SI - Ranking the Playoff O-lines...

[kearly]

Seattle had one of the best rushing attacks in NFL history this season. Of the other greatest ever rushing teams, how many had people saying bad things about their OL?

Lynch is incredible, but he had 3.4 YPC in 2010 behind a vastly inferior OL to the one we have now. And when Lynch couldn't play in 2014, Seattle's rushing attack still operated on a very high level.

It's time Seattle's OL got its due. Their numbers at FO are basically the same the 49ers had in previous years when everyone thought they were the NFL's best.

 

[bigskydoc]

I said

We have an elite run blocking line and a average to slightly above average pass blocking line that looks worse because of Wilson. He is constantly on the move and doesnt dump the ball off when the protection breaks down.

Which conveys no judgement about Russ or his play, only that these aspects of his game make the pass pro look worse than it is.


The difference between slightly above average and slightly below average is pretty small. With 32 teams in the league, that could be as narrow as the difference between ranked 15th and ranked 17th.


For strictly pass pro, there are only 14 lines that I might consider over ours.

Denver, New England, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Philly, Atlanta, New Orleans, Green Bay, Pittsburgh, Dallas, Buffalo, Detroit, Miami.


For run blocking, I will stick with ours unless I can get the Dallas line plus whatever deal they have with the refs to allow them to hold without getting flagged for it.


Overall, I would rank our line somewhere around 8th to 12th place in the league if we are talking about how they are playing right now and not looking at stats that incorporate the early and mid-season.


- bsd RPA

 

[Anthony!]

Seattle had one of the best rushing attacks in NFL history this season. Of the other greatest ever rushing teams, how many had people saying bad things about their OL?

Lynch is incredible, but he had 3.4 YPC in 2010 behind a vastly inferior OL to the one we have now. And when Lynch couldn't play in 2014, Seattle's rushing attack still operated on a very high level.

It's time Seattle's OL got its due. Their numbers at FO are basically the same the 49ers had in previous years when everyone thought they were the NFL's best.

I have never argued that the oline run blocking was not good, its not great but it is very very good. However that said part of this teams rushing attack that is so great is Wilson and a lot of his runs are because the oline did not do a good job of pass blocking.

 

[olyfan63]

bigskydoc has this nailed. For some objective analysis, go look at ScotteMojo's thread analyzing the 7 sacks in the first Cardinals game.

Out of the 7 sacks, at most 1-2 were on the O-Line. The rest were on Wilson holding the ball or on Bevell for bad play design, or potentially on Wilson again for not using pre-snap reads to adjust protection. Gee, 6 rushers on 5 blockers. Wonder what's gonna happen?

Just don't translate what bsd said into "Wilson sucks", and instead, process and think over what's actually there, and you'll have it. As bsd said, Wilson gives us by far the best chance to win.

 

[Anthony!]

I said

We have an elite run blocking line and a average to slightly above average pass blocking line that looks worse because of Wilson. He is constantly on the move and doesnt dump the ball off when the protection breaks down.

Which conveys no judgement about Russ or his play, only that these aspects of his game make the pass pro look worse than it is.


The difference between slightly above average and slightly below average is pretty small. With 32 teams in the league, that could be as narrow as the difference between ranked 15th and ranked 17th.


For strictly pass pro, there are only 14 lines that I might consider over ours.

Denver, New England, Baltimore, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Philly, Atlanta, New Orleans, Green Bay, Pittsburgh, Dallas, Buffalo, Detroit, Miami.


For run blocking, I will stick with ours unless I can get the Dallas line plus whatever deal they have with the refs to allow them to hold without getting flagged for it.


Overall, I would rank our line somewhere around 8th to 12th place in the league if we are talking about how they are playing right now and not looking at stats that incorporate the early and mid-season.


- bsd RPA

Dude they are ranked 24th and widely regarded amongst experts as one of the worse pass blocking olines in the league. You said AVG (18-14 ranking) to slight above avg (14-10) So basically you said Wilson drops them 6-14 spots that is huge and that was the issue I had. As I said Wilson does far more to make them look good than bad. To give you an idea the difference between 24 and 16 is 2.6% sack rate that is huge.

