Why it took so long to make a coaching change?

keasley45

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Messages
4,007
Reaction score
7,236
Location
Cockeysville, Md
We're back to regular season wins again. Let me ask,,,,did you feel any Seahawk team post 2014 were true contenders? I know some did. I didn't.

Just seems like so many people were happy enough with a couple of conference title tshirts. I would have traded in a bunch of those regular season records for less wins and a vision of building something to truly compete.
The year we had to bring Lynch back because we lost our entire backfield. I think we could have done something that year. 2019?

I also think we could have done some damage in 2020.

Yeah. 2017 was a bust. 2018 was the shift completely away from the remnants of the LOB with only Earl left. But yeah, 2019, we had enough to make some noise and in 2020 we had the pieces to compete far deeper than we did.
 

James in PA

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
5,088
Reaction score
5,068
McVay was a Pete killer more than anyone else. At least Pete was able to hold his own against Shanny up until these last couple seasons. McVay, however, was the worst thing that could have ever happened to Pete. The home playoff loss against a broken-thumbed Goff still irks me. Inexcusable. Just worse than the playoff loss 2 years earlier in which we kept running into a brick wall against Dallas, only to try it again and again until time expired. SMH.
 

pittpnthrs

Well-known member
Joined
May 19, 2017
Messages
5,681
Reaction score
2,273
The year we had to bring Lynch back because we lost our entire backfield. I think we could have done something that year. 2019?

I also think we could have done some damage in 2020.

Yeah. 2017 was a bust. 2018 was the shift completely away from the remnants of the LOB with only Earl left. But yeah, 2019, we had enough to make some noise and in 2020 we had the pieces to compete far deeper than we did.

I respect your opinion. I just never felt they were serious contenders in any of those seasons.
 

keasley45

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Messages
4,007
Reaction score
7,236
Location
Cockeysville, Md
I don’t know which part of this is factual..perhaps the whole thing.

But, this is one of the best posts I’ve read.

Thank you for sharing!!!

Thanks. There's a ton of smoke to support the fire and i could fill 10 pages with evidence over the years to support it. If you understand the core philosophy of what Pete was teaching, beyond the Xs and Os (its based in learning organization principles, and his culture speak, book, his entire methodology scream it) things look a bit clearer in my opinion.

he was a hands off guy, despite all of the belief to the contrary. He built the boat, charted the path, explained to process and where the boat needed to go, and then relished in the process of the team and its individual members owning it all and making it theirs. Its why the LOB, Lynch, Doug and the rest have the bond they do. Pete brought them all in and forged an incredible connection with that first group. His recipe worked remarkably well. And i dont think it was that he had elite talent everywhere. He just had 22 guys that he brought in within a year or so of one another whos belief in eachother and the system that they themselves owned, transcended the game.

And it was the success that he saw in that first build that led him to believe he could just do it again. But building it on the move with free agents coming in and out and having to learn their way in was a different beast. As was trying to do it without bringing in the loud voices who helped maintain the standard, but were also blunt, honest and direct in their criticism of the system, Russ, or his own direction.

John supported him because the core of what Pete built is remarkable. Its rare in sport, let alone the business world to have a culture of leadership and learning the likes of whch Pete installed. Its why John went out and got a guy that 100% understands it and has THE things Pete lost or maybe never had - the willingness to lead with compassion, but if reports are to be believed, do so with honesty and directness. That, and the willingness to create a strategy that is flexible and suited to the players, as opposed to having the players be forced into a role.

Its also why ultimately letting Pete walk was sincerely difficult for John and no doubt everyone involved in the organzation. Pete built the foundation of everything thats been our period of greatest success. and if Mike and this next era of hawks succeed, it will be in large part attributable to the brilliance of what Pete created.

Its just that sometimes fate requires the creator of a thing move on and let new eyes shape it before it can truly flourish as it should.
 

chris98251

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Messages
40,054
Reaction score
2,255
Location
Roy Wa.
This. 10000%

1. From 2016 to 2020, we went 10 wins, then 9, 10, 11, and 12 in 2020. That in no way, shape or form is a reason for any HC to be fired. Its year over year improvement to the tune of having a top 10 cumulative record over that span in the league (maybe top 5?). The 9 win season came when we had literally no viable running backs due to injury.

