The hits keep coming for USC

sc85sis

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I posted at FightOn247 earlier today that the NCAA was trying to sentence USC to death by a thousand cuts. We suffered some more cuts today.

http://www.usctrojans.com/blog/2013/10/ ... tes-2.html

We are truly nearing the point where we may struggle to field a team. Guys are playing hurt. Young guys who aren't physically developed are playing (hello o-line) because we don't have anyone else.

Nice to know the NCAA has the welfare of its student-athletes in mind... </sarcasm>
 

Thunderhawk

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CALIHAWK1":22a9m0iv said:
They only tool 9 scholarships from Miami and gave a bunch back to Penn State. They care.
You keep posting this. You are misinformed. Miami's penalty was as follows:

9 Scholarships
2 Bowl bans
1 ACC Conference championship ban
A big reduction in recruit contact and campus visits

But more importantly 3+ years of the word "Death Penalty" attached to the Hurricane program because of the absurdly protracted NCAA investigation. For three seasons Al Golden had to convince recruits that the University would survive the investigation while other college football coaches could claim Miami was doomed. Miami lost some great talent because the NCAA criminally mishandled the inculpatory process and left us in limbo. Meanwhile Penn State's molestation conspiracy investigation was wrapped up in 18 months, despite being vastly more sinister and complex than the hijinks of a rogue booster.

If the bowl bans were forth-coming rather than previously self-imposed I think people might be less outraged. Looked at in total the program endured more than just the loss of a few scholarships.
 

CPHawk

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Hasn't it been like 4 years? Maybe SC should just move on, do you really think Kiffin would have won even with 5 more players a year?
 

Sarlacc83

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CPHawk":1sm9xqd4 said:
Hasn't it been like 4 years? Maybe SC should just move on, do you really think Kiffin would have won even with 5 more players a year?

Considering the miscarriage of justice, I don't blame USC fans for getting pissed.
 

Subzero717

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Thunderhawk":75ark3w9 said:
CALIHAWK1":75ark3w9 said:
They only tool 9 scholarships from Miami and gave a bunch back to Penn State. They care.
You keep posting this. You are misinformed. Miami's penalty was as follows:

9 Scholarships
2 Bowl bans
1 ACC Conference championship ban
A big reduction in recruit contact and campus visits

But more importantly 3+ years of the word "Death Penalty" attached to the Hurricane program because of the absurdly protracted NCAA investigation. For three seasons Al Golden had to convince recruits that the University would survive the investigation while other college football coaches could claim Miami was doomed. Miami lost some great talent because the NCAA criminally mishandled the inculpatory process and left us in limbo. Meanwhile Penn State's molestation conspiracy investigation was wrapped up in 18 months, despite being vastly more sinister and complex than the hijinks of a rogue booster.

If the bowl bans were forth-coming rather than previously self-imposed I think people might be less outraged. Looked at in total the program endured more than just the loss of a few scholarships.

I haven't read an in depth article on it. Thats just what the headline was. My main point is it is next to nothing compared to what SC got and to my knowledge the NCAA couldn't produce a shred of evidence that the University had any knowledge. We are also talking about one kids parents way off campus.
 

CPHawk

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Sarlacc83":2a7bpezg said:
CPHawk":2a7bpezg said:
Hasn't it been like 4 years? Maybe SC should just move on, do you really think Kiffin would have won even with 5 more players a year?

Considering the miscarriage of justice, I don't blame USC fans for getting pissed.


They still have more talent across the board, than any other team in the conference. They can be mad all they want, the fact remains coaching is the issue down in LA, not lack of scholarships. Mike Riley would have won 10-12 games every year with the roster as it is right now.
 

seahawk2k

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USC received comparable penalties to the equally dubious sanctions UW received in the early 90's. Four years after the fact UW fielded an absurdly talented team but was ultimately done in by a rash of injuries. UW was unable to build quality depth to the scholarship sanctions. Same thing happened to USC. The limited scholarships puts a premium on talent evaluation, you miss on one kid you are screwed. Funny how these punishments only seemed to take place on west coast teams...
 
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sc85sis

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The reason USC fans are upset is as follows:

HOOPS
One player (OJ Mayo) was investigated by USC with assistance from, I believe, both the Pac-10 and the NCAA prior to enrolling at USC to ensure he was eligible without any recruiting issues. After being cleared, he played for a year and then left for the NBA. USC was later penalized for recruiting violations (in spite of the earlier investigation and clearance) and for the player receiving extra benefits. The basketball team self-sanctioned and those sanctions were accepted by the NCAA.

WOMEN'S TENNIS
One player from Europe (don't know her name) took an athletic department credit card and made multiple calls home over a several-month period. The team self-sanctioned for this extra benefits violation; those penalties were accepted by the NCAA.

