Wilson 14th in Benoit's list of best QBs

[Spin Doctor]

I agree. So many Wilson homers on this forum that need to open their eye's. Wilson has been nothing short of terrible since late 2015. Benoit's assessment is spot on with Wilson's lack of height causing him to struggle because of limited vision on surveying the field. I was just saying this in a post earlier in another thread.

LOL.

The 2015 team: Okung, Britt, Nowak/Lewis, Sweezy, Gilliam
Once they made the switch to Lewis this team could run-block and at least keep Wilson from death. There are some solid if unspectacular starters on this line. Britt/Sweezy weren't great shakes in pass pro but could both run-block. At the time, Gilliam wasn't a dumpster fire.

2016: Fant, Glowinski, Britt, Ifedi, Gilliam
Fant was the worst starting LT in the league, Ifedi was trash, Gilliam was so bad he eventually lost his job. Britt was the only player anyone would claim as solid. Utter futility running the ball.

2017: Odhiambo, Joeckel, Britt, Glowinski/Aboushi, Ifedi
Once again we have the worst starting LT in the league. Britt is solid, Joeckel is...starting caliber I'll say, Aboushi may be also but he's a recent addition. Ifedi improving after Aboushi's insertion but was trash as well early on. Utter futility running the ball.

Huh I wonder why Russell's performance has dropped off since 2015.

You're right bro its the O-Line. Wilson is fantastic.

I wouldn't call him "fantastic", he is simply a good QB, nothing more nothing less. He has always been very inconsistent. When he is on, he is unstoppable, however when he is off he looks like a replacement tier QB. There are stretches of games where he will dominate even with a poor O-Line then the next five games he will miss open receivers, over throw the ball, and hold onto the football for far too long. I will say that I do believe Carroll's philosophy, and Bevell's offense has held back his progression as a QB.

The progression part is important here, Russell is severely lacking in a few areas. The first area is in the pocket. He doesn't know how to set up his blockers. If you watch Brady, he makes subtle little moves to evade rushers, and he leads the defenders to his blockers. Just this tidbit alone would make Wilson's line seem much better than they are now. He also hears footsteps when they are not there. I've seen him spin around in the pocket, like a dog chasing his own tail with no pressure on him. He ended up walking right into a defensive ends arms. This caused him to miss wide open receivers. I don't think height is the main issue with him missing receivers here, I think how he moves in the pocket is. His initial response is to pressure is to turn his back to receivers. I've seen a lot of missed opportunities left on the field for Wilson. This kind of play also encourages bad mechanics. I see too many throws off the back foot, or with no follow through, sometimes in the air. This is why you see Wilson missing easy throws. I also believe that this style of play is encouraged by Bevell and Carroll. We run a lot of long developing routes, and deep passes. Our offense relies on the haymaker, knockout punch. It lacks structure in this regard. We are treating Wilson like he is a rookie still.

What we did in 2015 that was so effective is we ran a more traditional WCO type of approach. We moved the ball down the field in a methodical manor. The passing game almost functioned as an extension as a running game. We still got big plays off, but we also didn't rely on them as much. We varied the tempo, and allowed Wilson to get into a rhythm. at this point Wilson was actually throwing to a spot, and trusting his receivers. In this period he showed immense growth, but sadly, we went away with what was working with our young Quarterback. Carroll and Bevell need to take the training wheels off of Wilson. They are wasting his prime years.

 

[twisted_steel2]

I agree. So many Wilson homers on this forum that need to open their eye's. Wilson has been nothing short of terrible since late 2015. Benoit's assessment is spot on with Wilson's lack of height causing him to struggle because of limited vision on surveying the field. I was just saying this in a post earlier in another thread.

LOL.

The 2015 team: Okung, Britt, Nowak/Lewis, Sweezy, Gilliam
Once they made the switch to Lewis this team could run-block and at least keep Wilson from death. There are some solid if unspectacular starters on this line. Britt/Sweezy weren't great shakes in pass pro but could both run-block. At the time, Gilliam wasn't a dumpster fire.