There was a shift in 21 that was in hindsight (my speculation) rooted in a mandate from 'above' that things needed to be different. It may even have come the season before, on the heels of the Adam's acquisition. But that shift i'm pretty sure was a result of John and Jody growing tired of the Wilson issue (which became the Wilson saga), and wary of Pete's specific style of coaching - too soft on execution, too relyant on coordinators carrying the burden for mandating accountabiity and 'leading' the team... Pete was too detached. And you can go as far back as KJ's early years and a story he told when asked about what he thought Pete's shortcoming were - he recounted a time in training camp when Norton was still LB's coach where he'd made an error on a play. He watched as Pete consulted with Norton and told him (removed from KJ) what he wanted KJ to correct, and relied on Ken to tell him. KJ expressed that he thought that Pete's weakness was never being direct enough and exerting his own authority. I think thats just a first hand account of a leadership style Pete believed in to a fault. And one that ultimately undid him.

2. How things went down makes more sense if you accept the reality that Pete was a facilitator type of leader and less a dictatorial one. Pete, from the outset, brought in guys to grow them and allow them room to flourish within a system, while he stood back and nourished the overall culture. As such, the team's success was in large part (too large) predicated on the ability of his coordinators. His standoffish approach was great in the sense that it allowed maximum latitude for leaders and players to find their unique way of leading / playing. But if the person chosen wasnt up to the task, Pete didnt always pull the trigger fast enough to make a change. Jeremy Bates and Chris Richard were two of the few examples where he saw that the guys werent up to task and invited them to find other future paths outside of Seattle. Holding onto guys like Norton, Cable... that was Pete relying on the seasoned veteran coach to provide the discipline he didnt give himself, more than it was a belief that those guys were necessarily the best candidates or smartest football minds to lead their respective groups.

The folks in the front office knew how Pete operated- that he stood back and 'coordinated' and so provided him the latitude to change the guard, so to speak.

3. The other piece was Wilson. John was ready to move on well before Wilson was traded. I think he saw pretty clearly the limitations that would always exist if Wilson stayed and didnt want be restricted by them. Pete might have seen it, but his undying belief in one's ability to overcome compelled him to stay the course. That difference between the two leaders was made pretty obvious in the post trade presser the two men gave when Wilson left. John was ready to move on and obviously had zero regret. Pete's demeanor was one that expressed obvious regret. John likely granted Pete leeway because he saw how much working around Wilson limited the team, and thought that post Wilson, Pete could get his mojo back and bring in the personalities that COULDNT flourish with Wilson being catered to at the most imprtant position on the field - you need look no firther than the fiasco in Denver and on field outbursts of frustration by teammates at Wilson's poor play. Pete was sculpting a soft team that WOULDNT rebel against Wilson. John saw that neutering of the team and the absense of the 'tough love' that sharpened the LOB and which ultimately leads to accountability in keeping Wison as a mitigating factor in the team's struggles.

So, John gave Wilson his money in 2019 but then also tightened the leash on things (again, my speculation, but i think its correct). A personality like Adam's being brought in (a guy who was completely counter culture to the quiet, lead by example. 'team' guy Pete preferred) at great expense, in my opinion was the beginning of the shift from the way Pete wanted his lockerrom and the aggressive, 'Alpha', uber athlete, high octane player John has gone on record as saying the team had been missing. John was no longer willing to grow a bunch of soft guys for the sake of Wilson... or Pete, if it was found that Pete couldnt do what was necessary to right the ship.

Pete's style was the problem, but one that he was given three season's to REALLY correct, post mandate / Wilson trade. John wanted a different QB, a different attitude, and a more felxible approach. That was (i believe) made clear in 2019 / 2020 and supported by the fact that in 2019 is when the wheels cmae off the Wilson bus when his team discovered the depths of which John was willing to entertain trading Wilson. Adams being brought in was another signal. Wilson being ultimately traded, again, proof. But before that, the bottom line success of the team (or its failures) could be reasonable set at his coordnators feet and Pete's softness toward them and Wilson. It stood to reason that if Pete could just harden a bit and get his edge back, things could be better.