Also how can you ranked then 8-12 but still have 14 olines you would consider ahead of them, that means the best they should be is 15th

As to only for pass protection well lets see considering they are ranked 24th this year that would be 23 that would be worth taking over them, Last year they were ranked 32, year before tanked 20th. So if you want to argue this year was anomaly I might agree but for the last 3 years they have not been hire than 20th, that is a pattern. I would submit they would be ranked worse if it was any other QB but Wilson.

Forgetting the ranking even in the eye test they are bad and the announcers say something to that affect nearly every game. Every expert says the biggest need on this team is Oline pass blocking for 3 years. So I understand you do not want to think the oline is bad, but all the evidence and facts show they are bad at pass blocking.

 

[Anthony!]

bigskydoc has this nailed. For some objective analysis, go look at ScotteMojo's thread analyzing the 7 sacks in the first Cardinals game.

Out of the 7 sacks, at most 1-2 were on the O-Line. The rest were on Wilson holding the ball or on Bevell for bad play design, or potentially on Wilson again for not using pre-snap reads to adjust protection. Gee, 6 rushers on 5 blockers. Wonder what's gonna happen?

Just don't translate what bsd said into "Wilson sucks", and instead, process and think over what's actually there, and you'll have it. As bsd said, Wilson gives us by far the best chance to win.

I am glad he did that and I can provide a link were PFT di it last year on all the sacks and only 1 was on Wilson. I al also sure that when they do it again they will show very few on Wilson again. Also you are just looking at sacks, what about hits, hurries etc. Also add in the number of sacks, hits, hurries that do not happen because of Wilson. How many sacks in that game would the oline have given up if not for Wilson. If I recall there were several. Also you are assuming Wilson did not make adjustments. Maybe he did but the oline failed to make them

Again I am not saying that at times some of this is not Wilson fault, of course it is a times, but to actually suggest that a large part of it is on Wilson is just plain ridiculous.

 

[seatownlowdown]

its sad, we almost have to run the ball with this offensive line since its so poor protecting our qb. russells passing talent is really being constrained. i have yet to see many deep drops this year. deep passing game does not exist except for broken plays or scripted 1-read 3 step drops, and even those are being hurried.

i make no condolences here -

britt as mentioned has been horrid at pass protection and whiffs as much as carp does in the run game. he scares me out there. dude just cant do the job at a high enough level at this point. seriously been rushed (pun added). sure, let him compete next season, and hope he makes a sweezy-type jump in the offseason. the d-line talent level in the division is not gonna level off any time soon.

carp is slow and unable to pull, whiffs on both pass and run blocks, gives up on plays, has a terribly low iq that he displays, and is below average overall. when he is engaged with a defender, however, he will win the battle. his problem is getting beat before that. he lost some weight in the offseason and that helped him get a bit better in that regard, just getting off the line quicker. and hes good for atleast 1 penalty a game. has missed plenty of time in his career with injuries.

okung is good at pass blocking but mediocre at run blocking. just not stout at the point of attack on run blocks. doesnt engage with passion. seems to miss 1/4+ of games each season. good for atleast 1 penalty a game.

unger also seems to miss 1/4+ of games each season. he sucks at blocking now, gets pushed around and sometimes just gets demolished. incapable of blocking anybody 1 on 1. perhaps his woes because of injury history, but whatever the excuse, he is the captain of the line, so he gets to stay around unfortunately. im just not a huge fan anymore.

sweezy is a boss. would be even better if he had consistent players on either side of him. he just doesnt get that luxury this year.

bailey is atleast an adequate reserve. he's huge with short arms, not typical size of a tackle but is an upgrade over britt right freakin now. could be used as leverage against resigning okung to a high priced deal in the offseason. obviously shown versatility to be able to play guard as well.

