We Got What Many of You Asked For

[Ozzy]

Granted. It's more the idea the bad picks were due to Pete and JS had nothing to do with it. That's simply not true.

Well I don’t believe that. I only repeated that a couple of bad picks were highlighted by the scout who leaked it to the media. To be fair the scout also said he loved working for Pete but he thought he meddled too much to a negative outcome in some draft situations.


It’s all rumors so whi knows. I love John but I have questions about his decisions too

 

[warden]

The only time it came out in was public about Pete over ruling Schneider was in 2010. Schneider was hell bent about taking Russell Wilson in the second round. Pete over ruled him and we picked Bobby Wagner instead. John went on to get Wilson in the third round

 

[Fernie Hawks Fan]

C'mon folks...how many more of these Pete vs. MM are we going to have?

 

[JustTheTip]

I’d rather be bad for a few years, then being in purgatory for a decade.

Wish I could thank this post three times.

 

[OrangeGravy]

Wish I could thank this post three times.

There's no guarantee it'll only be a few years. It could be 1 or it could 15

 

[SPOHAWK]

If a better GM/HC combo becomes available next season, I would have no problem with turfing MM and JS, Jim Mora Jr. Style.

Translation I'm drunk

 

[Shanegotyou11]

Its way too soon to say MM is a failure. The Seahawks are 6 games in. He is in his 1st year. He deserves the time to grow. At the same time, the Anti PC crowd in here(the few) are changing the narrative now once the Hawks became .500 that its a bad roster or its Petes roster is why.

MM will have growing pains and I believe will lead the team to the playoffs and hopefully multiple chips as a Seahawks Coach.

 

[BGHawk]

We needed a reboot at head coach and we got it. We were not going to win with Pete any longer..that had went stale and everybody knew it. I have to remind myself also that this will take awhile. We started 3-0 , but we are not put together enough to win against these power teams. It's what it is now..we are basically at the rebuild stage.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I'm specifically talking to the fire Pete crowd, now I was all for some change, but it appears it was not the coach being the issue.
Most likely we would have the same record (or close) with Pete at the helm. Players that can't tackle like they have oil rubbed all over them. This team already looks like they checked out. Just seeing Geno and DK's body language tells me so.
It appears there will be some major changes to players in the near future, at least I hope so.
This was a shet show last night.

Here is the issue with Pete… he played a large part in the way that the roster is constructed right now.

We’ve had poor defenses for years at this point. What we’re seeing from MM is largely what we’ve been seeing from Pete’s teams.

Carroll was once a great coach, but keeping him was leading to increasingly diminishing returns.

Some of his decisions regarding coordinators were perplexing, and we also made awful personal decisions. The guy with the final say and vision for the draft was Pete.

MM might be a good replacement, he may be a dud. We don’t know, what we do know, is that Carroll’s teams were increasingly leading to diminishing returns.

He was also the oldest coach in the NFL next to Belichick and he was close to being the oldest guy to ever coach the game.

His age showed up in his defensive schemes. The Seahawks were the team to run the highest percentage of base packages in the NFL for quite awhile while most of the NFL switched to a scheme that mostly runs nickel and dime packages and two high safety. When we finally did attempt a more modern scheme, Pete chose a bozo to implement it and an iteration of the said defense that only Fangio himself really was able to run correctly.

The Seahawks were also increasingly making short term decisions to go for one more run.

I don’t know if this franchise looks any different at the moment with Carroll in charge. At least at this point we have someone that has implemented a modern defensive scheme at a high level.

Unfortunately, with MM is the exact opposite of Pete. His scheme is convoluted and takes a long time to get right.

MM in Baltimore did some crazy things with coverages. This runs contrary to Carroll’s KISS mentality. There is particularly a huge burden put on safeties and LBs in this scheme. The wide fronts we run make linebacker play CRUCIAL, in addition LBs are heavily used in coverage.

This is going to be a work in process. It was also the right decision to move on from Pete.

 

[Tamerlane]

There's no guarantee it'll only be a few years. It could be 1 or it could 15

Or 25. Or 35? How long did it take Seattle to get its first? Why is that not a more realistic time frame. 12 teams have never won a title. The Lions recently celebrated their first playoff win in 32 years. In the meantime Carroll racked up enough playoff wins to be tied for #11 all time, despite spending a decade in college football. Anyone who calls perennial winning seasons & playoffs 'mediocrity' simply has no concept of reality in the NFL.

