USA Today: Hawks OL is a disaster, but Wilson isn't helping

[Rat]

Then again, the Jags releasing him still doesn't bode well for his abilities right now...

I think a big part of that was the Jags drafting Cam Robinson in the second round. They were depending on Albert to start, but when he waffled on the team, they could afford to take a hard stance or make a statement since they had other options. I imagine if their other option was Rees Odihambo, they would have been more open to swallowing their pride and taking Albert back.

 

[IndyHawk]

I said most of what I had to say on Aros thread about RW and the OP quotes an article with video evidence that pretty much proves my point.
The one thing I want to add is the 3 step and fire is something he absolutely needs to learn as others mentioned on here.
I do agree the play calling has sucked but our 20 million QB cannot change a call?like go into the shotgun,motion back out wide or hell put a WR in motion.I have said enough and it's fair to say I'm fustrated with our QB.I know it's not all on the OL.

 

[mrt144]

I said most of what I had to say on Aros thread about RW and the OP quotes an article with video evidence that pretty much proves my point.
The one thing I want to add is the 3 step and fire is something he absolutely needs to learn as others mentioned on here.
I do agree the play calling has sucked but our 20 million QB cannot change a call?like go into the shotgun,motion back out wide or hell put a WR in motion.I have said enough and it's fair to say I'm fustrated with our QB.I know it's not all on the OL.

RW would spray a bus full of kids with a Thompson if Pete told him to. Alternatively he would also refrain from interceding if PC sprayed a bus full of kids with a Thompson. When he called that audible in the NFCCG when the Packers called a cover zero and he hit Kearse on that bomb to the EZ - that wasn't RW the genius QB in action, it was defensive recognition with a specified set of options provided by Bevell to choose from in reaction.

I know ya'll want RW to be the OC half the time but his deference to authority in all aspects of his life doesn't allow for it.

 

[massari]

I'm not opposed to pursuing him. I'm just irked at the pipe dream so many fans have that we can just snap our fingers and get the Browns to go "Oh sure, here's a quality LT, we don't need him, thanks for the crummy player in return" or whatever it is they think we can do. The Browns value a quality LT becase who wouldn't, and that makes him prohibitively expensive for us.

The Browns are rebuilding and Thomas is 33 years old. Wouldn't they rather have a couple high draft picks before he starts to break down at any point?

If Graham is traded to make cap room, he could be replaced with one of the best pass blocking TE's Gary Barnidge who's a free agent right now if the price is right.

 

[WilsonMVP]

I've said this last year but it wasn't well received by most on this site. Russell has been David Carr'd. That alone is reason enough for a coaching overhaul. I'm afraid this staff has destroyed the potential of best QB in franchise history.

Hate to break it too you but he is allready the best QB in franchise history lol.

 

[Rat]

I've said this last year but it wasn't well received by most on this site. Russell has been David Carr'd. That alone is reason enough for a coaching overhaul. I'm afraid this staff has destroyed the potential of best QB in franchise history.

Hate to break it too you but he is allready the best QB in franchise history lol.

Isn't that what he said? At least I read it as he's worried that the coaching staff is going to limit the ceiling of our best ever QB.

 

[Rat]

The Browns are rebuilding and Thomas is 33 years old. Wouldn't they rather have a couple high draft picks before he starts to break down at any point?

Probably, but I can't see them getting "a couple high draft picks" for a 33-year-old. From our end, that would feel like a Tim Ruskell desperation trade.

There's also a good argument for the Browns to keep him, since they have a young, raw QB and don't want to David Carr him.

 

[semiahmoo]

I've said this last year but it wasn't well received by most on this site. Russell has been David Carr'd. That alone is reason enough for a coaching overhaul. I'm afraid this staff has destroyed the potential of best QB in franchise history.

Hate to break it too you but he is allready the best QB in franchise history lol.

That's not a terribly high bar for this particularly franchise.

[youtube]DTZ1yLsKcnY[/youtube]

 

[SpokaneHawks]

IMO, Wilson's game has changed partly due to constantly being harassed by 300 pound D-linemen but also because of the way he analyzes every microcosm of the game. Even when he was a rookie it was obvious to me he played best from behind, late in games. In my mind that's because he's working off of muscle memory and not thinking it over.

 

[Cyrus12]

Never blame Russ for anything or be prepared to be put on BLAST! Everyone will be buying super bowl tickets again after this weekend...well until we play a good team again anyway...

 

[mrt144]

I'm just going to leave this here

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2017/8/20/16 ... f-all-time
https://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2017/8/ ... 1504845554

How does a historically efficient QB simultaneously be so remedial?

 

[massari]

The Browns are rebuilding and Thomas is 33 years old. Wouldn't they rather have a couple high draft picks before he starts to break down at any point?

Probably, but I can't see them getting "a couple high draft picks" for a 33-year-old. From our end, that would feel like a Tim Ruskell desperation trade.

There's also a good argument for the Browns to keep him, since they have a young, raw QB and don't want to David Carr him.