The final straw? When it became obvious last year that Pete had lost his desire to bring in the 'right' guys to run things. Hurtt was a failure and allowed to fail. Waldron, the same. And Pete, judging by his post 'retirement' presser, was more concerned about his guys and thier families having to find other pastures than he was the team's W/L record.

Pete softened with age from a point where his 'Hard' was only ever 'just' good enough to hold a group like the LOB together. How quickly that group, plus ADB and Lynch were disbanded points to just how little Pete wanted to be the guy responsible for getting in guy's faces and leading them 1 on 1.

Like most situations in leadership, leadership styles can become outdated. The thing with Pete is that his approach WAS rooted in a method that should have allowed for perpetual success. ultimately, the team seeing the degree of success it did under his leadership proves that. His 'Win Forever' book is a testament to exactly how good he is at understanding what leadership, growth and winning require. But ultimately, his own unique personality and unwillingness to engage and make the tough calls with coaches and players was his achilles heal. But the proof of his base approach to things afforded him a chance to 'fix' his errors. He was just too old and too leaniant at 73 to do it.

When you hear John talk about maintaining the culture in Seattle, its Pete's core philosophy he's talking about. Growing leaders, enabling coaches, creating a learning organization, always growing... THAT part is right. How Pete went about it in the end was no longer viable and THAT is why he was let go when he was. There was enough good still happening for us to win 12 games in 2020 - a season that SHOULD have seen us go much further than we did, were it not for the fatal limitation that John ultimately traded away in 2021. The culture, otherwise, and play on D was good enough up to that point to make a run. 2021 on was Pete's prove it or move on period. And John chose to move on.

John gave Pete a chance to succeed without Russ and with a new set of guys around him. In 2 years, he failed. He was let go.
Great post, don't agree with every assessment but in General adaption and recognition of issues and the failure to address them forthright was a huge key.
 

keasley45

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Messages
4,007
Reaction score
7,236
Location
Cockeysville, Md
All Russ and very little talk about the piss poor game planning. Sad thing is that without Russ, those playoff appearances don't even happen.

Some people need to take a step back and ask themselves how they envision the time period from 2015 on if Geno Smith was the QB.
The game planning revolves around the QB, 100% on every team. Do you think we would have taken the same approach in our wildcard loss to Dallas if Pete wasnt reluctant to let Russ stand back and distribute the ball in the flow of a normal offense? Pete called it that way because he didnt trust his QB to execute the plan. He knew Russ would never be abe to do what he's shown now beyond doubt that he cant - Run a reliable, on time, on script, offense. Pete used the one tool that he could rely on to develop a gameplan that would open up the passing lanes that Russ couldnt hit unless he was running around. Did he go too far? Absolutely. but it wouldnt have happened at all if the trust was there.

I just dont see how you can draw a line between the strategies developed to account for Russ game in and game out / season in and season out, and those that would have occured had anyone else been QB. Its already been proven than much of what was thought about Pete's 'approach' was flat wrong. he didnt not care about winning in quarters 1 through 3. he just underscored the fact that you win the game in the end, and not before. Just like he didnt believe in a stale, run run pass punt offense. Two years with Geno and a pass heavy attack that saw his QB lead the league in completion percentage and the long ball, among other stats show that.

As to how Geno would have done?

From 2016 to 2020 our RBs alone averaged top 5 to 10 in average yards per carry every year except 2017 i beleive. And during that period our defense, despite falling from the LOB standard, was still a middle of the pack group.

Geno has had literally one of the worst defenses in the league across from him and little support from his running game in his first 2 years and has outlplayed Russ in Denver, who's defense his first year was setting all time records and who in his second year had an offensive genius for a coach. His running games also werent league worst. Give Geno what Russ had during that span and i think he'd have done great.

I think Geno would have done well because the dude is even better than he's shown to date, and because so many other decisions would have been different.

The drafting strategy would have been entirely different in not having to compensate for a wildcard at QB. Much the way Pete and John did in 2022, i think they would have given him the tools to excell at what he is - a pocket passer. That was never the need with Russ as he never stayed in the pocket.

i also think the coordinator choices would have been different. Bevell was the soft voice that was kept around to handle Russ while Cable was left to coordinate the run game. Bevell was reported to have been in verbal spats with the LOB over the poor performance in our SB loss and when Russ faultered the following season. If Russ isnt there, i dont think the 2 headed approach to the offense stays as long as it did.