What fantasy land are people living in, thinking Super Bowls just naturally come to those who wait. You all do realize that almost every Super Bowl since 2013 has been won by Tom Brady or Patrick Mahomes - and whichever coach was attached to them? Teams hang banners for a reason, because division championships, playoff wins, and just making the playoffs are all accomplishments. And some of us like watching our teams win and get to the playoffs, whatever happens after, rather than in a state of perpetual irrelevance. Any fan not spoiled like Seahawks fan would surely agree.

Carroll kept the Seahawks relevant for 14 years against all kinds of downward pressure: NFL equalizing mechanisms, bad schedule luck in the hardest division in football, the worst travel schedule in the league, and so on. You guys that would fire the likes of Tomlin or Carroll for their 'winning mediocrity' are nuts. By your logic you would have also fired Jim Harbaugh in SF, John Harbaugh after missing playoffs 4 of 5 seasons, Sean Payton for three straight 7-9 seasons in NO. How about 3 brutal losing seasons for Shanahan? You're fired!

There are far too few good coaches in the league and far too many reasons why teams fall short year to year. Carroll has come back from the dead umpteen times: he led 3 elite defenses on 3 different teams in 3 different decades (49ers in the '90s, USC in 2000s, Seahawks in the 2010s). The various metrics used by analytics folks to isolate and measure coaching contribution are pretty uniform and undeniable when it comes to Carroll, even late into his tenure:



So what was Pete fired for after all, when these other ultimate coaching survivors above weathered much worse storms? After constructing an historically great team playing in back to back Super Bowls, then moving on from the ageing LoB to pivot resources to the offense and rebuild around Wilson, Pete kept the Seahawks competitive, if not outright contending, for years -- all with, let's face it, a selectively gifted but ultimately 'limited' quarterback. He was no Brady or Mahomes tier even at his peak. But as late as 2020 the Seahawks were 12-4, missing NFC first seed by only a hair. 2021 was the lost season with hobbled QB. Then came the bold trade and reboot with Geno, which absolutely everyone heralded as a success beyond all expectations in 2022, putting Carroll in the Coach of the Year conversation. 2023 was really the first truly disappointing and unexpected result (despite beating 3 teams that later made the playoff and producing another winning season). There are many extenuating factors one could point to, but in any case, for that Pete should have been asked to make changes (e.g. new DC) but allowed to finish out his contract.

Evan Hill and his mindless hoardes died long ago on the hill that Carroll was holding back the greatness of Russell Wilson. Just as soon as that myth was dispelled, they constructed a new one, that Pete was the cause of all of Seattle's defensive woes. Well, here we are 6 games into 2024 with a new defensive genius and we've now seen what nonsense that is too. Mike Sando of The Athletic reported that Seattle's defensive performance against the Lions was the third worst by EPA in 14 years. The Giants loss was even more humiliating. At home against the 49ers, they somehow topped it, looking like an absolute mess in all phases. That 49ers lineup by the way was easily their weakest in many years: an already diminished 2024 roster that was additionally missing many key players (McCaffrey, Feliciano, Pearsall, Hargrave, Greenlaw, Hufanga, Ward, Moody, etc.)

Coaching is hard, winning harder. Macdonald inherited a talented but uneven team: good offensive talent, good cornerbacks, and a defensive line that was finally coming together (after years of 'mediocre' drafting by John). The 'linebacker guru' Mike Macdonald has candidly admitted that it's linebacker play that is killing the defense right now, despite him resetting the roster there and it being where his greatest expertise lies. I'm still rooting for MM but we simply have no reason to expect greatness and it's far more likely he is the next Brandon Staley than he's the next Pete Carroll.

 

[hgwellz12]

I’d rather be bad for a few years, then being in purgatory for a decade.

I usually ignore it, but using "then" instead of the proper "than" after the comma really makes it look like you've got a BDSM fetish when it comes to our Seahawks . Shoutsout to @RolandDeschain lol!

 

[knownone]

Or 25. Or 35? How long did it take Seattle to get its first? Why is that not a more realistic time frame. 12 teams have never won a title. The Lions recently celebrated their first playoff win in 32 years. In the meantime Carroll racked up enough playoff wins to be tied for #11 all time, despite spending a decade in college football. Anyone who calls perennial winning seasons & playoffs 'mediocrity' simply has no concept of reality in the NFL.

What fantasy land are people living in, thinking Super Bowls just naturally come to those who wait. You all do realize that almost every Super Bowl since 2013 has been won by Tom Brady or Patrick Mahomes - and whichever coach was attached to them? Teams hang banners for a reason, because division championships, playoff wins, and just making the playoffs are all accomplishments. And some of us like watching our teams win and get to the playoffs, whatever happens after, rather than in a state of perpetual irrelevance. Any fan not spoiled like Seahawks fan would surely agree.

