The hardest take about this team

[Maelstrom787]

I posted the following in a game day thread. It's a thought about how we, as fans, will never have access to the type of information or background that we'd need to actually grasp the exact nature of why each decision is made the way it's made.

Here's another example of how we're unable, as fans, to consider every angle. I'll make it fairly rudimentary for brevity's sake.

Say that, in film preparation, Waldron identifies that an opposing safety is prone to biting on an underneath crossing route to take it away. He may decide, therefore, to call a couple of crossing routes that are ultimately unsuccessful.

This'd piss us off, because we'd say "Hey, Waldron, that shit isn't working. Dumbass." His goal, in this case, wouldn't be to simply call a successful play. It'd be to set up a shot later where the offense can take advantage of that tendency. Start by reinforcing the thought in that opponents mind that the tendency is correct, and then dial up a shot that earns a gain off of the safety biting.

That would be context we don't have that exemplifies rational thought behind the playcalls we may deem unimaginative or ill-conceived.

My issue is on a macro level, and this isn't a defense of him, per se - but it's not going to be as simple as "we have dumbass idiots, and other people are not dumbass idiots."

I try to acknowledge this in my posts, outside of the gameday forum. The amount of high-level nuance that goes into this is frankly impossible to imagine. This is why I don't like easy answers like "Pete's dictating all of this" or "There is only one issue with this team and it's -insert coach-." Occam's razor is not an applicable thought principle when your inside knowledge is as limited as that of a fan.

Football organizations are leviathans.

That is the hardest take to swallow about this franchise, and football as a whole. Why? Because it's god damned unsatisfying.

As human beings, the vast majority of us know what it's like to deal with red tape, usually in a professional setting. We hate being prevented from doing what we want to do, and usually decry such obstacles as excessive and infuriating. The reasonable, hard truth is that in the vast majority of cases, there is logic behind why we have to jump through hoops, and that the ideal course of action generally isn't to wholesale tear down everything on whims.

The hardest take is that the guys we're shitting on are extremely gifted professionals. We do not know more than them, and our opinions (as touched on in the quote above) are only what they are because we can only base it off of what we see. Thing is, we only see result. We see it all in a vacuum.

Is Shane Waldron an idiot? No. Were Tom Cable or Darrell Bevell idiots? No. Is Clint Hurtt an idiot? No. Is Pete Carroll an idiot? Especially no, seeing as he's one of the most successful coaches that has lived. Most want him overthrown and beheaded at this point, and he's still above 500. You don't get there by being an idiot.


So, what does that mean? That the following statements are almost irrefutably true, despite them being desperately unsatisfying.

• Shane isn't actually the only issue, and yes, he does know that the splits aren't ideal and what the weak points of the offense are.
• Clint Hurtt knows the deep-dive in-and-outs of defense, and isn't simply refusing to coach good defense.
• Pete Carroll isn't dictating every single playcall/concept/plan his offensive coordinator wants to pursue.
• Geno Smith didn't forget how to see receivers after last season, and his issues likely have an indeterminate root cause more complicated than "huh, he turned bad."

What can also be true?

• There are deep, systemic issues with the playcalling on offense born out of a culmination of indeterminate missteps in implementation, available concepts, etc.
• Pete bears ultimate culpability for most of these issues as the head executive of the Seattle Seahawks.
• Geno Smith is not the optimal option at quarterback if we want to pursue a championship.

There aren't going to be easy answers (available to US) as to why this is happening. All we can really nail down is what is happening, not why.

This game is an infinitely complex leviathan, comprised of an unknowable amount of moving parts. We can have desired directions forward for the franchise and that's good and fair, but we can't pretend that there are simple answers (or simple, whole solutions) behind the why of it all.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Good post. Kearly used to say, "Your first impression of anything in football is probably wrong."

Happened to me today, I thought that too many deep shots were being called in the first half, but I checked the game logs and there were a lot of short (<15 yards) passes being called as well.

It's like criticizing a video game's development story - people are usually right that the game is being mishandled, but that's all they're right about. They don't know anywhere near the whole story and it probably wouldn't be emotionally satisfying if they did.

 

[cymatica]

Nah, Waldron is a dumbass. The 4th down play that has the screenshots posted with the middle wide open and everyone at the boundaries was idiotic. His tendency to abandon the run is a reoccurring theme. The throw to run ratio is higher than anyone else, even the teams with better olines and QBs. He sucks as a play caller plain and simple

 

[OneLofaTatupu]

I posted the following in a game day thread. It's a thought about how we, as fans, will never have access to the type of information or background that we'd need to actually grasp the exact nature of why each decision is made the way it's made.