2016: Fant, Glowinski, Britt, Ifedi, Gilliam
Fant was the worst starting LT in the league, Ifedi was trash, Gilliam was so bad he eventually lost his job. Britt was the only player anyone would claim as solid. Utter futility running the ball.

2017: Odhiambo, Joeckel, Britt, Glowinski/Aboushi, Ifedi
Once again we have the worst starting LT in the league. Britt is solid, Joeckel is...starting caliber I'll say, Aboushi may be also but he's a recent addition. Ifedi improving after Aboushi's insertion but was trash as well early on. Utter futility running the ball.

Huh I wonder why Russell's performance has dropped off since 2015.

You're right bro its the O-Line. Wilson is fantastic.

I wouldn't call him "fantastic", he is simply a good QB, nothing more nothing less. He has always been very inconsistent. When he is on, he is unstoppable, however when he is off he looks like a replacement tier QB. There are stretches of games where he will dominate even with a poor O-Line then the next five games he will miss open receivers, over throw the ball, and hold onto the football for far too long. I will say that I do believe Carroll's philosophy, and Bevell's offense has held back his progression as a QB.

The progression part is important here, Russell is severely lacking in a few areas. The first area is in the pocket. He doesn't know how to set up his blockers. If you watch Brady, he makes subtle little moves to evade rushers, and he leads the defenders to his blockers. Just this tidbit alone would make Wilson's line seem much better than they are now. He also hears footsteps when they are not there. I've seen him spin around in the pocket, like a dog chasing his own tail with no pressure on him. He ended up walking right into a defensive ends arms. This caused him to miss wide open receivers. I don't think height is the main issue with him missing receivers here, I think how he moves in the pocket is. His initial response is to pressure is to turn his back to receivers. I've seen a lot of missed opportunities left on the field for Wilson. This kind of play also encourages bad mechanics. I see too many throws off the back foot, or with no follow through, sometimes in the air. This is why you see Wilson missing easy throws. I also believe that this style of play is encouraged by Bevell and Carroll. We run a lot of long developing routes, and deep passes. Our offense relies on the haymaker, knockout punch. It lacks structure in this regard. We are treating Wilson like he is a rookie still.

What we did in 2015 that was so effective is we ran a more traditional WCO type of approach. We moved the ball down the field in a methodical manor. The passing game almost functioned as an extension as a running game. We still got big plays off, but we also didn't rely on them as much. We varied the tempo, and allowed Wilson to get into a rhythm. at this point Wilson was actually throwing to a spot, and trusting his receivers. In this period he showed immense growth, but sadly, we went away with what was working with our young Quarterback. Carroll and Bevell need to take the training wheels off of Wilson. They are wasting his prime years.

Some good stuff in here.

The not climbing the pocket drives me insane some times. I think a combination of Carroll and Bev encouraging him to make sandlot types plays and throws, in combination of a porous o-line has really stunted this aspect of his game.

But we've seen times in his career where his #'s within the pocket are crazy good. unno:

 

[Jimjones0384]

What, 14th, are you kidding me? He is the fifth highest rated qb, according to PFF.

https://twitter.com/PFF/status/919303554396979200

 

[chris98251]

Hard to climb a pocket when it is collapsing on you, as soon as an edge breaks down and he needs to run Wilsons vision is cut down to 1/2 or maybe 1/3 of the field, he is going to miss back side guys open a lot more. Repetition of these break downs and not trusting his pocket is going to create bad habits. happy feet, lack of plant and throw, mechanics all around are going to start degrading.

It all snowballs, no running game also means teams are going to dare him to beat multiple blitz's so more pressure yet.

So yes he may look worse due to other circumstances, the key is when he has a line, a running game and can trust his blockers he shines, so it is we know what he can do with the tools around him, we need to finish filling the tool box.