FOOTBALL
One football player (Reggie Bush) and his parents took extra benefits for a year (or slightly over--the actual date the extra-benefits started was disputed) from 2 would-be marketers who were not affiliated with USC and who were located in San Diego, over 100 miles away from campus. There was no evidence that USC was aware of this, with the possible exception of one assistant coach (Todd McNair). That coach received a one-year "show cause" penalty because the NCAA decided he "should have known" what had occurred by learning it after the fact. Their basis for that decision was a single photo taken in a public place and a late-night phone call. When the coach was asked about the phone call, the NCAA gave him the wrong date and never corrected this mistake. Their primary "witness" was one of the 2 men in San Diego (an ex-con) who was in the midst of suing Reggie.

Coach McNair is suing the NCAA for the lost income and loss of reputation (he was unemployed for 2-3 years). The judge in the court case gave an initial ruling that emails obtained from the NCAA show malice towards McNair and are reason for the case to proceed and the emails to be publicly released. The NCAA is appealing that ruling. The LA Times (and I think one of the other LA papers) have also filed FOIA requests to see the emails.

Bush also did an internship his junior year (with Mike Ornstein) which the NCAA ruled an extra benefit because it wasn't an internship widely available to general students. They also declared Ornstein was a booster even though he had no previous relationship with USC.

Pete's brief hiring of a long-time (and recently unemployed) friend to consult on ST was deemed an extra coach and a secondary violation. The NCAA then switched it to a major violation and rolled it into the LOIC charge.

Recruiting dinners at Papadakis Taverna were deemed violations because the owner is a former USC football player and had addressed the recruits. This violation had already been addressed previously by the NCAA when they decided to throw it in to boost their charge of LOIC.

USC did not self-sanction the football team because they felt they could not have known what was happening with Reggie. I think they also disputed the ruling that Ornstein was a booster, though I can't say for certain. As mentioned, the extra coach and the Papadakis Taverna issues were supposed to be minor and previously addressed. According to what I've read, which may or may not be true, the NCAA has previously held that penalties cannot not be assessed in cases where there is no way for a school to know violations were occurring.

USC was lauded for their compliance education of their athletes. The report also stated that the school fully cooperated with the NCAA investigation.

USC waited over four years for the sanctions to be announced. Rumor has it that the NCAA was trying to wait for the results of Reggie Bush's court cases with the 2 San Diego guys so they could grab the sworn testimony (sound familiar?). The cases were settled out of court, however.

When the sanctions were finally handed down, Paul Dee made the now infamous statement about high-profile athletes needing high-profile compliance/monitoring. That standard is not spelled out in any NCAA rule and was literally made up by Dee and the rest of the Committee on Infractions. It wasn't applied prior to the USC case and has never been used since. Dee also stated that the open atmosphere at USC was "troubling" (open practices, etc.) even though none of that had contributed to any of the violations. The COI included a member from Notre Dame, one of USC's primary rivals and a team that hadn't beaten USC in several years, as well as someone from Nebraska, a team USC had embarrassed twice in home-and-home games in recent years. The Notre Dame representative only recused herself from the discussion about a possible TV ban. Chairman Paul Dee was the AD at Miami during the time when several infractions had occurred (or were occurring) at that school.

After rolling everything they could find into LOIC, and already accepting the self-sanctions for the basketball and women's tennis teams, the NCAA vacated UCS's BCS Championship (Orange Bowl) and all games from the 2005-2006 season. They declared a two-year bowl ban (which ended up including USC being banned by the PAC-12 from participating in the 2010 P12 Championship even though their rules do NOT preclude it), loss of 10 scholarships a year for 3 years (30 total) AND a cap on the total number of scholarships per year from 85 to 75, "free agency" for 2 years that allowed juniors and seniors to leave without penalty, and probation through 2014. USC returned the crystal ball trophy and their copy of Reggie's Heisman trophy. Reggie ultimately also returned his Heisman, and he has been disassociated from USC by NCAA decree.

All of that for ONE guy.

Tell me how Miami's sanctions are harsh by comparison when their infractions involved a major booster paying recruits and players with full knowledge of multiple people for nearly a decade?
 
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sc85sis

sc85sis

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CPHawk":r5hautvo said:
They still have more talent across the board, than any other team in the conference. They can be mad all they want, the fact remains coaching is the issue down in LA, not lack of scholarships. Mike Riley would have won 10-12 games every year with the roster as it is right now.

USC had fewer than 60 scholarship players at the ND game, 14 of whom could not participate or were injured in practice in the last couple of days. Some should be OK by Saturday, but we are seriously hurting right now. Many of the kids who are playing should have been redshirted to give them time to physically mature. It's just not an option.

USC had four years of negative recruiting before the sanctions even came down. We only took 18-19 guys for several classes at the end of Pete's tenure.

Yes we have talent, but not nearly as much as people think. O-line and CBs in particular are really thin.

Thunderhawk is right on with how the threat of a death penalty for several years can affect a team. It definitely has hurt USC.
 

Sarlacc83

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CPHawk":192wgzgy said:
Sarlacc83":192wgzgy said:
CPHawk":192wgzgy said:
Hasn't it been like 4 years? Maybe SC should just move on, do you really think Kiffin would have won even with 5 more players a year?

Considering the miscarriage of justice, I don't blame USC fans for getting pissed.


