Seattle is rebuilding

[Sgt. Largent]

Sixteen touchdowns.

Drops...effort...run-first...quiet between the 20s...and they still provided big dividends in the one area that matters above all else. If they're one-dimensional, they sure picked one hell of a single dimension to succeed in.

I'm just going to keep dropping that little line until someone can give me a satisfactory answer as to how we're going to replace that offensive production for 2018. Nobody's given me one yet. Truth is, I don't think we're going to.

So let me get this straight, you wanted us to keep Jimmy and Paul with only 30M of cap space?

Jimmy's contract pays him 10M per season, Richardson's pays him 8M. That leaves us 12M for;

- starting guard
- starting outside LB
- two starting defensive tackles
- 1-2 running backs
- starting DE
- starting CB
- starting kicker
- TE depth
- CB depth
- LB depth
- O-line depth
- extending Earl and Brown
- signing all our draft picks

Did I miss anything? We're suppose to fill all these holes with no 2nd or 3rd round picks and only 12M of cap space? Wat?

 

[Seymour]

Sixteen touchdowns.

Drops...effort...run-first...quiet between the 20s...and they still provided big dividends in the one area that matters above all else. If they're one-dimensional, they sure picked one hell of a single dimension to succeed in.

I'm just going to keep dropping that little line until someone can give me a satisfactory answer as to how we're going to replace that offensive production for 2018. Nobody's given me one yet. Truth is, I don't think we're going to.

So let me get this straight, you wanted us to keep Jimmy and Paul with only 30M of cap space?

Jimmy's contract pays him 10M per season, Richardson's pays him 8M. That leaves us 12M for;

- starting guard
- starting outside LB
- two starting defensive tackles
- 1-2 running backs
- starting DE
- starting CB
- starting kicker
- TE depth
- CB depth
- LB depth
- O-line depth
- extending Earl and Brown
- signing all our draft picks

Did I miss anything? We're suppose to fill all these holes with no 2nd or 3rd round picks and only 12M of cap space? Wat?

Yes. We should gain another $7M from Avril, and quite possibly (likely IMO) $8.5M from Thomas.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Sixteen touchdowns.

Drops...effort...run-first...quiet between the 20s...and they still provided big dividends in the one area that matters above all else. If they're one-dimensional, they sure picked one hell of a single dimension to succeed in.

I'm just going to keep dropping that little line until someone can give me a satisfactory answer as to how we're going to replace that offensive production for 2018. Nobody's given me one yet. Truth is, I don't think we're going to.

So let me get this straight, you wanted us to keep Jimmy and Paul with only 30M of cap space?

Jimmy's contract pays him 10M per season, Richardson's pays him 8M. That leaves us 12M for;

- starting guard
- starting outside LB
- two starting defensive tackles
- 1-2 running backs
- starting DE
- starting CB
- starting kicker
- TE depth
- CB depth
- LB depth
- O-line depth
- extending Earl and Brown
- signing all our draft picks

Did I miss anything? We're suppose to fill all these holes with no 2nd or 3rd round picks and only 12M of cap space? Wat?

Would have liked to keep one of them for sure.

Very few of the positions you listed score touchdowns. If I have to choose, I'd rather keep guys with the most direct connection to scoring. The fact that Jimmy and Paul produced like they did despite all those holes speaks to their worth.

If they've become too expensive, fine. But you have yet to give me a convincing case as to how they'll be replaced. Doug Baldwin is about to be 30 and will see more coverage this year. Tyler Lockett's still around, though it's a toss-up whether he'll ever be his old self. Behind them is...a largely unproven roster and a handful of gadget players, one of whom was handed a lower tender than expected and might sign elsewhere. There's a LOT of faith being placed in that roster, and I'm seeing a lot of rationalization to do so.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Sixteen touchdowns.

Drops...effort...run-first...quiet between the 20s...and they still provided big dividends in the one area that matters above all else. If they're one-dimensional, they sure picked one hell of a single dimension to succeed in.

I'm just going to keep dropping that little line until someone can give me a satisfactory answer as to how we're going to replace that offensive production for 2018. Nobody's given me one yet. Truth is, I don't think we're going to.

So let me get this straight, you wanted us to keep Jimmy and Paul with only 30M of cap space?

Jimmy's contract pays him 10M per season, Richardson's pays him 8M. That leaves us 12M for;

- starting guard
- starting outside LB
- two starting defensive tackles
- 1-2 running backs
- starting DE
- starting CB
- starting kicker
- TE depth
- CB depth
- LB depth
- O-line depth
- extending Earl and Brown
- signing all our draft picks

Did I miss anything? We're suppose to fill all these holes with no 2nd or 3rd round picks and only 12M of cap space? Wat?

