Stolen signals?

[olyfan63]

Thinking over the 'Hawks last offensive play of SB49, and while I have to admire the key individual plays made by 3 Patriots on that play, I'm still left wondering how the Patriot DBs knew so clearly and convincingly *exactly* what was coming, with enough confidence to "bet the farm" on it, and have that guess turn out to be right.

Can someone share info that puts the "stolen signals" theory to rest? The hard part is that the Patriots and Belichick have done that specific thing in the past, i.e., there is a precedent.

Browner knew exactly what was coming, and prevented Kearse from getting off the line and using him in the pick action. (That was the dumbest part of the playcall, relying on Kearse to out-physical Browner; a bad matchup) And then Butler also sold out 100%, anticipated the route, and jumped it and got the pick. I keep getting stuck on the sheer odds of the Patriots guessing right and then executing so perfectly. Of course, One could say the same thing about our NFCCG win against the Packers, and everything that went our way at the right time on that.

How did Bevell/Carroll communicate the play call to Wilson on that play, and are there factors in that method which clearly rule out any factor other than the Patriots simply "guessing right" based on thorough scouting and player recognition?

I'm hesitant to give any weight to after-the-fact stuff like Butler's interview statements about how they practiced that and Belichick made him repeat the play until they got it right. That type of interview stuff could be "coached" after the fact.

My hope is that there's some clear factor that puts this whole idea to rest.

P.S. The 3 Patriots that made key plays were #1 Browner, #2 Butler, and #3 Hightower, in order of importance. Browner defeating Kearse's attempted pick was the #1 key. We all know how Butler did it. It's also clear that #54, Hightower, influenced Lockette to not be so "strong to the ball". Lockette saw #54 Hightower coming to blow him up, but didn't see Butler.

 

[BillBelichick]

My hope is that there's some clear factor that puts this whole idea to rest.

Can you give some hypothetical examples of what would "put the idea to rest?"

 

[olyfan63]

My hope is that there's some clear factor that puts this whole idea to rest.

Can you give some hypothetical examples of what would "put the idea to rest?"

Yes, and great board handle for answering this!

For one, that the playcall was conveyed from Bevell to Wilson in such a way that it couldn't have been intercepted. Essentially, things that would make it logistically impossible for the the Patriots to have intercepted the playcall and then relayed it to Browner and Butler, within the time constraints of the play.

For two, maybe someone has All-22 that didn't cut away, that could show a clear timeline for this that would demonstrate the impossibility of this happening.

 

[CANHawk]

Dude just stop. Nobody stole any signals. To even mutter as much just makes us look wack. They won, we lost, stop looking for cockameme ways to rationalize it. Its a football game, sometimes shit just happens...

 

[Sports Hernia]

I think it's as simple as Browner seeing it in practice with the Hawks in the previous seasons, and recognizing the formation.
It was a beyond stupid play call! No spying, no conspiracy (even as much as I think the Pats are cheaters) it was a piss poor play call, it's a simple as that IMHO.

 

[olyfan63]

Dude just stop. Nobody stole any signals. To even mutter as much just makes us look wack. They won, we lost, stop looking for cockameme ways to rationalize it. Its a football game, sometimes shit just happens...

It's a sincere question, looking for a football answer. Sports Hernia gave a football answer.
It would be great to have logistical/technical confirmation of why this couldn't be the case.

 

[BillBelichick]

My hope is that there's some clear factor that puts this whole idea to rest.

Can you give some hypothetical examples of what would "put the idea to rest?"

Yes, and great board handle for answering this!

For one, that the playcall was conveyed from Bevell to Wilson in such a way that it couldn't have been intercepted. Essentially, things that would make it logistically impossible for the the Patriots to have intercepted the playcall and then relayed it to Browner and Butler, within the time constraints of the play.

For two, maybe someone has All-22 that didn't cut away, that could show a clear timeline for this that would demonstrate the impossibility of this happening.

Can you provide this evidence for Lane interception of Brady?

It just seems really ridiculous...but I guess that's one of the cornerstones of conspiracy theories. They don't exist there's no way to disprove them.

And they live on...

 

[olyfan63]

Can you provide this evidence for Lane interception of Brady?

It just seems really ridiculous...but I guess that's one of the cornerstones of conspiracy theories. They don't exist there's no way to disprove them.

And they live on...

Why change the subject? Can't you provide a FOOTBALL ANSWER?
I'm sure you can find your own breakdown of Lane's pick of Brady. That's irrelevant here. Wagner's pick too.
And of course this is only a question because of Belichick's past, specifically in stealing signals.
Do you have something more substantial than trying to change the subject?