 

[Seymour]

Hard to climb a pocket when it is collapsing on you, as soon as an edge breaks down and he needs to run Wilsons vision is cut down to 1/2 or maybe 1/3 of the field, he is going to miss back side guys open a lot more. Repetition of these break downs and not trusting his pocket is going to create bad habits. happy feet, lack of plant and throw, mechanics all around are going to start degrading.

It all snowballs, no running game also means teams are going to dare him to beat multiple blitz's so more pressure yet.

So yes he may look worse due to other circumstances, the key is when he has a line, a running game and can trust his blockers he shines, so it is we know what he can do with the tools around him, we need to finish filling the tool box.

Excellent post.

You have more patients explaining the situation than I do. Not that the nay sayers will listen or anything. Their minds are made up, so I tend to abbreviate.

 

[ludakrishna]

About right based on his performance. You can't be top 10 when it takes you 1 full half to get into a rhythm so that you're not sailing the ball over the head of your receivers.

 

[Scorpion05]

He is the only Qb completing over 60% of his passes when pressured, and he's pressured a lot. What's sickening is once he gets protection, the narrative will be "Russell has finally learned how to pass accurately as a pocket QB." It is frustrating to try to discuss fairness with people so I've mostly given up on arguing

 

[Scorpion05]

What, 14th, are you kidding me? He is the fifth highest rated qb, according to PFF.

https://twitter.com/PFF/status/919303554396979200

Correction, he is the 4th highest rated, behind Drew Brees who is 3rd

 

[scutterhawk]

I consider Andy Benoit and Greg Cosell two guys who really know about football.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/10/18/nfl-q ... b-rankings

I personally can't complain about this: you could make the case that today he's better than Rivers, Winston, Manning ... but some of the ones who are behind him in the list could arguably be ahead of him: Mariota, Watson, Prescott ...
I think that he's become an average NFL QB (I give him a C so far in 2017). Maybe the putrid OL has made him regress or maybe ... he's just not that good, but anyway it's difficult to argue that he's now a top-10 QB ...

Shitty Run Game, and a shoddy Pass Protection....We are only 5 game into this season and everything seems to be on the upswing
At this juncture, this seems like business as usual for the whole Seahawks Offense over the last 3 Years.
Wilson is in single facet mode right now, he has NO RB to help in keeping the Defenses honest...The O-Line has shown some improvement but they still have a looonng ways to go.

 

[scutterhawk]

You're right bro its the O-Line. Wilson is fantastic.

Is everything all or nothing with you?

Have you even considered that the oline is HEAVILY contributing to Wilsons flaws and fixing 1 fixes the other?

If you got hit by a car not looking while crossing the road, would you continue not looking when doing that again? Wilson looking at linemen converging on him means he's not looking (finding) receivers. Think man.

LOL, I can give another example that might help that sink in.
In High School, we had a Coach with a somewhat twisted sense of humor, he would have us playing basketball while wearing boxing gloves....Try making baskets and all the while, you're trying to duck punches. :lol:

 

[jammerhawk]

What, 14th, are you kidding me? He is the fifth highest rated qb, according to PFF.

https://twitter.com/PFF/status/919303554396979200

Correction, he is the 4th highest rated, behind Drew Brees who is 3rd

That above ranking seems more in line with what Wilson has delivered despite playing behind a simply awful OLine, w/o much of a run game to take some of the pressure away from him.

 

[adeltaY]

I wouldn't call him "fantastic", he is simply a good QB, nothing more nothing less. He has always been very inconsistent. When he is on, he is unstoppable, however when he is off he looks like a replacement tier QB. There are stretches of games where he will dominate even with a poor O-Line then the next five games he will miss open receivers, over throw the ball, and hold onto the football for far too long. I will say that I do believe Carroll's philosophy, and Bevell's offense has held back his progression as a QB.

