Will Pete Carroll pull off the trade for Sam Darnold

[DarkVictory23]

I doubt that a lot of QB's could get the same results as Wilson on the Seahawks. He had 3 4th quarter comebacks and 4 game winning drives in 2013. Despite not having to pass as much as other QB's, when he did pass the way Carroll's offense was ran demanded efficiency. Wilson's presence helped many different aspects of the Seahawks.

Wilson's Fourth Quarter comebacks are great, but again, Russ was SPOTTED the best defense in the entire NFL and the benefit of facing D's that were scheming for a completely different player.


Here's the thing: All the things you say Russ brought, high efficiency in very limited pass attempts, is what you ask of an elite game manager. Elite still, yes, but still a game manager.

In 2013, in moments in a game when the 'Hawks were FORCED to put the game on Russ's arm, he wasn't exceptional or elite. In 3rd downs in obvious passing situations (4 or more yards to go), when the defense was actually KEYED on the passing game, Russ's passer rating dropped to 83.1 for the mid range (3rd and 4-6 yards) and 61.1 for longer (7-9 yards).

Compare this to guys like Manning (109.5 and 79.6), Brees (131.8 and 72.7), or Rivers (104.2 / 94.3) you can see how far the gap is from 'top 5' QBs to Russ. Heck, even Nick Foles (94.2 / 67.8) in his non-Super Bowl year was a better guy when you NEEDED him to beat the other team with his arm.


Russ was not that guy that year. He was the guy who we counted on to not screw up, to take advantage of defenses that didn't want to be posterized by Marshawn Lynch, and use his legs in RPO plays to catch Ds by surprise. None of that is 'bad', but that's a completely different thing than what people think of when they are talking about $50 million a season franchise QBs. And that is a completely different style of play than what the Seahawks had gotten from Russ pretty much since then, anyway.

 

[BlueTalon]

No on Darnold. However, the Panthers were talking with the Vikings about a possible trade for Cousins. I wouldn't mind that option for the Seahawks. The team would be drastically improved if they could pull something like that off. Cousins in Seahawk offense could be like what Stafford added to the Rams offense. Maybe a 2nd round pick in next year's draft and mid round draft pick (4th or 5th round) plus a player. Looks like the Vikings are high on Mond again who they drafted in 2021 as 3rd round pick. https://thevikingage.com/2022/05/21/minnesota-vikings-kellen-mond-praise/.

Are you comparing Cousins with Stafford in any way? I'm voting no on that idea for four reasons.
1. Kirk Cousins.
2. Don't want to give up anything -- no draft picks, no players.
3. Don't want to take on whatever is in Cousins' contract.
4. Kirk Cousins.

 

[IndyHawk]

Pete trying to win the award for "Shittiest QB Room in the NFL" I think he has that well in hand now. Good job Pete! You are such a GREAT coach we don't need a stinking QB Super Bowl here we come! Onward to 8 years of postseason failure. Whooop Whoooop!

So the elite QB of $50 million per failed to do it for 7 of those?
No wonder why we aren't jumping for every crumb out there.

 

[JayhawkMike]

Oh I agree. Overpaid. Flawed in a lot of way. Perhaps even fatally.

The point is that PC is CHOOSING to go into this season with these two QBs. He had every chance to draft, sign or trade for a better quarterback. He didn’t. So any excuses for PC or from PC this year about any failings at that position should ring completely hollow. Even though we are hearing them already.

 

[Rainger]

Oh I agree. Overpaid. Flawed in a lot of way. Perhaps even fatally.

The point is that PC is CHOOSING to go into this season with these two QBs. He had every chance to draft, sign or trade for a better quarterback. He didn’t. So any excuses for PC or from PC this year about any failings at that position should ring completely hollow. Even though we are hearing them already.

More fake news! Where are we already hearing any excuses from Pete about his QB's?????

 

[BlueTalon]

The point is that PC is CHOOSING to go into this season with these two QBs. He had every chance to draft, sign or trade for a better quarterback. He didn’t. So any excuses for PC or from PC this year about any failings at that position should ring completely hollow. Even though we are hearing them already.

Just out of curiosity, who would you have drafted if given the chance? And which of the players we drafted would you have passed on in order to draft that QB?

 

[JayhawkMike]

not sure I would have drafted one. But I didn’t just say “drafted”. I said signed, drafted or traded for. I would have grabbed Baker but there were plenty of experienced QBs that also could have been signed that were better than the two we have.