That is the hardest take to swallow about this franchise, and football as a whole. Why? Because it's god damned unsatisfying.

As human beings, the vast majority of us know what it's like to deal with red tape, usually in a professional setting. We hate being prevented from doing what we want to do, and usually decry such obstacles as excessive and infuriating. The reasonable, hard truth is that in the vast majority of cases, there is logic behind why we have to jump through hoops, and that the ideal course of action generally isn't to wholesale tear down everything on whims.

The hardest take is that the guys we're shitting on are extremely gifted professionals. We do not know more than them, and our opinions (as touched on in the quote above) are only what they are because we can only base it off of what we see. Thing is, we only see result. We see it all in a vacuum.

Is Shane Waldron an idiot? No. Were Tom Cable or Darrell Bevell idiots? No. Is Clint Hurtt an idiot? No. Is Pete Carroll an idiot? Especially no, seeing as he's one of the most successful coaches that has lived. Most want him overthrown and beheaded at this point, and he's still above 500. You don't get there by being an idiot.


So, what does that mean? That the following statements are almost irrefutably true, despite them being desperately unsatisfying.

• Shane isn't actually the only issue, and yes, he does know that the splits aren't ideal and what the weak points of the offense are.
• Clint Hurtt knows the deep-dive in-and-outs of defense, and isn't simply refusing to coach good defense.
• Pete Carroll isn't dictating every single playcall/concept/plan his offensive coordinator wants to pursue.
• Geno Smith didn't forget how to see receivers after last season, and his issues likely have an indeterminate root cause more complicated than "huh, he turned bad."

What can also be true?

• There are deep, systemic issues with the playcalling on offense born out of a culmination of indeterminate missteps in implementation, available concepts, etc.
• Pete bears ultimate culpability for most of these issues as the head executive of the Seattle Seahawks.
• Geno Smith is not the optimal option at quarterback if we want to pursue a championship.

There aren't going to be easy answers (available to US) as to why this is happening. All we can really nail down is what is happening, not why.

This game is an infinitely complex leviathan, comprised of an unknowable amount of moving parts. We can have desired directions forward for the franchise and that's good and fair, but we can't pretend that there are simple answers (or simple, whole solutions) behind the why of it all.

View attachment 62070

I have the one and only solution. Televise pickle ball. I’ve never played and have no desire but it is either this or online kung fu classes. I am at a crossroads.

 

[JPatera76]

100% Solid Post

 

[Maelstrom787]

Nah, Waldron is a dumbass.

I want him fired yesterday, but it just... isn't that. He's just ineffective.

 

[olyfan63]

I want him fired yesterday, but it just... isn't that. He's just ineffective.

Yes, it's hard to know why, on 3rd and 5, Geno did a 7-step (or whatever) dropback, held the ball for 5 seconds, and got sacked, vs an obvious all-out-blitz by the 49ers. We only needed 5 yards, not 15. Why not some quick-hitter routes in the concept, e.g., slants, etc. or is the problem that they quick hitters ARE there and Geno simply ignores/misses them trying for the kill shot instead of playing smart situational football? Which leads back to... Is it Waldron, or Geno that sucks?

Keeping in mind that both Bevel and Schottenheimer look much better as OCs, in hindsight, now that we know the limitations and patterns they were dealing with in Russell.

My bias, Geno vs Waldron, is that other teams have figured Geno out, and how to frustrate him, and Waldron hasn't been able to scheme around it.

 

[renofox]

I posted the following in a game day thread. It's a thought about how we, as fans, will never have access to the type of information or background that we'd need to actually grasp the exact nature of why each decision is made the way it's made.



That is the hardest take to swallow about this franchise, and football as a whole. Why? Because it's god damned unsatisfying.

As human beings, the vast majority of us know what it's like to deal with red tape, usually in a professional setting. We hate being prevented from doing what we want to do, and usually decry such obstacles as excessive and infuriating. The reasonable, hard truth is that in the vast majority of cases, there is logic behind why we have to jump through hoops, and that the ideal course of action generally isn't to wholesale tear down everything on whims.

The hardest take is that the guys we're shitting on are extremely gifted professionals. We do not know more than them, and our opinions (as touched on in the quote above) are only what they are because we can only base it off of what we see. Thing is, we only see result. We see it all in a vacuum.