They still have more talent across the board, than any other team in the conference. They can be mad all they want, the fact remains coaching is the issue down in LA, not lack of scholarships. Mike Riley would have won 10-12 games every year with the roster as it is right now.

It's still clear, then, that you don't understand the basis of the gripe which is harsher treatment for a lesser 'crime' than was handed to other Universities. It's not hard to fathom. Really.
 

drrew

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Karma is a mother effer.

Had the LA Times and USC boosters not been behind the out of whack sanctions handed down to the University of Washington in 92/93, I might feel a little bad for USC, unfortunately, USC was behind the effort pressing the conference to sanction UW at a harsher level than the NCAA, so USC gets what it had coming to them.

I could give a damn that schools such as Auburn, Miami, Ohio State, and North Carolina got relatively small slaps on the wrist as compared to USC. When you try to eff someone, or something, over in life, prepare for it the favor to be returned sometime down the line.
 

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Give credit it where credit is due though, the driving force behind the sanctions and investigation with their laughable brand of smearing journalism was The Seattle Times. Until that paper and all of its anti-sports bs is gone, karma hasn't done its full work.

Nearly a decade after the UW sanctions, UW wins the Rose Bowl, and bam, here is an expose accusing the Seattle DA's office of cover ups and the UW football team to be riddled with criminal murderous raping thugs.
 
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sc85sis

sc85sis

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I think the LA Times played a big role with a lot of whacky stories run. I wasn't on the west coast then, so I don't know a lot about what occurred then.

Washington definitely got hosed, but two wrongs don't make a right. I also don't believe kids who had nothing to do with either the UW or USC mess should have to suffer.
 

drrew

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Here are a couple background articles on the role that the LA Times played in the UW sanctions:

http://www.4malamute.com/Tabloid_Times.html
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/5808 ... ncaas-hand

The publisher, editor, and sports editor of the LA Times at that point were prominent USC boosters and had just watched Don James turn the UW into a national power with a number or prominent LA based recruits.

The University of Washington has never, and may never recover, if USC spends a few years in the toilet as penance, then so be it.
 
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sc85sis

sc85sis

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drrew":2f1mo660 said:
Here are a couple background articles on the role that the LA Times played in the UW sanctions:

http://www.4malamute.com/Tabloid_Times.html
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/5808 ... ncaas-hand

The publisher, editor, and sports editor of the LA Times at that point were prominent USC boosters and had just watched Don James turn the UW into a national power with a number or prominent LA based recruits.

The University of Washington has never, and may never recover, if USC spends a few years in the toilet as penance, then so be it.

It's not just about the win/loss record. Two to three more guys have just gone down with serious injuries. They're playing too long, before they're ready, etc., because we don't have the numbers.
 

HawkWow

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Only Sark can help SC now.

Miami? About damn time. That's a program that has taken cheating to an entirely new level and has done so, with just minor abrasions, for the past 30+ years. When the coaches not only encourage their players to cheat, but actually help them to cheat and steal (Pell grants), that's a problem program. Good riddance U.

I'm so embarrassed for the USC program, I just can't pile on them at this time. I actually hope for their recovery and already miss their patented arrogance. Seriously.
 

CPHawk

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Here is what people forget, sc was already on probation when the bush stuff came up. Then Garrett all but gave the finger to the NCAA rather than working with them. It's been shown, if Garrett pulls his head out and kisses the NCAA ass, they wouldn't have gotten anything worse than just loss of scholarships.
 

Thunderhawk

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HawkWow":3jcso72o said:
Only Sark can help SC now.

Miami? About damn time. That's a program that has taken cheating to an entirely new level and has done so, with just minor abrasions, for the past 30+ years. When the coaches not only encourage their players to cheat, but actually help them to cheat and steal (Pell grants), that's a problem program. Good riddance U.

I'm so embarrassed for the USC program, I just can't pile on them at this time. I actually hope for their recovery and already miss their patented arrogance. Seriously.
Dude, you are clearly the biggest troll on .NET. I love your posts but they are wildly over the top...

Care to elaborate on all this cheating Miami has done over the years? Maybe you could also provide some context by comparing the U to other colleges and their "cheating" problems.

Miami has been great because Miami is in Miami. South Florida athletes are perhaps the best football players in the world and stock the very best programs throughout the country. When the Hurricanes were dominant they had the pick of the litter of these athletes and that is what made them great - not cheating. They never had to cheat when they had players like Warren Sapp, Ed Reed, Michael Irvin, Clinton Portis, Frank Gore, Andre Johnson, Ray Lewis, Dan Morgan, Jim Kelly, Sean Taylor, Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne and like 30 other first round picks since 1983.

As far as USC, I feel for them. Ascribing a collective penalty due to the actions of a couple knuckleheads is unjust. While the NCAA was investigating Miami one of their lawyers unethically obtained evidence. It compromised about 20% of the investigation. So, obviously, by the NCAA's own logic the entire NCAA should be penalized due to their "loss of institutional control".

The Boz had it right when he wore that t-shirt all those years ago. NCAA = National Communists Against Athletes.
 

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