 

[JayhawkMike]

More fake news! Where are we already hearing any excuses from Pete about his QB's?????

We have people making excuses FOR PC already scattered on this board. “From” PC obviously won’t come until the season starts. please read the post again.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Only trade I could talk myself into is Minshew.

Jordan Love maybe, if really cheap (as in, so cheap that Green Bay would say no immediately)

 

[Rainger]

We have people making excuses FOR PC already scattered on this board. “From” PC obviously won’t come until the season starts. please read the post again.

You re read it. If you say we are already hearing it from people on .net fine. But that is not what you said. You referred to both and then said it is already happening without qualifying.

 

[DarkVictory23]

Oh I agree. Overpaid. Flawed in a lot of way. Perhaps even fatally.

The point is that PC is CHOOSING to go into this season with these two QBs. He had every chance to draft, sign or trade for a better quarterback. He didn’t. So any excuses for PC or from PC this year about any failings at that position should ring completely hollow. Even though we are hearing them already.

But, what excuses are even needed? Why are we wanting the Seahawks to bring on a fourth mid-tier level QB if we expect them to draft a top talent next year?

The thought process here is simple: Either, A) Pete has seen something and/or knows something we don't regarding Smith or Lock and we are all happily surprised next season or B) Pete doesn't see the purpose in bringing in a third stop-gap option for no reason when he's planning to draft a QB next off-season.


What is the point of bringing in Mayfield or Darnold for a year? If this team is as far-gone next year as some predict, all having a marginally better QB does is hurt our draft prospects.

So, if Pete Carroll really does believe in Smith and/or Lock, it makes no sense for him to bring in someone else.
If Pete Carroll doesn't really believe in Smith and/or Lock, it still makes no sense for him to bring in someone else.

 

[Scout]

The talk of a game manager is interesting. Because Brady for most of his career was a game manager. But over time Brady was capable of improving enough to be able to take over a game. R. Wilson used to be able to take over a game or carry a team to a win but that time is over for him IMO. No one doubts that R. Wilson can return to being a game manager with the football but he has become too undisciplined lately for my liking. This is because Wilson is looking for the homerun more so than ever and isn't using his legs like he used to. Wilson has something left in the tank to help the Broncos win football games but I am not sure if he can take over games. If Wilson can outduel Mahomes, Allen, etc and other young AFC QBs in the conference I would be impressed.

Speaking of Cousins he hasn't show the ability to take over a game for a long time now. While Stafford has shown that he is capable of helping his team win in the clutch. It is like comparing apples to oranges really.

I do not think Pete is in denial about what he has in Geno or Lock. He wants them to compete and to be game managers on offense given the sheer overwhelming talent at the skill positions. Now if Geno or Lock can show they can take over a game and help the team win a few games with their own personal heroics here and there that would be a bonus. But I do not expect this based on what we have seen from Geno or Lock so far as they both lack experience.

 

[Chawker]

Only trade I could talk myself into is Minshew.

Jordan Love maybe, if really cheap (as in, so cheap that Green Bay would say no immediately)

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with you.

 

[Tusc2000]

No on Darnold. However, the Panthers were talking with the Vikings about a possible trade for Cousins. I wouldn't mind that option for the Seahawks. The team would be drastically improved if they could pull something like that off. Cousins in Seahawk offense could be like what Stafford added to the Rams offense. Maybe a 2nd round pick in next year's draft and mid round draft pick (4th or 5th round) plus a player. Looks like the Vikings are high on Mond again who they drafted in 2021 as 3rd round pick. https://thevikingage.com/2022/05/21/minnesota-vikings-kellen-mond-praise/.

Forget it, we're rebuilding, and this season will just be painful. It makes no sense to trade a 2nd round pick for an under-performing QB. And you think Cousins = Stafford? The two are light years apart, not to mention the fact that we don't have anything close to a Sean McVay on our staff to make that even remotely possible

 

[hawkfan68]

Forget it, we're rebuilding, and this season will just be painful. It makes no sense to trade a 2nd round pick for an under-performing QB. And you think Cousins = Stafford? The two are light years apart, not to mention the fact that we don't have anything close to a Sean McVay on our staff to make that even remotely possible

You do have a point about this season. And I completely forgot about Cousin's contract. My bad for not checking on that. I believe he is counting against $45M to the Vikings which is probably why they are eager to trade him. Most likely he probably wouldn't be a good get for that amount of $. However, he is in his last year of his contract. Perhaps he becomes an option next season if the QB spot is still a question mark and the Seahawks aren't able to get one of the top QBs in 2023 draft.