And why immediately say, "there's no way to disprove them", without first attempting to find some reasonable basis in data to show that it couldn't be true. On that play, what's the timeline, what's the technology involved, for communicating the call from Bevell to Wilson, the timeframes involved, and then for communicating an "intercepted signal" to Browner and Butler, that would show that it would be a near-impossibility to do, in the game situation? Simply show the factors that would make it impossible or near-impossible.

 

[irocdave]

If the play was "intercepted", why did the Pats have a goal line package in? Even if they knew the play, by what ever means, most of us know what the play should have been and we all know there was NFW the Pats were going to stop even if they had the correct personnel on the field. The Pats knew they weren't going to stop, we all saw the same thing, Brady with his head in his hands and Bill all sour puss faced knowing he was going to be on the wrong end of a SB again.

Congrats to the Pats and Pats fans, but that team and it's fan base know what should have happened.

 

[HawKnPeppa]

Can you provide this evidence for Lane interception of Brady?

It just seems really ridiculous...but I guess that's one of the cornerstones of conspiracy theories. They don't exist there's no way to disprove them.

And they live on...

Why change the subject? Can't you provide a FOOTBALL ANSWER?
I'm sure you can find your own breakdown of Lane's pick of Brady. That's irrelevant here. Wagner's pick too.
And of course this is only a question because of Belichick's past, specifically in stealing signals.
Do you have something more substantial than trying to change the subject?

Why does anybody owe a 'football answer' to a conspiracy thread? How about a 'football subject' rather than something base upon conjecture imparted by denial? Quite the hypocritical approach to expect grounded answer when the thread kicks off with borderline lunacy.

 

[olyfan63]

If the play was "intercepted", why did the Pats have a goal line package in? Even if they knew the play, by what ever means, most of us know what the play should have been and we all know there was NFW the Pats were going to stop even if they had the correct personnel on the field. The Pats knew they weren't going to stop, we all saw the same thing, Brady with his head in his hands and Bill all sour puss faced knowing he was going to be on the wrong end of a SB again.

Congrats to the Pats and Pats fans, but that team and it's fan base know what should have happened.

Why does anybody owe a 'football answer' to a conspiracy thread? How about a 'football subject' rather than something base upon conjecture imparted by denial? Quite the hypocritical approach to expect grounded answer when the thread kicks off with borderline lunacy.

Thank you irocdave for a football answer. That's a good data point. If the call had been intercepted, Belichick might have chosen a different personnel group. Also, Browner would know the Seattle offensive route concepts from seeing them in practice over and over.

So far nobody has tackled the technology and logistics breakdown part of this, but there's been plenty of name-calling.
What would have to happen, and what are the technical/logistical reasons it could not have happened, or would be extremely unlikely?

 

[Scottemojo]

This is silly.

It was a great play by Butler, they knew what was coming because the formation gave it away.

 

[olyfan63]

This is silly.

It was a great play by Butler, they knew what was coming because the formation gave it away.

Humor me. Break down what it would take to accomplish signal-stealing in the SB49 setting. Some on this board are familiar with the details of the Patriots signal stealing that they lost a draft pick for a few years back. I'm not familiar with the details of what they were busted for. The only posts I found in a search of this board didn't really break it down at all. What exactly were they busted for, what methods of stealing signals, and how is what Belichick did then no longer possible now?

If you were a coach, what countermeasures would you take to make sure the opponent isn't stealing your signals? I see coaches all the time covering their mouths to prevent lip-readers from seeing them. (For 5 years, I dated a gal who lip-read, and she was very, very good at it).

I'd like to think the coach-to-QB radio transmission technology has all kinds of security measures, but I really don't know.

If you were a former covert agent assigned to steal NFL teams signals at crucial times, how would you go about it? What would the weak links be? And, you not only have to steal them, you have to relay them to your on-field personnel for them to use against the upcoming play. Would it be an impossible assignment, and why?

 

[Scottemojo]

This is silly.

It was a great play by Butler, they knew what was coming because the formation gave it away.

Humor me. Break down what it would take to accomplish signal-stealing in the SB49 setting. Some on this board are familiar with the details of the Patriots signal stealing that they lost a draft pick for a few years back. I'm not familiar with the details of what they were busted for. The only posts I found in a search of this board didn't really break it down at all. What exactly were they busted for, what methods of stealing signals, and how is what Belichick did then no longer possible now?