There was a rumor that Cleveland sought Denver's first and second-round picks in the 2016 draft for Joe Thomas. If they can get Thomas right now for a 1st+3rd+Tobin/Odihambo then trade Graham somewhere for a 2nd round pick and Lane for a mid round pick to clear the needed cap room, I don't really think that's a desperation move. Seems like fair value. Then sign Gary Barnidge to replace Graham.

As great as Graham is, the offence has proven to be just as good or better without him after he went down with his knee injury in 2015.

Joe Thomas for one or two seasons until they find a LT or until Fant is healthy/develops would be perfect.

 

[Tusc2000]

Blaming Russ is ridiculous. When he's getting chased out of the pocket on every other play before it can even develop, and taking hit after hit, no wonder he's gun shy. I'm surprised he's able to function as well as he did.

 

[Tusc2000]

Then again, the Jags releasing him still doesn't bode well for his abilities right now...

I think a big part of that was the Jags drafting Cam Robinson in the second round. They were depending on Albert to start, but when he waffled on the team, they could afford to take a hard stance or make a statement since they had other options. I imagine if their other option was Rees Odihambo, they would have been more open to swallowing their pride and taking Albert back.

The fact that we could have drafted Cam Robinson before the Jags did makes me sick. I didn't like it then and I really hate it now. We have had a terrible O-line the past couple of years, it is not improving, and the idea that we would pass on a guy who is NFL ready just to stockpile a bunch of 3rd and 4th round picks was insane.

And we wound up with ... a D-line guy who was too stupid and reckless to take care of himself in the off-season and may never play a down in the NFL. And the D-line was hardly a reason for concern at this stage. Planning for the future you say? What future? Going 8-8 for the next half-decade because our O can't function properly???

And don't anybody start with Fant getting injured. He wasn't exceptionally good to begin with, and certainly isn't the answer, even when he returns next year.

Schneider treated this year's draft like he was a day trader, wheeling and dealing stocks. A few mid-to-late round picks will always work out, but they are no substitute for 1st round talent. His performance of late is a complete cluster f**** and the team is paying a big price. for his bad decisisons

 

[Popeyejones]

Been saying on this site for a couple years now that this one flaw in Wilson's game is what keeps him from being a top (and maybe the top) QB in the NFL. And of course I'm been getting crap for saying it for the same couple years. :lol:

Only two things I disagree with about the article (which points out that Wilson's line is atrocious but he also creates some of his own problems):

1) Height is a complete and total non-issue. It's lazy analysis. Drew Brees is a top 2 or 3 QB in the NFL in throwing from the pocket and manipulating rushers directions to his advantage while in the pocket, and he's an inch taller than Wilson. Over the course of their careers Doug Flutie and Jeff Garcia also became quite good at using the pocket to their advantage.

2) That Wilson is doing this because he's been beaten into fear by his bad O-line is also bad analysis. He's been running into pressure from above the pocket, ping-ponging into sacks in the pocket when he does step in, and running away from phantom pressure for his whole career. Since the first snap he has taken in his NFL career (I didn't watch him in college) he has been bailing as based on an internal clock and where he is in his progression, not pressure. He wasn't coaxed into that by a bad Oline, he has always done it.

And just to reiterate something I've said before, he's quite lucky in that this one major flaw is a QB flaw that QBs can still grow out of into their 30s. Roethlisberger played a lot like Wilson (almost only throwing from above the pocket, putting his OTs in unwinnable conflicts by trying to escape laterally or backwards rather than just stepping into the pocket, etc) and then in his early 30s something clicked and he turned into a good pocket passer. Wilson very much could still be on that trajectory, and there are other things that he does much better than Roethlisberger too already .

 

[cymatica]

Been saying on this site for a couple years now that this one flaw in Wilson's game is what keeps him from being a top (and maybe the top) QB in the NFL. And of course I'm been getting crap for saying it for the same couple years. :lol:

Only two things I disagree with about the article (which points out that Wilson's line is atrocious but he also creates some of his own problems):

1) Height is a complete and total non-issue. It's lazy analysis. Drew Brees is a top 2 or 3 QB in the NFL in throwing from the pocket and manipulating rushers directions to his advantage while in the pocket, and he's an inch taller than Wilson. Over the course of their careers Doug Flutie and Jeff Garcia also became quite good at using the pocket to their advantage.

2) That Wilson is doing this because he's been beaten into fear by his bad O-line is also bad analysis. He's been running into pressure from above the pocket, ping-ponging into sacks in the pocket when he does step in, and running away from phantom pressure for his whole career. Since the first snap he has taken in his NFL career (I didn't watch him in college) he has been bailing as based on an internal clock and where he is in his progression, not pressure. He wasn't coaxed into that by a bad Oline, he has always done it.

And just to reiterate something I've said before, he's quite lucky in that this one major flaw is a QB flaw that QBs can still grow out of into their 30s. Roethlisberger played a lot like Wilson (almost only throwing from above the pocket, putting his OTs in unwinnable conflicts by trying to escape laterally or backwards rather than just stepping into the pocket, etc) and then in his early 30s something clicked and he turned into a good pocket passer. Wilson very much could still be on that trajectory, and there are other things that he does much better than Roethlisberger too already .