As for Cousins and Stafford being equal, the stats say otherwise. Cousins has put up nearly equal or better numbers than Stafford has in the regular season. Playoffs are a different matter, Cousins numbers are worse than Stafford there - https://stathead.com/football/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=CousKi00&player_id1=StafMa00&sum=0&request=1

 

[BlueTalon]

not sure I would have drafted one. But I didn’t just say “drafted”. I said signed, drafted or traded for. I would have grabbed Baker but there were plenty of experienced QBs that also could have been signed that were better than the two we have.

If you wouldn't have drafted a QB this year, it's a little disingenuous to include not drafting a QB in your list of knocks against PC. And "experienced" =/= "better".

Most things are meaningless without context. I fully believe that PC sees something in Geno & Lock in an open competition that we aren't privy to at this point, but I don't think that is why they didn't pick up any other QBs this offseason. I believe they didn't get any other QBs because the QB cupboard has nothing in it but high priced leftovers. Nothing available is worth the price, and nothing available represents a significant improvement over what we already have.

You said you weren't sure you would have drafted a QB. To paraphrase, you weren't willing to spend any draft capital, and sacrifice any of the players we acquired in this year's draft, in order to get a QB in this year's draft. Well, the Seahawks were likewise not willing to spend any draft capital and sacrifice any players we got in this year's draft or any players we will receive in next year's draft also. The upside just wasn't there. Not with Mayfied, not with Garoppolo, not with Cousins, not with anybody. So we're going to just roll with what we already have. Nobody is making excuses for anything. Either Geno/Lock will be up to the task, or they won't be. And if they're not, we're primed to do something about that next year.

 

[rcaido]

Wilson's Fourth Quarter comebacks are great, but again, Russ was SPOTTED the best defense in the entire NFL and the benefit of facing D's that were scheming for a completely different player.


Here's the thing: All the things you say Russ brought, high efficiency in very limited pass attempts, is what you ask of an elite game manager. Elite still, yes, but still a game manager.

In 2013, in moments in a game when the 'Hawks were FORCED to put the game on Russ's arm, he wasn't exceptional or elite. In 3rd downs in obvious passing situations (4 or more yards to go), when the defense was actually KEYED on the passing game, Russ's passer rating dropped to 83.1 for the mid range (3rd and 4-6 yards) and 61.1 for longer (7-9 yards).

Compare this to guys like Manning (109.5 and 79.6), Brees (131.8 and 72.7), or Rivers (104.2 / 94.3) you can see how far the gap is from 'top 5' QBs to Russ. Heck, even Nick Foles (94.2 / 67.8) in his non-Super Bowl year was a better guy when you NEEDED him to beat the other team with his arm.


Russ was not that guy that year. He was the guy who we counted on to not screw up, to take advantage of defenses that didn't want to be posterized by Marshawn Lynch, and use his legs in RPO plays to catch Ds by surprise. None of that is 'bad', but that's a completely different thing than what people think of when they are talking about $50 million a season franchise QBs. And that is a completely different style of play than what the Seahawks had gotten from Russ pretty much since then, anyway.

Lets put this in perspective, this was his second year, you're comparing him to QB legends still in their prime. Look what he did the following 2 years. Also compare them to Brady & Rodgers.

Wilson Seahawks 3rd down conversions
2013 - 18th
2014 - 8th
2015 - 3rd

Brady Patriots 3rd down conversions
2013 - 12th
2014 - 4th
2015 - 15th

Rodgers Packers 3rd down conversion
2013 - 9th
2014 - 3rd
2015 - 27th

You're really down playing Wilson 2013 year.

Team went 13-3, three of the losses Seahawks were either tied or ahead in the 4th quarter.
Wilson had 4 game winning drives, 5 if you include the 49ers championship game. We dont win a SB without him, probably miss the playoffs too. Just cherry picking the 3rd downs.