Carroll kept the Seahawks relevant for 14 years against all kinds of downward pressure: NFL equalizing mechanisms, bad schedule luck in the hardest division in football, the worst travel schedule in the league, and so on. You guys that would fire the likes of Tomlin or Carroll for their 'winning mediocrity' are nuts. By your logic you would have also fired Jim Harbaugh in SF, John Harbaugh after missing playoffs 4 of 5 seasons, Sean Payton for three straight 7-9 seasons in NO. How about 3 brutal losing seasons for Shanahan? You're fired!

There are far too few good coaches in the league and far too many reasons why teams fall short year to year. Carroll has come back from the dead umpteen times: he led 3 elite defenses on 3 different teams in 3 different decades (49ers in the '90s, USC in 2000s, Seahawks in the 2010s). The various metrics used by analytics folks to isolate and measure coaching contribution are pretty uniform and undeniable when it comes to Carroll, even late into his tenure:



So what was Pete fired for after all, when these other ultimate coaching survivors above weathered much worse storms? After constructing an historically great team playing in back to back Super Bowls, then moving on from the ageing LoB to pivot resources to the offense and rebuild around Wilson, Pete kept the Seahawks competitive, if not outright contending, for years -- all with, let's face it, a selectively gifted but ultimately 'limited' quarterback. He was no Brady or Mahomes tier even at his peak. But as late as 2020 the Seahawks were 12-4, missing NFC first seed by only a hair. 2021 was the lost season with hobbled QB. Then came the bold trade and reboot with Geno, which absolutely everyone heralded as a success beyond all expectations in 2022, putting Carroll in the Coach of the Year conversation. 2023 was really the first truly disappointing and unexpected result (despite beating 3 teams that later made the playoff and producing another winning season). There are many extenuating factors one could point to, but in any case, for that Pete should have been asked to make changes (e.g. new DC) but allowed to finish out his contract.

Evan Hill and his mindless hoardes died long ago on the hill that Carroll was holding back the greatness of Russell Wilson. Just as soon as that myth was dispelled, they constructed a new one, that Pete was the cause of all of Seattle's defensive woes. Well, here we are 6 games into 2024 with a new defensive genius and we've now seen what nonsense that is too. Mike Sando of The Athletic reported that Seattle's defensive performance against the Lions was the third worst by EPA in 14 years. The Giants loss was even more humiliating. At home against the 49ers, they somehow topped it, looking like an absolute mess in all phases. That 49ers lineup by the way was easily their weakest in many years: an already diminished 2024 roster that was additionally missing many key players (McCaffrey, Feliciano, Pearsall, Hargrave, Greenlaw, Hufanga, Ward, Moody, etc.)

Coaching is hard, winning harder. Macdonald inherited a talented but uneven team: good offensive talent, good cornerbacks, and a defensive line that was finally coming together (after years of 'mediocre' drafting by John). The 'linebacker guru' Mike Macdonald has candidly admitted that it's linebacker play that is killing the defense right now, despite him resetting the roster there and it being where his greatest expertise lies. I'm still rooting for MM but we simply have no reason to expect greatness and it's far more likely he is the next Brandon Staley than he's the next Pete Carroll.

Great post.

Many people have grumbled about Pete's last five seasons, describing it as "stagnant" or "in decline," yet his record was 48-35. He made the playoffs in three out of five seasons during an era when the NFC West had three SBs and five NFCC appearances. Meanwhile, if Macdonald has just that level of success, he will become one of the best coaches in franchise history.

 

[bmorepunk]

Or 25. Or 35? How long did it take Seattle to get its first?\

I grew up during the stretch where this team didn't win a playoff game for 18 years and didn't even get in one for ten straight seasons.

I was neither excited nor upset that Carroll was let go. Either decision carries risk. Some people were clamoring to get rid of him 8-9 years ago and that was wild then. People weirdly think that if you just churn you might have to put up with a few years of suck then the team will be amazing. This theory has not worked out well for Broncos fans the last near decade.

A lot of people are really poor at enjoying the good things that happen. Some do this to the point where they always seem miserable. Why even watch football at all? If you can only be happy when your team does this super rare thing, you're just setting yourself up for a highly likely series of endless miseries.

OP is right on the narrow point: this is what many were clamoring for. Some for nearly a decade.