Spot on, always loved Wilson, but his pocket presence is his flaw in exactly the way you described. At GB he moved laterally out the pocket while a wr it te(i think) was blocking. He could have stepped up to run but keeps moving sideways making it easy for the defender to disengage.

I think if our o-line was serviceable though, Wilson might have already grown out of that. Hell, maybe our scramble offense impedes his growth in that area. Why step into the pocket when our offense is designed for scrambling?

 

[MontanaHawk05]

The second half of 2015 is proof that Wilson can pass from the "pocket", his numbers were sensational ONCE Cable got the O-Line to form a pocket, and then Pass protect their asses off.

THEN 2016 happens, Pete gives Cable the task of re-booting for the Run game, thinking that we maybe had enough Backs to reestablish his run first mantra....Only problem is, Wilson's pocket disintegrates, he gets creamed, hurt, and everything goes back to square one.

The problem with your statement is that you're just assuming 2015's line was good because Wilson was good, and that 2016 Wilson was bad because his OL was bad.

But you aren't remembering it right.

2015's OL wasn't good. It still included Garry Gilliam, Justin Britt at the wrong position, J.R. Sweezy, and Patrick Lewis. Only one of those guys is still here (and the general consensus is that Gilliam and Sweezy were both laughably overpaid). Yet Wilson was great.

2016's OL was worse, yet Wilson still had his great moments. I don't remember anyone complaining about the OL when we beat New England, Philadelphia, or Detroit. Or the Rams and 49ers games that we won.

If you're looking for an explanation, Wilson's good spells fit far better with different gameplanning (i.e. get the ball out quickly) than it does with the talent quality of his OL. But too many of us are ingrained with one simple axiom - "success = good pass protection" - and have never really paid attention to how other factors can mask OL deficiency.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

It was pretty cold this morning. Thx a lot Russ

 

[semiahmoo]

IMO, Wilson's game has changed partly due to constantly being harassed by 300 pound D-linemen but also because of the way he analyzes every microcosm of the game. Even when he was a rookie it was obvious to me he played best from behind, late in games. In my mind that's because he's working off of muscle memory and not thinking it over.

That is a fascinating premise and one that might be quite accurate.

 

[semiahmoo]

Been saying on this site for a couple years now that this one flaw in Wilson's game is what keeps him from being a top (and maybe the top) QB in the NFL. And of course I'm been getting crap for saying it for the same couple years. :lol:

Only two things I disagree with about the article (which points out that Wilson's line is atrocious but he also creates some of his own problems):

1) Height is a complete and total non-issue. It's lazy analysis. Drew Brees is a top 2 or 3 QB in the NFL in throwing from the pocket and manipulating rushers directions to his advantage while in the pocket, and he's an inch taller than Wilson. Over the course of their careers Doug Flutie and Jeff Garcia also became quite good at using the pocket to their advantage.

2) That Wilson is doing this because he's been beaten into fear by his bad O-line is also bad analysis. He's been running into pressure from above the pocket, ping-ponging into sacks in the pocket when he does step in, and running away from phantom pressure for his whole career. Since the first snap he has taken in his NFL career (I didn't watch him in college) he has been bailing as based on an internal clock and where he is in his progression, not pressure. He wasn't coaxed into that by a bad Oline, he has always done it.

And just to reiterate something I've said before, he's quite lucky in that this one major flaw is a QB flaw that QBs can still grow out of into their 30s. Roethlisberger played a lot like Wilson (almost only throwing from above the pocket, putting his OTs in unwinnable conflicts by trying to escape laterally or backwards rather than just stepping into the pocket, etc) and then in his early 30s something clicked and he turned into a good pocket passer. Wilson very much could still be on that trajectory, and there are other things that he does much better than Roethlisberger too already .

Good points. I will say that Drew is at least 2 inches taller than RW. Don't care about the stat heights. I've stood next to both. Stood next to Russ more than once and was shocked by how short he really is. 5-10 tops. Long arms, huge hands, but a short dude. Beyond the height issue, Drew just has better presence/timing/ability to manipulate from within the pocket. Maybe he just has better eyes/mind for it? Hard to say - it's what makes some QB's good and others that rare "great" in the league.

As for Big Ben - don't think Russ has the physical stamina at his current pace of abuse to be afforded time to develop into a great pocket passer which is essential for a long QB life in this league. Ben R. is huge/strong. (And even then he's suffered injuries that have put him out of commission for a while) Plus he was able to develop from a visual perspective RW will never have due to his small stature.

RW's game requires a top notch running game IMO. Without that, his weaknesses are far too vulnerable. He doesn't seem to posses the ability to control the offense from the pocket and without that, any deep runs into the playoffs are unlikely. If Carson develops into a legit running threat, and the O-Line somehow transforms into something resembling competent, then RW can survive and even thrive in games.

Right now he's struggling. That is clear. He's lost a half-step and a bunch of confidence.

They paid him the big bucks but didn't work to protect him back there. That blame falls on coaching/management and partly RW himself for not demanding it. He's too passive.