conclusion: they need to reinvest in the oline this offseason. they need to get younger and healthier here. the oline affects your entire pass and run game. i hope they cut unger, let carp walk and offer okung a lowball ~$5-6m/yr offer. hes probably just not worth the risk of more payroll due to his inconsistencies and injuries. draft an offensive tackle in the 1st or 2nd, and address guard within the 1st three-four rounds also. take some fliers on guys later in the draft as projects. just completely rebuild, keeping sweezy as a core piece and bailey/britt/ljp/lewis as supplemental options. i also think if/when bevell leaves that will help us protect our qb schematically

 

[bigskydoc]

Dude they are ranked 24th and widely regarded amongst experts as one of the worse pass blocking olines in the league. You said AVG (18-14 ranking) to slight above avg (14-10)

You made those cutoffs, not me. I believe that they are currently providing an average to slightly above average level of pass pro. Which, as I implied, would have me ranking them between 14-16 based strictly on their current level of pass protection. I would bump them up to 12th overall if you include their current level of run blocking.

The Football Outsiders Stats that you refer to rank teams on their season's production, not how they are playing currently. If you are looking at the season as a whole, then I would agree that they are fairly close. I would rank this season's overall pass protection slightly below average, in the 17-20 range.

So basically you said Wilson drops them 6-14 spots

I never said anything of the sort.

Also how can you ranked then 8-12 but still have 14 olines you would consider ahead of them, that means the best they should be is 15th

Apparently, you struggle with nuance. I said "For strictly pass pro, there are only 14 lines that I might consider over ours." I would have to take a closer look at each teams pass pro, but that is my gestalt from what I have seen this season.

Then I said "Overall (combined run and pass block) I would rank our line somewhere around 8th to12th place in the league if we are talking about how they are playing right now." 8th is probably a reach, but 12th is probably pretty accurate. If you want to look at the whole season's product, and not just how they are playing now, then I would rank them below average (18-20)

As to only for pass protection well lets see considering they are ranked 24th this year that would be 23 that would be worth taking over them

And apparently you struggle with the concept that they could be, and in fact have, improved over the course of the season. Like I said, they are currently operating at about a 14-16 level in pass pro, although their season pass pro ranking should be around 20.

Every expert says the biggest need on this team is Oline pass blocking for 3 years.

They are right, and nothing I have said contradicts this. When every other facet of your team is operating at an elite level, then the average to slightly above average unit is the weakest link and the biggest need. The two worst areas of our game are the offensive line and the receiving corps.

- bsd RPA

 

[bigskydoc]

Again I am not saying that at times some of this is not Wilson fault, of course it is a times, but to actually suggest that a large part of it is on Wilson is just plain ridiculous.

The only person using the phrase "a large part of it is on Wilson" is you.

I have never argued that the oline run blocking was not good, its not great but it is very very good. However that said part of this teams rushing attack that is so great is Wilson and a lot of his runs are because the oline did not do a good job of pass blocking.

The very Football Outsider's stats that you quoted, the ones that rank our line 4th in run blocking, adjusts for this. It's not perfect when you have an out of the box QB like Wilson, but Wilson should be heavily over represented in the Open Field Rank stat where we come in at 11th.


- bsd

 

[bigskydoc]

Almost on Queue, PFF released their 2014 Offensive Line Rankings for the year. I have been F5ing for these every morning and it looks like they were published some time yesterday.

They have Seattle at 19th overall for the year, right about where I had them (18-20), and at 18th in pass protection for the year, once again pretty close to where I had them (17-20). They also rank the penalties at 30th. I didn't rank the penalties, I just assumed they were atrocious.

This is a big 8 position jump up from last year for the Hawks line, and they are playing significantly better now than they were during the part of mid-season that really drags down their ranking. With Unger coming back, I am expecting good things in the protection department in the upcoming weeks.

As we have seen, They grade Britt poorly in his pass pro, but felt he was good in run blocking.

19. Seattle Seahawks (27th)

Pass Block Ranking: 18th, Run Blocking Ranking: 17th, Penalties Ranking: 30th

Stud: Max Unger played superbly but was limited to 385 snaps because of injury. His loss has hurt the team greatly.

Dud: Rookies will take their lumps. Justin Britt (-18.5) was no exception and while he was a bonus to the running game, he simply allowed too much pressure.