This could go great. This could go terrible. This could just us stuck in a 10-20 yaer cycle of actual mediocrity, now the later Carroll years where people called it mediocre. Medicore is hoping you win those last two games at the end of each season, then hope other teams lose so you can get into a wildcard game. We haven't had to deal with this for 20 years and I hope we don't have to.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Or 25. Or 35? How long did it take Seattle to get its first? Why is that not a more realistic time frame. 12 teams have never won a title. The Lions recently celebrated their first playoff win in 32 years. In the meantime Carroll racked up enough playoff wins to be tied for #11 all time, despite spending a decade in college football. Anyone who calls perennial winning seasons & playoffs 'mediocrity' simply has no concept of reality in the NFL.

What fantasy land are people living in, thinking Super Bowls just naturally come to those who wait. You all do realize that almost every Super Bowl since 2013 has been won by Tom Brady or Patrick Mahomes - and whichever coach was attached to them? Teams hang banners for a reason, because division championships, playoff wins, and just making the playoffs are all accomplishments. And some of us like watching our teams win and get to the playoffs, whatever happens after, rather than in a state of perpetual irrelevance. Any fan not spoiled like Seahawks fan would surely agree.

Carroll kept the Seahawks relevant for 14 years against all kinds of downward pressure: NFL equalizing mechanisms, bad schedule luck in the hardest division in football, the worst travel schedule in the league, and so on. You guys that would fire the likes of Tomlin or Carroll for their 'winning mediocrity' are nuts. By your logic you would have also fired Jim Harbaugh in SF, John Harbaugh after missing playoffs 4 of 5 seasons, Sean Payton for three straight 7-9 seasons in NO. How about 3 brutal losing seasons for Shanahan? You're fired!

There are far too few good coaches in the league and far too many reasons why teams fall short year to year. Carroll has come back from the dead umpteen times: he led 3 elite defenses on 3 different teams in 3 different decades (49ers in the '90s, USC in 2000s, Seahawks in the 2010s). The various metrics used by analytics folks to isolate and measure coaching contribution are pretty uniform and undeniable when it comes to Carroll, even late into his tenure:



So what was Pete fired for after all, when these other ultimate coaching survivors above weathered much worse storms? After constructing an historically great team playing in back to back Super Bowls, then moving on from the ageing LoB to pivot resources to the offense and rebuild around Wilson, Pete kept the Seahawks competitive, if not outright contending, for years -- all with, let's face it, a selectively gifted but ultimately 'limited' quarterback. He was no Brady or Mahomes tier even at his peak. But as late as 2020 the Seahawks were 12-4, missing NFC first seed by only a hair. 2021 was the lost season with hobbled QB. Then came the bold trade and reboot with Geno, which absolutely everyone heralded as a success beyond all expectations in 2022, putting Carroll in the Coach of the Year conversation. 2023 was really the first truly disappointing and unexpected result (despite beating 3 teams that later made the playoff and producing another winning season). There are many extenuating factors one could point to, but in any case, for that Pete should have been asked to make changes (e.g. new DC) but allowed to finish out his contract.

Evan Hill and his mindless hoardes died long ago on the hill that Carroll was holding back the greatness of Russell Wilson. Just as soon as that myth was dispelled, they constructed a new one, that Pete was the cause of all of Seattle's defensive woes. Well, here we are 6 games into 2024 with a new defensive genius and we've now seen what nonsense that is too. Mike Sando of The Athletic reported that Seattle's defensive performance against the Lions was the third worst by EPA in 14 years. The Giants loss was even more humiliating. At home against the 49ers, they somehow topped it, looking like an absolute mess in all phases. That 49ers lineup by the way was easily their weakest in many years: an already diminished 2024 roster that was additionally missing many key players (McCaffrey, Feliciano, Pearsall, Hargrave, Greenlaw, Hufanga, Ward, Moody, etc.)

Coaching is hard, winning harder. Macdonald inherited a talented but uneven team: good offensive talent, good cornerbacks, and a defensive line that was finally coming together (after years of 'mediocre' drafting by John). The 'linebacker guru' Mike Macdonald has candidly admitted that it's linebacker play that is killing the defense right now, despite him resetting the roster there and it being where his greatest expertise lies. I'm still rooting for MM but we simply have no reason to expect greatness and it's far more likely he is the next Brandon Staley than he's the next Pete Carroll.

What are you going on about? Carroll and Tomlin are carbon copies of each other. They both win/won just enough to reach the post season, but fielded teams that were never good enough or a threat to go anywhere after (after their SB success early on mind you when the NFL changed and they wouldn't). Is that what you want and yearn for? Just being good enough to make the post season, but never advancing? I don't and I can tell you that the majority of Steeler fans don't either. Do you realize what just being good enough gets you,,,,,,,nothing. It handicaps the teams in the draft and usually handcuffs the cap because they have to pay big money to FA's to fill holes. What we are seeing now is a byproduct of years of that. MM drafted to fill holes, but there's no depth behind it. It's going to take a couple more drafts to even remotely minimalize that and by that time the QB position is going to need addressed.