Free agency would also have been different in that bringing in guys with the swag of Adams would have been the norm. The Pete / Russ combo necessitated quiet guys.

You just cant extract Russ from Pete and the team's performance. Everything, good and bad, revolved around the decision to keep him. John knew it. Jody learned to understand it. Its why he was kept.
 

pittpnthrs

Well-known member
Joined
May 19, 2017
Messages
5,681
Reaction score
2,273
The game planning revolves around the QB, 100% on every team. Do you think we would have taken the same approach in our wildcard loss to Dallas if Pete wasnt reluctant to let Russ stand back and distribute the ball in the flow of a normal offense? Pete called it that way because he didnt trust his QB to execute the plan. He knew Russ would never be abe to do what he's shown now beyond doubt that he cant - Run a reliable, on time, on script, offense. Pete used the one tool that he could rely on to develop a gameplan that would open up the passing lanes that Russ couldnt hit unless he was running around. Did he go too far? Absolutely. but it wouldnt have happened at all if the trust was there.

I just dont see how you can draw a line between the strategies developed to account for Russ game in and game out / season in and season out, and those that would have occured had anyone else been QB. Its already been proven than much of what was thought about Pete's 'approach' was flat wrong. he didnt not care about winning in quarters 1 through 3. he just underscored the fact that you win the game in the end, and not before. Just like he didnt believe in a stale, run run pass punt offense. Two years with Geno and a pass heavy attack that saw his QB lead the league in completion percentage and the long ball, among other stats show that.

As to how Geno would have done?

From 2016 to 2020 our RBs alone averaged top 5 to 10 in average yards per carry every year except 2017 i beleive. And during that period our defense, despite falling from the LOB standard, was still a middle of the pack group.

Geno has had literally one of the worst defenses in the league across from him and little support from his running game in his first 2 years and has outlplayed Russ in Denver, who's defense his first year was setting all time records and who in his second year had an offensive genius for a coach. His running games also werent league worst. Give Geno what Russ had during that span and i think he'd have done great.

I think Geno would have done well because the dude is even better than he's shown to date, and because so many other decisions would have been different.

The drafting strategy would have been entirely different in not having to compensate for a wildcard at QB. Much the way Pete and John did in 2022, i think they would have given him the tools to excell at what he is - a pocket passer. That was never the need with Russ as he never stayed in the pocket.

i also think the coordinator choices would have been different. Bevell was the soft voice that was kept around to handle Russ while Cable was left to coordinate the run game. Bevell was reported to have been in verbal spats with the LOB over the poor performance in our SB loss and when Russ faultered the following season. If Russ isnt there, i dont think the 2 headed approach to the offense stays as long as it did.

Free agency would also have been different in that bringing in guys with the swag of Adams would have been the norm. The Pete / Russ combo necessitated quiet guys.

You just cant extract Russ from Pete and the team's performance. Everything, good and bad, revolved around the decision to keep him. John knew it. Jody learned to understand it. Its why he was kept.

The game planning does not revolve around just the QB 100% of the time. True game planning revolves around the other teams weaknesses and matchups you can exploit. So Pete planned to unsuccessfully run the ball all game long against Dallas because he didn't trust his QB? His franchise QB that had been so clutch for him time and time again? Thats insane. Pete game planned the way he did against Dallas because he saw something that he thought would work with the run and when it was obvious it wasn't, he was to slow or dense to know when or how to adapt. We saw that with Pete forever.

So the question is, since Pete's game plan for Dallas was a complete and utter failure, would Seattle have fared better cutting Russ loose?

Geno outplayed a Russell Wilson that's been done for 4 years now? What a guage to go by. The guy has never won more than 9 games in his career and has never won a post season game in his life. Gee, I wonder why he didn't start ahead of Wilson when Russ was here? Geno is nothing more than a system, game manager QB and he's not better than what has been shown. Lol. He has lulls in stretches every season.

Good lord. If free agency normalcy would have been guys with swag like Adams, aren't you happy that wasn't the case? What a disaster that would have been.