The progression part is important here, Russell is severely lacking in a few areas. The first area is in the pocket. He doesn't know how to set up his blockers. If you watch Brady, he makes subtle little moves to evade rushers, and he leads the defenders to his blockers. Just this tidbit alone would make Wilson's line seem much better than they are now. He also hears footsteps when they are not there. I've seen him spin around in the pocket, like a dog chasing his own tail with no pressure on him. He ended up walking right into a defensive ends arms. This caused him to miss wide open receivers. I don't think height is the main issue with him missing receivers here, I think how he moves in the pocket is. His initial response is to pressure is to turn his back to receivers. I've seen a lot of missed opportunities left on the field for Wilson. This kind of play also encourages bad mechanics. I see too many throws off the back foot, or with no follow through, sometimes in the air. This is why you see Wilson missing easy throws. I also believe that this style of play is encouraged by Bevell and Carroll. We run a lot of long developing routes, and deep passes. Our offense relies on the haymaker, knockout punch. It lacks structure in this regard. We are treating Wilson like he is a rookie still.

What we did in 2015 that was so effective is we ran a more traditional WCO type of approach. We moved the ball down the field in a methodical manor. The passing game almost functioned as an extension as a running game. We still got big plays off, but we also didn't rely on them as much. We varied the tempo, and allowed Wilson to get into a rhythm. at this point Wilson was actually throwing to a spot, and trusting his receivers. In this period he showed immense growth, but sadly, we went away with what was working with our young Quarterback. Carroll and Bevell need to take the training wheels off of Wilson. They are wasting his prime years.

Man, this is such a great point. I was listening to one of the Hawkblogger podcasts recently and they pretty much agreed Russ is performing at a C- to C+ level this season, but Hawkblogger said he thinks the coaching staff should get an F for Wilson's development or lack thereof. Apparently the QB coach is some really old dude who's been around for ages but hasn't developed a QB of note according to HB. Maybe the coaching staff needs to bring in a new QB coach or Wilson needs to get together with a different QB coach during the offseason.

I really think he can develop his pocket awareness more. He's always been smart and hardworking, it's just hard to tell whether this is an inherent flaw or coaching. If it's the latter, we need to fix that ASAP. He doesn't need to be Brady, but he can be a hell of a lot better than he is. Agree also with the constantly collapsing pockets hurting his development too. The situation isn't great...

 

[Ozzy]

I wouldn't call him "fantastic", he is simply a good QB, nothing more nothing less. He has always been very inconsistent. When he is on, he is unstoppable, however when he is off he looks like a replacement tier QB. There are stretches of games where he will dominate even with a poor O-Line then the next five games he will miss open receivers, over throw the ball, and hold onto the football for far too long. I will say that I do believe Carroll's philosophy, and Bevell's offense has held back his progression as a QB.

The progression part is important here, Russell is severely lacking in a few areas. The first area is in the pocket. He doesn't know how to set up his blockers. If you watch Brady, he makes subtle little moves to evade rushers, and he leads the defenders to his blockers. Just this tidbit alone would make Wilson's line seem much better than they are now. He also hears footsteps when they are not there. I've seen him spin around in the pocket, like a dog chasing his own tail with no pressure on him. He ended up walking right into a defensive ends arms. This caused him to miss wide open receivers. I don't think height is the main issue with him missing receivers here, I think how he moves in the pocket is. His initial response is to pressure is to turn his back to receivers. I've seen a lot of missed opportunities left on the field for Wilson. This kind of play also encourages bad mechanics. I see too many throws off the back foot, or with no follow through, sometimes in the air. This is why you see Wilson missing easy throws. I also believe that this style of play is encouraged by Bevell and Carroll. We run a lot of long developing routes, and deep passes. Our offense relies on the haymaker, knockout punch. It lacks structure in this regard. We are treating Wilson like he is a rookie still.

What we did in 2015 that was so effective is we ran a more traditional WCO type of approach. We moved the ball down the field in a methodical manor. The passing game almost functioned as an extension as a running game. We still got big plays off, but we also didn't rely on them as much. We varied the tempo, and allowed Wilson to get into a rhythm. at this point Wilson was actually throwing to a spot, and trusting his receivers. In this period he showed immense growth, but sadly, we went away with what was working with our young Quarterback. Carroll and Bevell need to take the training wheels off of Wilson. They are wasting his prime years.