Yes. We should gain another $7M from Avril, and quite possibly (likely IMO) $8.5M from Thomas.

If Thomas is traded, it's before or during the draft. So even IF that cap space relief comes, it won't be until after the first 2-3 waves of free agency.........and my guess is since we didn't trade him, Pete and John want to try and extend him.

For me Thomas is a 50/50 right now, staying or going. But again, won't be until the teams that might be interested complete their free agent acquisitions and draft targets.

 

[original poster]

Sixteen touchdowns.

Drops...effort...run-first...quiet between the 20s...and they still provided big dividends in the one area that matters above all else. If they're one-dimensional, they sure picked one hell of a single dimension to succeed in.

I'm just going to keep dropping that little line until someone can give me a satisfactory answer as to how we're going to replace that offensive production for 2018. Nobody's given me one yet. Truth is, I don't think we're going to.

So let me get this straight, you wanted us to keep Jimmy and Paul with only 30M of cap space?

Jimmy's contract pays him 10M per season, Richardson's pays him 8M. That leaves us 12M for;

- starting guard
- starting outside LB
- two starting defensive tackles
- 1-2 running backs
- starting DE
- starting CB
- starting kicker
- TE depth
- CB depth
- LB depth
- O-line depth
- extending Earl and Brown
- signing all our draft picks

Did I miss anything? We're suppose to fill all these holes with no 2nd or 3rd round picks and only 12M of cap space? Wat?

Yes. We should gain another $7M from Avril, and quite possibly (likely IMO) $8.5M from Thomas.

If Thomas is traded, it's before or during the draft. So even IF that cap space relief comes, it won't be until after the first 2-3 waves of free agency.........and my guess is since we didn't trade him, Pete and John want to try and extend him.

For me Thomas is a 50/50 right now, staying or going. But again, won't be until the teams that might be interested complete their free agent acquisitions and draft targets.

No way in hell does he get traded on draft day.

If he's still here by this time next week, he's staying.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

.

If they've become too expensive, fine. But you have yet to give me a convincing case as to how they'll be replaced.

1. No one can tell you how they'll be replaced, because our GM and coach screwed the pooch on our cap and draft last year, so this is what happens when you have no cap to fill half your roster and make legitimate offers to your valuable free agents.

2. Richardson probably would have stayed if we matched, but you're assume Graham would as well........and IMO no way in hell Graham was EVER coming back. He wasn't happy here, and he sure wasn't happy with how he was used.

So to keep harping on this like he was coming back makes no sense. He was gone the minute his contract expired for a team with a great QB that can get him the ball, and won't ask him to block 50% of the time.

How will we replace their production? Who the hell knows..........hopefully with a better run game, draft and the guys we find either through free agency and the draft.

WILL that happen? Probably not.

 

[TwistedHusky]

The Seahawks are not close to contending.

Just look at the roster and depth chart. See all the holes?

Look at the offensive production and who it came from, then look at who we still have.

We have holes up and down our roster but the FO that has had problems drafting for at least 3 years is going to solve this.

There is a belief that players are fungible. Average players are fungible. Great players are not.

Pete Carroll is great at winning with great players (maybe considering the past 3 years we have to revise that statement a bit...but he can be a driving force in getting great players to work together.) But he is substantially, if not tremendously, lacking as a tactician. He will not take a group of average players and make them winners.

But he can take a group of guys that were overlooked and redirect them to where they can be great. And that is our only hope, that there are a number of teams that simply look for different measurables.

We have to find the next 'type' that bucks the NFL trend. Hopefully Pete has some new thoughts on this because this is the only way I can see this team becoming even better than good again. Everyone else is doing the SPARQ thing so new ideas will be needed or we won't be able to fix this.

Pete also needs to reach back into his contact base and find a great talent evaluator from the college ranks. We can still be good if we get another Scott McLoughlan. Otherwise, we might be able to fill the holes with the draft or FA, but not in a way that brings in players substantially better than the other teams have.

And Pete does not win unless his players are better than the players on the other side, so we simply have get substantially better at finding the diamonds in the rough and developing them into stars.

 

[original poster]

The Seahawks are not close to contending.

Just look at the roster and depth chart. See all the holes?

Look at the offensive production and who it came from, then look at who we still have.

We have holes up and down our roster but the FO that has had problems drafting for at least 3 years is going to solve this.