Russ was kept because he was good enough for 10 to 12 wins automatically regardless of the coordinators or Pete's game plans,,,,until he wasn't. That is something Geno Smith will never give you or could do though. Big difference.
 

Torc

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 30, 2014
Messages
1,301
Reaction score
1,537
I think one thing that cost the Seahawks during the Pete tenure is the lack of competition for playing time. At least that is my perception.

The first couple of years JS and Pete were here, the roster churn was something to behold. The team could have put players' names on masking tape instead of permanently fixing them to their jerseys. Compete, compete, compete. Bring in a (at the time) high priced free agent QB.....rookie third rounder competes and wins the job.

I don't think this is just at the QB position but it's a good example. Almost every team brings in legit QB prospects/projects to develop. Schneider's mentor, Ron Wolf, was famous for this, bringing in guys like Mark Brunell, Aaron Brooks and Matt Hasselbeck. There has been a distinct lack of high quality QB prospects during the Schneider tenure. To me, that contradicts Pete's mantra of "Always Compete". I'm of the opinion that the starting QB should ALWAYS be looking over his shoulder.

I think this applies to other positions as well. We talk about Pete's loyalty to players, which is commendable....but also indicates that players were not expected to always be competing for their job. In today's NFL, I think that this is even more important - there should always be developmental players in the pipeline who have the talent to replace the more established guys as they move along to larger contracts on other teams or even outright press the starters for more playing time.
 

hawks85

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 23, 2014
Messages
1,107
Reaction score
481
Location
Seattle, Washington
From what I was told a few months ago Pete was offered to stay, BUT the DC coaching staff had to change or something along those lines, and Pete said no. He said he would work with Hurtt to fix the defense or something like that, and I guess Jody said not good enough, and here we are, the entire coaching staff was let go.
 

James in PA

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2013
Messages
5,088
Reaction score
5,068
From what I was told a few months ago Pete was offered to stay, BUT the DC coaching staff had to change or something along those lines, and Pete said no. He said he would work with Hurtt to fix the defense or something like that, and I guess Jody said not good enough, and here we are, the entire coaching staff was let go.
That adds up if you read between the lines of what Pete said at his farewell press conference. If that was indeed the case, Jody made the right decision. Absolutely no way, no how should Hurtt have retained his job under any circumstances. Should have never gotten the job in the first place.
 

BirdsCommaAngry

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 13, 2013
Messages
1,330
Reaction score
190
His down years were borderline playoff teams. Hard to move on from that until it's both been happening for years and the half of the team underachieving the most is the half he specializes in.
 

Spin Doctor

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 8, 2009
Messages
5,281
Reaction score
2,274
The issue with Pete is he never was bad enough to straight up fire. If you want a guy to run every facet of your organization, Pete was the perfect figure for that. He brought a level of magnification in the national spotlight, even before he was successful here. In addition to that he never coached a truly awful team for the Seahawks. If you're looking for a guy to run your business, Pete is the perfect figure to do so, especially with the future of the Seahawks in a tad bit of a limbo.

I was saying he was a bridge to nowhere for years, but I think it's easy to see why he was kept around.

I think the strangest move by our ownership is the lengthy extension given to Carroll back in 2020. He would have been the oldest coach to ever coach in the NFL if he had played it out. The duration of that contract never made sense to me.
 

ZagHawk

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
2,173
Reaction score
184
Pete Carroll was undoubtedly the best coach that the Seahawks ever had. The run of consistency that the Hawks displayed during his tenure was incredible. With this said, it was pretty evident from around 2016 on that things were starting to disintegrate. Many of us on this board were calling into question his coaching decisions on and off the field with both play and personnel. I’m just curious why you think it took the organization so long to make a change or at least do something to change the direction of the team?

It's the same reason the Mariners didn't have large changes for a long time either...when you're RIGHT On the cusp of something acceptable (For the Mariners it was always a few games away from getting into the playoffers, for the Hawks it was always a game or two away from the NFCCG). It takes a long time for the OVERALL fanbase to accept that it's not going to get any better than what they are seeing and it's not just a case of "bad luck", and therefore stop showing up to games to influence the owner to actually do something about it.
 
Top