 

[Spin Doctor]

The talk of a game manager is interesting. Because Brady for most of his career was a game manager. But over time Brady was capable of improving enough to be able to take over a game. R. Wilson used to be able to take over a game or carry a team to a win but that time is over for him IMO. No one doubts that R. Wilson can return to being a game manager with the football but he has become too undisciplined lately for my liking. This is because Wilson is looking for the homerun more so than ever and isn't using his legs like he used to. Wilson has something left in the tank to help the Broncos win football games but I am not sure if he can take over games. If Wilson can outduel Mahomes, Allen, etc and other young AFC QBs in the conference I would be impressed.

Speaking of Cousins he hasn't show the ability to take over a game for a long time now. While Stafford has shown that he is capable of helping his team win in the clutch. It is like comparing apples to oranges really.

I do not think Pete is in denial about what he has in Geno or Lock. He wants them to compete and to be game managers on offense given the sheer overwhelming talent at the skill positions. Now if Geno or Lock can show they can take over a game and help the team win a few games with their own personal heroics here and there that would be a bonus. But I do not expect this based on what we have seen from Geno or Lock so far as they both lack experience.

Brady hasn't been a game manager most of his career, that is a huge mischaracterization of Brady. Aside from his first Super Bowl run, Brady has been a force in the NFL. In 2003 and 2005 he received MVP votes and was in the upper echelon of bulk stats for those respective years. In 2002 I believe he was number 1 in TDs and was 6th in yardage and something like 4th in attempts.

When looking at Brady's numbers in his early years, we have to realize that the NFL was an entirely different game all together. Numbers like 3700 yards and 28 TDs seem pedestrian these days -- but back in the early 2000s those numbers were near the top of the NFL. It was rare to have 4000 yard passers, only a small handful of players did it.

Tom Brady was only a game manager in his first Super Bowl run. For his time he was putting up some really good numbers, consistently year after year.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Lets put this in perspective, this was his second year, you're comparing him to QB legends still in their prime. Look what he did the following 2 years. Also compare them to Brady & Rodgers.

Wilson Seahawks 3rd down conversions
2013 - 18th
2014 - 8th
2015 - 3rd

Brady Patriots 3rd down conversions
2013 - 12th
2014 - 4th
2015 - 15th

Rodgers Packers 3rd down conversion
2013 - 9th
2014 - 3rd
2015 - 27th

You're really down playing Wilson 2013 year.

Team went 13-3, three of the losses Seahawks were either tied or ahead in the 4th quarter.
Wilson had 4 game winning drives, 5 if you include the 49ers championship game. We dont win a SB without him, probably miss the playoffs too. Just cherry picking the 3rd downs.

Absolutely. Russell Wilson was one of the most important parts of our 2013 team. Sure, there are several QB's that could have won, but the number is far fewer than people realize. There is a lot of revisionist history going on about Russell Wilson and his play/contribution to the Super Bowl run. He was still one of the most important aspects of that team.

There is als cognitive dissonance going on around here about just needing a game manager/mediocre QB and that Pete's system will take care of everything -- because look at 2013. A overwhelming majority of the teams since 2010 that have made the Super Bowl had elite or very good QB play -- ourselves included.

 

[JayhawkMike]

If you wouldn't have drafted a QB this year, it's a little disingenuous to include not drafting a QB in your list of knocks against PC. And "experienced" =/= "better".

Most things are meaningless without context. I fully believe that PC sees something in Geno & Lock in an open competition that we aren't privy to at this point, but I don't think that is why they didn't pick up any other QBs this offseason. I believe they didn't get any other QBs because the QB cupboard has nothing in it but high priced leftovers. Nothing available is worth the price, and nothing available represents a significant improvement over what we already have.

You said you weren't sure you would have drafted a QB. To paraphrase, you weren't willing to spend any draft capital, and sacrifice any of the players we acquired in this year's draft, in order to get a QB in this year's draft. Well, the Seahawks were likewise not willing to spend any draft capital and sacrifice any players we got in this year's draft or any players we will receive in next year's draft also. The upside just wasn't there. Not with Mayfied, not with Garoppolo, not with Cousins, not with anybody. So we're going to just roll with what we already have. Nobody is making excuses for anything. Either Geno/Lock will be up to the task, or they won't be. And if they're not, we're primed to do something about that next year.

Nice way to quote something I didn’t say Or even imply. “I don’t know“ mean “I don’t know.“

what I DO know is that every year or two I would have drafted a later round QB to take a chance on. I absolutely would have done that this year. iF you are going to give up a year you play a rookie or young QB that year to see what you have and give them experience. You don’t play a 30 year old DUI getting no future overpaid Geno Smit’s.