Tre Flowers (I Need An Explanation)

Hockey Guy

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keasley45":1zu18594 said:
Hockey Guy":1zu18594 said:
keasley45":1zu18594 said:
The only mistake you can say Flowers made for certain is not getting a better jam off the line. Can't let the receiver get off like that. Agree with whoever said he should have played outside leverage, but he might have been doing it the way it was drawn up.

We're living in the past with this "jam off the line" narrative. They changed the rules because of the LOB & is almost impossible to do effectively without taking a penalty.

Well aware of the rule change. You can still slow the wr down off the line. Our CBs used to fight them off the line for the first 5 yards - lots of redirection, jabbing, (grabbing when they could get away with it) and the like. That's what the NFL disallowed.

The receivers, by the rules, are allowed to get off the line pretty clean nowadays. The DB can possibly take away 1 direction but if the QB & WR are on the same page he just goes the other way for an easy TD if the throw is on target. We've seen lots of examples of this all over the NFL the last few years & explained by the analysts. If the pressure doesn't get there, this is easy-peasy for any NFL QB.
 

chris98251

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Hockey Guy":4k4me0l1 said:
keasley45":4k4me0l1 said:
Hockey Guy":4k4me0l1 said:
keasley45":4k4me0l1 said:
The only mistake you can say Flowers made for certain is not getting a better jam off the line. Can't let the receiver get off like that. Agree with whoever said he should have played outside leverage, but he might have been doing it the way it was drawn up.

We're living in the past with this "jam off the line" narrative. They changed the rules because of the LOB & is almost impossible to do effectively without taking a penalty.

Well aware of the rule change. You can still slow the wr down off the line. Our CBs used to fight them off the line for the first 5 yards - lots of redirection, jabbing, (grabbing when they could get away with it) and the like. That's what the NFL disallowed.

The receivers, by the rules, are allowed to get off the line pretty clean nowadays. The DB can possibly take away 1 direction but if the QB & WR are on the same page he just goes the other way for an easy TD if the throw is on target. We've seen lots of examples of this all over the NFL the last few years & explained by the analysts. If the pressure doesn't get there, this is easy-peasy for any NFL QB.

You can chuck pop them in the pads and re direct, you can't hold or pull their jersey, press coverage is that. You can't body slam like Browner used to do, you can't hook and elbow clinch a hidden hold technique like Sherman was good at.
 

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chris98251":25vusohe said:
Hockey Guy":25vusohe said:
keasley45":25vusohe said:
Hockey Guy":25vusohe said:
We're living in the past with this "jam off the line" narrative. They changed the rules because of the LOB & is almost impossible to do effectively without taking a penalty.

Well aware of the rule change. You can still slow the wr down off the line. Our CBs used to fight them off the line for the first 5 yards - lots of redirection, jabbing, (grabbing when they could get away with it) and the like. That's what the NFL disallowed.

The receivers, by the rules, are allowed to get off the line pretty clean nowadays. The DB can possibly take away 1 direction but if the QB & WR are on the same page he just goes the other way for an easy TD if the throw is on target. We've seen lots of examples of this all over the NFL the last few years & explained by the analysts. If the pressure doesn't get there, this is easy-peasy for any NFL QB.

You can chuck pop them in the pads and re direct, you can't hold or pull their jersey, press coverage is that. You can't body slam like Browner used to do, you can't hook and elbow clinch a hidden hold technique like Sherman was good at.

You're still not stopping the receiver from going 1 way or the other is the point I'm making. I suppose you could make the arguement to re-direct him outside because that is a little bit harder throw, but still easy by NFL QB standards.
 

chris98251

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Hockey Guy":2ousm2iv said:
chris98251":2ousm2iv said:
Hockey Guy":2ousm2iv said:
keasley45":2ousm2iv said:
Well aware of the rule change. You can still slow the wr down off the line. Our CBs used to fight them off the line for the first 5 yards - lots of redirection, jabbing, (grabbing when they could get away with it) and the like. That's what the NFL disallowed.

The receivers, by the rules, are allowed to get off the line pretty clean nowadays. The DB can possibly take away 1 direction but if the QB & WR are on the same page he just goes the other way for an easy TD if the throw is on target. We've seen lots of examples of this all over the NFL the last few years & explained by the analysts. If the pressure doesn't get there, this is easy-peasy for any NFL QB.

You can chuck pop them in the pads and re direct, you can't hold or pull their jersey, press coverage is that. You can't body slam like Browner used to do, you can't hook and elbow clinch a hidden hold technique like Sherman was good at.

You're still not stopping the receiver from going 1 way or the other is the point I'm making. I suppose you could make the arguement to re-direct him outside because that is a little bit harder throw, but still easy by NFL QB standards.

Think of timing, you chuck and re direct the receiver has to regain balance and then get to his spot, you have 5 yards to manipulate the Receiver, the QB has like 3 seconds and where they were at on the field and a Blitz happening that window closes fast. Wentz would be flushed and have to throw to someone else or across his body.
 

LTH

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Fade":2gz1aw4a said:
LTH":2gz1aw4a said:
Fade":2gz1aw4a said:
Tre Flowers played okay today. The Colts shockingly didn't target him very often.


But I have a question on the TD he gave up.