Man, this is such a great point. I was listening to one of the Hawkblogger podcasts recently and they pretty much agreed Russ is performing at a C- to C+ level this season, but Hawkblogger said he thinks the coaching staff should get an F for Wilson's development or lack thereof. Apparently the QB coach is some really old dude who's been around for ages but hasn't developed a QB of note according to HB. Maybe the coaching staff needs to bring in a new QB coach or Wilson needs to get together with a different QB coach during the offseason.

I really think he can develop his pocket awareness more. He's always been smart and hardworking, it's just hard to tell whether this is an inherent flaw or coaching. If it's the latter, we need to fix that ASAP. He doesn't need to be Brady, but he can be a hell of a lot better than he is. Agree also with the constantly collapsing pockets hurting his development too. The situation isn't great...

I have Wilson 5th and at the lowest he'd 7-8th. Benoits list is getting killed in social media as it should. The player most people disagree with? Wilson. It's strange to me that this fan base continues to sell him short. This team would be a mess without him. He can, has and needs to play better but to have him that low or to call him terrible like some in this thread have is laughable.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[Scorpion05]

What, 14th, are you kidding me? He is the fifth highest rated qb, according to PFF.

https://twitter.com/PFF/status/919303554396979200

Correction, he is the 4th highest rated, behind Drew Brees who is 3rd

That above ranking seems more in line with what Wilson has delivered despite playing behind a simply awful OLine, w/o much of a run game to take some of the pressure away from him.

Yep

Wilson is quickly becoming one of the most unfairly critiqued Qbs I've ever seen. I've never seen someone so nitpicked at for missed throws, "pocket awareness," etc. when virtually every metric shows he's doing a hell of a lot with chicken s***. No running game, no bonafide receiving threat(at least not being utilized properly ie: Jimmy Graham), and statistically among the worst O-lines in recent history. Second to First most pressured Qb since he's been in the league, and Rees Odhiambo is ranked DEAD last.

It's just getting irritating, especially in the media, to see them praise Derek Carr and Andrew Luck even when they struggle. When they struggle it's because of their supporting cast. When Russell does, it's because he's not reading defenses, not making quick decisions, and inaccurate. Thank god for Advanced stats :irishdrinkers:


Edit: Not to mention, many were crapping on Carson Wentz last year but that was largely blamed on him missing his LT for those games, why can't we apply that same logic here? Russell doesn't have an LT, RT, or guards

 

[Seafan]

What, 14th, are you kidding me? He is the fifth highest rated qb, according to PFF.

https://twitter.com/PFF/status/919303554396979200

Correction, he is the 4th highest rated, behind Drew Brees who is 3rd

That above ranking seems more in line with what Wilson has delivered despite playing behind a simply awful OLine, w/o much of a run game to take some of the pressure away from him.

Yep

Wilson is quickly becoming one of the most unfairly critiqued Qbs I've ever seen. I've never seen someone so nitpicked at for missed throws, "pocket awareness," etc. when virtually every metric shows he's doing a hell of a lot with chicken s***. No running game, no bonafide receiving threat(at least not being utilized properly ie: Jimmy Graham), and statistically among the worst O-lines in recent history. Second to First most pressured Qb since he's been in the league, and Rees Odhiambo is ranked DEAD last.