If you were a coach, what countermeasures would you take to make sure the opponent isn't stealing your signals? I see coaches all the time covering their mouths to prevent lip-readers from seeing them. (For 5 years, I dated a gal who lip-read, and she was very, very good at it).

I'd like to think the coach-to-QB radio transmission technology has all kinds of security measures, but I really don't know.

If you were a former covert agent assigned to steal NFL teams signals at crucial times, how would you go about it? What would the weak links be? And, you not only have to steal them, you have to relay them to your on-field personnel for them to use against the upcoming play. Would it be an impossible assignment, and why?

I won't humor you, I find the entire subject to be silly, and most likely the product of sour grapes.

 

[jkitsune]

If you were a former covert agent assigned to steal NFL teams signals at crucial times, how would you go about it? What would the weak links be? And, you not only have to steal them, you have to relay them to your on-field personnel for them to use against the upcoming play. Would it be an impossible assignment, and why?

[/quote]

I would infiltrate the coaching ranks of the targeted team. I would then gradually earn their trust, clawing my way to the top with reliable, perhaps even record-setting performances. I would make myself the toast of the town, and then inexplicably collapse in the final quarter of the ...

Oh, my God.

Oh, my God, you guys.



DAN QUINN, WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY


edit: Edited to avoid ascribing the quote to Scottemojo.

 

[olyfan63]

Here is a GREAT view of that play, taken by a Patriots fan, directly behind Butler.

[youtube]tBu2FYDbsds[/youtube]

Link to the place in the video where "The Pick" occurs:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBu2FYD ... page#t=223

Please understand, I'm not accusing anyone of anything, and I'm 99% on the side of it was an amazing play by not 1, not 2, but 3 Patriots, factoring in #54 Hightower's contribution to making Lockette "soft". The 1% just represents stuff I don't know, and would like to know more about.

On the 1%, even if NE *did* somehow steal the signals, and relay them in real-time to their defenders, their players still had to execute, and Butler's *pick*, not breakup, but *pick*, hanging on, after running over Lockette, was a tremendous play in itself.

A similarly remarkable play was the Seahawks 4th-and-7 play against SF in the NFCCG where all 3 Seattle receivers adjusted to "Go" routes after seeing SF DL jump, and Wilson hit Kearse for the go-ahead TD. So certainly there are many precedents for such a thing.

 

[King Dog]

Please just stop.

 

[NFSeahawks]

I think I would throw up if I actually chose to watch that video.

 

[olyfan63]

If you were a former covert agent assigned to steal NFL teams signals at crucial times, how would you go about it? What would the weak links be? And, you not only have to steal them, you have to relay them to your on-field personnel for them to use against the upcoming play. Would it be an impossible assignment, and why?

I would infiltrate the coaching ranks of the targeted team. I would then gradually earn their trust, clawing my way to the top with reliable, perhaps even record-setting performances. I would make myself the toast of the town, and then inexplicably collapse in the final quarter of the ...

Oh, my God.
Oh, my God, you guys.
(JPEG snipped for space)

DAN QUINN, WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY
edit: Edited to avoid ascribing the quote to Scottemojo.

Nice try, but you'd still have to get Jeremy Lane out of the game with a broken arn, and Cliff Avril concussed. I saw the Cliff Avril head blow, and it's a quality of work that's above the pay grade of your contract agents. Not to mention, you need to make sure Kam injures his knee in the last practice before the game. Now how are you going to pull all THAT off?

Sheesh, some of you conspiracy theorists out there!

 

[olyfan63]

You know, I would seriously like to know the mechanics, technology, logistics of getting the signals in, and what it would take to steal them, and relay them in to be useful. Sort of the old Mad Magazine Spy vs. Spy cartoons.

I can see that in general there's still so much rawness over the whole thing, and seemingly endless rehashing, that those few who have the knowledge of the technology/logistics aren't interested in sharing it, plus the "football answers" people are loud and clear on the side of "Browner and Butler read it, the call sucked, fire Bevell". (The Fire Bevell part being wishful thinking). The sheer unbelievably excellent recognition and execution of Browner and Butler, especially Butler, is so amazing that's what gives rise to the 1% of doubt. We'll just go with Belichick coached them in this specific play over and over, and they got lucky (Luck = preparation meets opportunity) in that Seattle was predictable and dumb enough to call exactly this play with the game on the line.

So, if nobody is going to share the technology/logistics part of what would be involved, I'll give it a rest until summer, and ask it differently in the NFL forum, without regard to the SB49 play.

The expert consensus among football-knowledgeable Hawk fans is, Browner and Butler read it, great play, nothing more to it, congratulations Patriots.