisons....lol

I shake my head at this. But hey, its your boards, so I have to respect those opinions.

What I will say about Pete is that he's very conservative. Somebody like Jeff Fisher takes more chances. He's not a disciplinarian like a Caughlin. I don't think he could take over the offense like a Bill Bellicheck if his OC died of a heart attack. Other than that, he's a good coach.

 

[The Radish]

About this comment,,,,,


If you do not like opposing views, most homers don't, I will leave for now and let you get back to your Pete Carrol/Bill Walsh comparisons....lol


Of course we're homers, this is our home, Seahawks are our team.

I'm beginning to think they aren't yours You mentioned to one of our moderators that you were just trying to have a little fun. Does having fun mean finding fault with a teams fanbase at their largest website & arguing with everything they post?


:141847_bnono:

 

[Sac]

What I will say about Pete is that he's very conservative.

Apparently you haven't heard of "Big Balls Pete" and how he can go hormonal at times.

 

[Lords of Scythia]

I'm not a fan of FO's OL rankings for a couple reasons that will get off-topic, but suffice it to say that they underrate SF's line in pass pro badly through their metrics.

I think Harbaugh gets credit for developing QBs and the OL. Kendall Hunter is a good RB, but I'm neutral on development of RBs because the Niners just draft a bunch of really talented ones and throw them out there, kind of like us. The difference is that maybe coaching had an effect on Lynch here because he wasn't very good before he got here. Or maybe it's just that we finally gave him a decent run-blocking OL for the first time in his career in 2011.

Re: WRs and TEs, this is probably where I think you have your best counter to my argument. Williams and Jenkins aren't there - yet, as we need to give Williams this year to show up and Jenkins another two years of development. Delanie Walker was never as good as SF fans thought, so I'm not there on Harbs developing TEs either. However, he gets a NA grade as opposed to a letter grade; he hasn't had enough time to try and develop those players.

Cable deserves a lot of credit in that regard for coaching the oline up on zone-blocking and also coaching Lynch on how the hit the holes.