Is Shane Waldron an idiot? No. Were Tom Cable or Darrell Bevell idiots? No. Is Clint Hurtt an idiot? No. Is Pete Carroll an idiot? Especially no, seeing as he's one of the most successful coaches that has lived. Most want him overthrown and beheaded at this point, and he's still above 500. You don't get there by being an idiot.


So, what does that mean? That the following statements are almost irrefutably true, despite them being desperately unsatisfying.

• Shane isn't actually the only issue, and yes, he does know that the splits aren't ideal and what the weak points of the offense are.
• Clint Hurtt knows the deep-dive in-and-outs of defense, and isn't simply refusing to coach good defense.
• Pete Carroll isn't dictating every single playcall/concept/plan his offensive coordinator wants to pursue.
• Geno Smith didn't forget how to see receivers after last season, and his issues likely have an indeterminate root cause more complicated than "huh, he turned bad."

What can also be true?

• There are deep, systemic issues with the playcalling on offense born out of a culmination of indeterminate missteps in implementation, available concepts, etc.
• Pete bears ultimate culpability for most of these issues as the head executive of the Seattle Seahawks.
• Geno Smith is not the optimal option at quarterback if we want to pursue a championship.

There aren't going to be easy answers (available to US) as to why this is happening. All we can really nail down is what is happening, not why.

This game is an infinitely complex leviathan, comprised of an unknowable amount of moving parts. We can have desired directions forward for the franchise and that's good and fair, but we can't pretend that there are simple answers (or simple, whole solutions) behind the why of it all.

View attachment 62072

Very good post. I'm not trying to minimize it when I:

tldr; it is impossible to know why they suck. All we know is that the result is, indeed, pure suckitude.

 

[oldhawkfan]

I posted the following in a game day thread. It's a thought about how we, as fans, will never have access to the type of information or background that we'd need to actually grasp the exact nature of why each decision is made the way it's made.



That is the hardest take to swallow about this franchise, and football as a whole. Why? Because it's god damned unsatisfying.

As human beings, the vast majority of us know what it's like to deal with red tape, usually in a professional setting. We hate being prevented from doing what we want to do, and usually decry such obstacles as excessive and infuriating. The reasonable, hard truth is that in the vast majority of cases, there is logic behind why we have to jump through hoops, and that the ideal course of action generally isn't to wholesale tear down everything on whims.

The hardest take is that the guys we're shitting on are extremely gifted professionals. We do not know more than them, and our opinions (as touched on in the quote above) are only what they are because we can only base it off of what we see. Thing is, we only see result. We see it all in a vacuum.

Is Shane Waldron an idiot? No. Were Tom Cable or Darrell Bevell idiots? No. Is Clint Hurtt an idiot? No. Is Pete Carroll an idiot? Especially no, seeing as he's one of the most successful coaches that has lived. Most want him overthrown and beheaded at this point, and he's still above 500. You don't get there by being an idiot.


So, what does that mean? That the following statements are almost irrefutably true, despite them being desperately unsatisfying.

• Shane isn't actually the only issue, and yes, he does know that the splits aren't ideal and what the weak points of the offense are.
• Clint Hurtt knows the deep-dive in-and-outs of defense, and isn't simply refusing to coach good defense.
• Pete Carroll isn't dictating every single playcall/concept/plan his offensive coordinator wants to pursue.
• Geno Smith didn't forget how to see receivers after last season, and his issues likely have an indeterminate root cause more complicated than "huh, he turned bad."

What can also be true?

• There are deep, systemic issues with the playcalling on offense born out of a culmination of indeterminate missteps in implementation, available concepts, etc.
• Pete bears ultimate culpability for most of these issues as the head executive of the Seattle Seahawks.
• Geno Smith is not the optimal option at quarterback if we want to pursue a championship.

There aren't going to be easy answers (available to US) as to why this is happening. All we can really nail down is what is happening, not why.

This game is an infinitely complex leviathan, comprised of an unknowable amount of moving parts. We can have desired directions forward for the franchise and that's good and fair, but we can't pretend that there are simple answers (or simple, whole solutions) behind the why of it all.

View attachment 62072

This is a great post. You forgot one thing regarding yesterday’s game. The 49ers are a really good team. They are a better team than the Seahawks. Sometimes you just have to admit that you got beat by a better team.