Yes, Pete had his hand in building some great defenses over the years, but couldn't cope with a newer style in which the players couldn't maul people anymore and it became a more finesse and scheme oriented. He didn't just fail there, he bottomed out. Bottom line is the game changed and Pete struggled to change with it, still wanting to implement old style philosophies (we're going to do this, you know we're going to do this, but its up to you to stop us). Those philosophies need all pro talent everywhere and fails when you don't.

It wasn't getting any better with Pete and it wasn't going to. It was stagnant and it didn't matter what coordinators were brought in. It was going to get worse before it got better. MM has a big task in front of him. He may or may not be up to it, but at least the organization recognized change was finally needed and are trying. That's all I asked for so i'm content no matter how it works out. The former was never going to work.

 

[pittpnthrs]

I was neither excited nor upset that Carroll was let go. Either decision carries risk. Some people were clamoring to get rid of him 8-9 years ago and that was wild then.

Honestly, Pete was done after he didn't fire Bevell after the 14' SB loss. Bevell might not have even deserved it, but you have to do something to keep the locker room. Pete didn't and it was then I and a few others knew the team under him would never reach those heights again. Let me ask,,,,,we're we wrong?

 

[Ozzy]

Ok a counter thought. People keep saying “the anti Pete” crowd. It’s entirely reasonable by guys like knownone and others though Pete should get another year. He had a ton of success and was an all time great. Your argument also is we were still winning. We were a little above .500 and still made the playoffs not every year but we were usually in the mix. Fair enough, it’s not a bad take at all.

For the other side though they saw other teams in the division having much more success. Pete responded by pouring most of our valuable resources into fixing the defense. Draft picks and FA were heavily weighed on that side of the ball and we had an all time great defensive mind. The result? A defense that the last 3 years the best they were was 26th. Pete was entering his mid 70’s and appears to not have an answer for the one thing he was known for.

So my point is, even if you disagree and Pete deserved another year wouldn’t you admit it’s at least a reasonable concern for those who disagree? There were valid reasons for it. The league appears to agree as he drew zero interest hole bellicheck is listed for a ton of jobs.

I’m just tired of the extremes. If you wanted to move on you thought Pete sucks and some of those posters seem too want Mike to fail as that seems to be all they post. Someone said well you just want Mike to succeed because you wanted Pete gone. I’d argue that’s a better place to be because at least that person wants the team to win.

Anyway I rambled way too long but maybe it’s time we quit acting like the other side of this debate is stupid, doesn’t know football etc. they’re both reasonable takes.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Also, let's put it into perspective as to what's really happening with this team currently. The defense is playing awful, but that should be expected with the injuries and poor depth behind the starters. Success depends on the starters being out there. It's going to take a few seasons to remedy this issue. The LB's aren't good and were a concern before the season even started. MM is aware of this and I think he'll fix it, but again it's going to take time.

The Oline is bad. Really bad. It's hard to find success on the ground (although Grubb needs to try and he acknowledges this) thus causing Geno to throw the ball darn near every down. That's hard to be consistent in that type of offense. Again, it's going to take time to fix the Oline.

If this team was completely healthy and didn't have to depend on players that are perennial backups or PS talent, they probably only have one loss at the moment. We all know injuries happen, but it's going to take time to fix the depth issues. This is the bad times I expected. It was inevitable. We as fans need to calm down. Better days are coming.

 

[Ozzy]

Here’s another point. The title of the thread is “you got what you asked for” there was zero guarantee Pete would be doing any better and in fact there is a stronger argument for things being even worse. At best Pete was coaching for 1-2 years. Were we winning a SB or even in line for any playoff success? If we’re using historical information like we do explaining why we should keep Pete then it’s fair to use that same data which shows it was unlikely we would even win a playoff game if Pete stayed another year or two. You can’t cherry pick your information to fit your narrative.

We didn’t fire a guy in his 40’s with a ton of time left. We cut it short by a year, maybe 2. Which is another reason why the “ you got what you asked for” 6 games into the season is odd and unfair.

 

[Optimus25]

Pete was what? 74? Next you gonna tell me you want 4 more years of biden?

Let go.

 

[RolandDeschain]

I usually ignore it, but using "then" instead of the proper "than" after the comma really makes it look like you've got a BDSM fetish when it comes to our Seahawks . Shoutsout to @RolandDeschain lol!

Continue doing the Lord's work, good sir.