It was Man Zero. Tre played outside leverage having no help inside, he had no chance on that play.

So was he coached to do that, or was it him? It seems you would want to play inside out and use the boundary when on an island with zero safety help.

I thought it was a busted coverage that was my initial reaction.. he should have had safety help... but then I have no idea what was called...


LTH

We'll need someone who has more inside info and access that covers the team like the Maven, to find out on this specific play, I hope it gets brought up during the week.

Well what was your impression?

LTH
 

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chris98251":yzc90gdi said:
Hockey Guy":yzc90gdi said:
chris98251":yzc90gdi said:
Hockey Guy":yzc90gdi said:
The receivers, by the rules, are allowed to get off the line pretty clean nowadays. The DB can possibly take away 1 direction but if the QB & WR are on the same page he just goes the other way for an easy TD if the throw is on target. We've seen lots of examples of this all over the NFL the last few years & explained by the analysts. If the pressure doesn't get there, this is easy-peasy for any NFL QB.

You can chuck pop them in the pads and re direct, you can't hold or pull their jersey, press coverage is that. You can't body slam like Browner used to do, you can't hook and elbow clinch a hidden hold technique like Sherman was good at.

You're still not stopping the receiver from going 1 way or the other is the point I'm making. I suppose you could make the arguement to re-direct him outside because that is a little bit harder throw, but still easy by NFL QB standards.

Think of timing, you chuck and re direct the receiver has to regain balance and then get to his spot, you have 5 yards to manipulate the Receiver, the QB has like 3 seconds and where they were at on the field and a Blitz happening that window closes fast. Wentz would be flushed and have to throw to someone else or across his body.

Huh. I already acknowledged it might have been better to direct the receiver outside. What more do you want me to do? They're both easy TD's for every NFL QB without the pressure getting there & it wasn't close.

You're acting like the defender holds all the cards & can somehow "manipulate" the receiver to their whim getting the QB to hold the ball for this magical 3 seconds but I'm fairly sure the receiver has something to say & do about it.

I'm not a Tre fan but we don't even know if there was supposed to be inside help but sure, let's fire him into the sun.

Is that better?
 

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If it was a man zero coverage you' d think that the mike would of started the play by taking a step back and helping out with the coverage plan. But then again his responsibility could of been coving a RB. It was a weird play though.
 
OP
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Fade

Fade

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Seattle Person":1ovf9uta said:
Re-watching the play it seemed like a blown coverage. Both CBs were playing off and it looked like a semi cover 3 with man principles pre snap. Flowers came down late to press the WR and played with outside leverage as if he expecting help inside. Reed played off because he was on the outer hash and there were 2 WRs to that side. Blair played under and Reed played high to avoid a rub.

Here is what we don't know. Post-snap, Jamal Adams was sitting right in the middle as if he was playing as a spy. Reed/Blair plastered to their guys which to my untrained eyes signals man-to-man. Adams showed no indications of zone help. His eyes were on Wentz the whole time, which tells me that he was spying the whole way.

So maybe Tre thought they changed the play and he was suppose to funnel the WR inside, which he did. Adams was in that alignment and but had come down too much and It was too late at that point. So...either Adams blew the coverage or Flowers blew the coverage. That's what it looked like to me.

Thank you for the knowledgeable reply.

I think you have it right. It looks like a miscommunication. They probably had a check called based on the formation. Flowers got mixed up, or possibly Adams was just roaming, doing his own thing, and it made Flowers look bad.

Please post more on .NET in the future. :2thumbs:
 

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Hockey Guy":lgq0xwsd said:
chris98251":lgq0xwsd said:
Hockey Guy":lgq0xwsd said:
chris98251":lgq0xwsd said:
You can chuck pop them in the pads and re direct, you can't hold or pull their jersey, press coverage is that. You can't body slam like Browner used to do, you can't hook and elbow clinch a hidden hold technique like Sherman was good at.

You're still not stopping the receiver from going 1 way or the other is the point I'm making. I suppose you could make the arguement to re-direct him outside because that is a little bit harder throw, but still easy by NFL QB standards.

Think of timing, you chuck and re direct the receiver has to regain balance and then get to his spot, you have 5 yards to manipulate the Receiver, the QB has like 3 seconds and where they were at on the field and a Blitz happening that window closes fast. Wentz would be flushed and have to throw to someone else or across his body.

Huh. I already acknowledged it might have been better to direct the receiver outside. What more do you want me to do? They're both easy TD's for every NFL QB without the pressure getting there & it wasn't close.

You're acting like the defender holds all the cards & can somehow "manipulate" the receiver to their whim getting the QB to hold the ball for this magical 3 seconds but I'm fairly sure the receiver has something to say & do about it.

I'm not a Tre fan but we don't even know if there was supposed to be inside help but sure, let's fire him into the sun.

Is that better?

Flowers got there late from what I saw, he could have jammed or rode him laterally inside also, he let him go uncontested is the whole issue.
 

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Agreed with the OP. Flowers had a nice ball game. He isn't perfect but even on the ones he gives up he's normally all over the dude with sticky coverage.
 

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Other than some really soft coverage by the secondary in the first half, they played a solid game. Including Flowers. And I'm one that would love to have seen them let him walk. I hope to continue to be wrong about the guy. It means the team is better.
 
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