Breakdown: Nothing catastrophic here but just a lack of top-tier performances. It didn’t help that they have played most of the year without their best lineman but they probably would have expected their former first-rounder to deliver more consistently.

I'm not sure why the big difference between the Football Outsiders Run Block Ranking and PFF's run ranking (1st vs 17th), but I generally feel that PFF's formula does a better job of ranking the run blocking while Football Outsiders seems to be more accurate at grading the pass (IMHO).

-bsd RPA

 

[olyfan63]

Thank you for adding to the quality of the discussion and being patient with those who at first misinterpret you.

This quote of yours pretty well nails it.

"When every other facet of your team is operating at an elite level, then the average to slightly above average unit is the weakest link and the biggest need. The two worst areas of our game are the offensive line and the receiving corps."

From an eye-test standpoint, our current O-Line in the playoffs is overall a notch above our O-Line from last year.
It's just that compared to our elite defensive position groups, they appear to suck. I think the truth is that being able to field a couple average position groups (OL and WR's) at a bargain price creates salary cap room to pay and keep our elite defenders. Even so, it's still hard to watch them be the weak links.

I appreciate your contributions here very much.

 

[grizbob]

Do all of you know that Doug used to be a regular at the old Scout site which later morphed into this site? That's where he got his start, really.

Having said that, I didn't read the article. It's probably shite.

Yup, and before Scout if I remember correctly. I know Les didn't care for him for some reason I don't remember.

 

[HawKnPeppa]

its sad, we almost have to run the ball with this offensive line since its so poor protecting our qb. russells passing talent is really being constrained. i have yet to see many deep drops this year. deep passing game does not exist except for broken plays or scripted 1-read 3 step drops, and even those are being hurried.

i make no condolences here -

britt as mentioned has been horrid at pass protection and whiffs as much as carp does in the run game. he scares me out there. dude just cant do the job at a high enough level at this point. seriously been rushed (pun added). sure, let him compete next season, and hope he makes a sweezy-type jump in the offseason. the d-line talent level in the division is not gonna level off any time soon.

carp is slow and unable to pull, whiffs on both pass and run blocks, gives up on plays, has a terribly low iq that he displays, and is below average overall. when he is engaged with a defender, however, he will win the battle. his problem is getting beat before that. he lost some weight in the offseason and that helped him get a bit better in that regard, just getting off the line quicker. and hes good for atleast 1 penalty a game. has missed plenty of time in his career with injuries.

okung is good at pass blocking but mediocre at run blocking. just not stout at the point of attack on run blocks. doesnt engage with passion. seems to miss 1/4+ of games each season. good for atleast 1 penalty a game.

unger also seems to miss 1/4+ of games each season. he sucks at blocking now, gets pushed around and sometimes just gets demolished. incapable of blocking anybody 1 on 1. perhaps his woes because of injury history, but whatever the excuse, he is the captain of the line, so he gets to stay around unfortunately. im just not a huge fan anymore.

sweezy is a boss. would be even better if he had consistent players on either side of him. he just doesnt get that luxury this year.

bailey is atleast an adequate reserve. he's huge with short arms, not typical size of a tackle but is an upgrade over britt right freakin now. could be used as leverage against resigning okung to a high priced deal in the offseason. obviously shown versatility to be able to play guard as well.

conclusion: they need to reinvest in the oline this offseason. they need to get younger and healthier here. the oline affects your entire pass and run game. i hope they cut unger, let carp walk and offer okung a lowball ~$5-6m/yr offer. hes probably just not worth the risk of more payroll due to his inconsistencies and injuries. draft an offensive tackle in the 1st or 2nd, and address guard within the 1st three-four rounds also. take some fliers on guys later in the draft as projects. just completely rebuild, keeping sweezy as a core piece and bailey/britt/ljp/lewis as supplemental options. i also think if/when bevell leaves that will help us protect our qb schematically

A very one-side point of view that appears to be frozen in a time warp. Kind of like studying a performance-over-time graph and freezing your thoughts at the lowest point. I've got it! Some sort of suspended animation or cryogenics chamber?