It's just getting irritating, especially in the media, to see them praise Derek Carr and Andrew Luck even when they struggle. When they struggle it's because of their supporting cast. When Russell does, it's because he's not reading defenses, not making quick decisions, and inaccurate. Thank god for Advanced stats :irishdrinkers:


Edit: Not to mention, many were crapping on Carson Wentz last year but that was largely blamed on him missing his LT for those games, why can't we apply that same logic here? Russell doesn't have an LT, RT, or guards

With RW he is what he is and if he is as good as you think the team would be 5-0. He has limitations and he's not getting any faster. He struggles in the red zone. He's inconsistent on what should be easy completions. He doesn't throw WRs open and generally won't throw to receivers unless they are wide open. Rated 14th is fair. He was much better as a passer at the end of 2015. Don't know what happened to him but he looks like he's lost some confidence. 34 TD passes seems like a dream. I hope I'm wrong. I hope he shakes off whatever it is and returns to his 2015 form.

 

[AgentDib]

RW is tough to evaluate because he's streaky. Inconsistency is usually considered to be a problem, but in RW's case he's often inconsistent between being mediocre and absolutely brilliant. When you average it together he's still been very good, and his career Y/A is neck and neck with Aaron Rodgers at 7.9. Every QB with that Y/A or higher is in the Hall of Fame.

He has had a little more bad than usual this season but it's only been five games. His three underwhelming performances have been the two division rival games and then the opener @GB where our entire offense looked flat.

Unless you think there's some benefit to running around prematurely with pitchforks you should really watch the next five games before you get too bent out of shape. @Giants, Texans, Redskins, @Cardinals, Falcons gives us three defenses we should be able to get things going against followed by two top tier defenses that will give us a measuring stick for the last stretch of the season.

 

[NFSeahawks]

I think it's difficult to argue that his production has been top-10 this year, but he's still firmly a top-10 QB in the league IMO. There's no way I would take any QB in the league that's come in after RW (Mariota, Winston, Prescott, Watson, etc.). It might be my homer-glasses, but we've seen what RW can do with proper line play and play calling - and it's damn impressive.

I seriously don't think there's another QB out there not named Rodgers that would be able to both survive and lead our team to 10+ wins a season behind the embarrassment that has been our offensive line for three seasons now.

Everyone calm down and listen to JG.

While I'll agree last year and so far this year his performance hasn't been as good as his first handful of years, to say that he's been terrible since 2015 is a bit of a stretch. Even Russell Wilson's poor play is generally better than the average QB. We can choose to be picky because he's shown he can be elite and so there are high expectations just like with the team.

I'm also not convinced he won't in fact break out of this and go on a tear either.

Hate to say it again but until offensive playcalling changes and the line is truly paid for and solidified, we may not see a truly consistant elite Russell.

Oh btw he's better than everyone drafted after him, he has a super bowl ring, went to two sb's, he just won't call out Bevel for being a ... thats his only downfall.

 

[Siouxhawk]

So some dude makes up a list of who he thinks the best quarterbacks in the league are? Who cares? It's a subjective list. It doesn't mean squat. The only thing that matters is how Russell fits into and powers our offense. It's by and large pretty good. Russell will advance in the playoffs farther than most on this list and that's all that matters.

 

[Joyodongo]

So some dude makes up a list of who he thinks the best quarterbacks in the league are? Who cares? It's a subjective list. It doesn't mean squat. The only thing that matters is how Russell fits into and powers our offense. It's by and large pretty good. Russell will advance in the playoffs farther than most on this list and that's all that matters.

I'm not worried about RW because of the list, I'm worried because of what I see, and what I see is an average QB, so I happen to agree with his position in the list.
"Where would we be without RW ???!!!" Of course we need a QB, that question could be applied to all NFL teams. Maybe, I say maybe, we'd be better now with someone like Dak, or Wentz ...
"He's the best player in our offense !!!" The point is that QB is the most important position in this game but I honestly think Doug is a better player than RW.

 

[12HawkFan]

If you put Russel Wilson behind a top grade NFL O-Line, he would easily become one of the best ever, he is honestly not that far from that status already.

I just pray they don't ruin him before they figure out when you have a true once in long time top end NFL QB, you better thank your lucky stars and do whatever you have to do to keep them healthy for as long as you can as he won't be a 25 year old physical specimen forever.

GO HAWKS!!!