There is a belief that players are fungible. Average players are fungible. Great players are not.

Pete Carroll is great at winning with great players (maybe considering the past 3 years we have to revise that statement a bit...but he can be a driving force in getting great players to work together.) But he is substantially, if not tremendously, lacking as a tactician. He will not take a group of average players and make them winners.

But he can take a group of guys that were overlooked and redirect them to where they can be great. And that is our only hope, that there are a number of teams that simply look for different measurables.

We have to find the next 'type' that bucks the NFL trend. Hopefully Pete has some new thoughts on this because this is the only way I can see this team becoming even better than good again. Everyone else is doing the SPARQ thing so new ideas will be needed or we won't be able to fix this.

Pete also needs to reach back into his contact base and find a great talent evaluator from the college ranks. We can still be good if we get another Scott McLoughlan. Otherwise, we might be able to fill the holes with the draft or FA, but not in a way that brings in players substantially better than the other teams have.

And Pete does not win unless his players are better than the players on the other side, so we simply have get substantially better at finding the diamonds in the rough and developing them into stars.

Genuine question TH, do you think it's a bit ridiculous to be saying the Seahawks are not contenders in 2018 before free agency actually gets underway and before the draft?

I get your point about the drafting, but I honestly don't understand the comments about how bad the roster is now, especially given how much it will change in the coming months.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

I wonder why some people even watch the team sometimes. I mean, they clearly are going to be 2-14 :?

 

[MontanaHawk05]

The Seahawks are not close to contending.

Just look at the roster and depth chart. See all the holes?

Look at the offensive production and who it came from, then look at who we still have.

We have holes up and down our roster but the FO that has had problems drafting for at least 3 years is going to solve this.

There is a belief that players are fungible. Average players are fungible. Great players are not.

Pete Carroll is great at winning with great players (maybe considering the past 3 years we have to revise that statement a bit...but he can be a driving force in getting great players to work together.) But he is substantially, if not tremendously, lacking as a tactician. He will not take a group of average players and make them winners.

But he can take a group of guys that were overlooked and redirect them to where they can be great. And that is our only hope, that there are a number of teams that simply look for different measurables.

We have to find the next 'type' that bucks the NFL trend. Hopefully Pete has some new thoughts on this because this is the only way I can see this team becoming even better than good again. Everyone else is doing the SPARQ thing so new ideas will be needed or we won't be able to fix this.

Pete also needs to reach back into his contact base and find a great talent evaluator from the college ranks. We can still be good if we get another Scott McLoughlan. Otherwise, we might be able to fill the holes with the draft or FA, but not in a way that brings in players substantially better than the other teams have.

And Pete does not win unless his players are better than the players on the other side, so we simply have get substantially better at finding the diamonds in the rough and developing them into stars.

Genuine question TH, do you think it's a bit ridiculous to be saying the Seahawks are not contenders in 2018 before free agency actually gets underway and before the draft?

I get your point about the drafting, but I honestly don't understand the comments about how bad the roster is now, especially given how much it will change in the coming months.

You know we're missing a lot of draft picks this year.

Normally I agree with not freaking out on Day 2 of free agency, but we have little to spend after the coming Duane Brown extension, and draft help is going to be thin. Our 2018 roster is likely going to look a lot more like 2017's than most people want to admit, minus a lot of talent.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

So let me get this straight, you wanted us to keep Jimmy and Paul with only 30M of cap space?

Jimmy's contract pays him 10M per season, Richardson's pays him 8M. That leaves us 12M for;

- starting guard
- starting outside LB
- two starting defensive tackles
- 1-2 running backs
- starting DE
- starting CB
- starting kicker
- TE depth
- CB depth
- LB depth
- O-line depth
- extending Earl and Brown
- signing all our draft picks

Did I miss anything? We're suppose to fill all these holes with no 2nd or 3rd round picks and only 12M of cap space? Wat?

Yes. We should gain another $7M from Avril, and quite possibly (likely IMO) $8.5M from Thomas.

If Thomas is traded, it's before or during the draft. So even IF that cap space relief comes, it won't be until after the first 2-3 waves of free agency.........and my guess is since we didn't trade him, Pete and John want to try and extend him.

For me Thomas is a 50/50 right now, staying or going. But again, won't be until the teams that might be interested complete their free agent acquisitions and draft targets.

No way in hell does he get traded on draft day.

If he's still here by this time next week, he's staying.

Big name players have been traded on draft day, that's how the big Hershel Walker trade went down in 1999.

I'm not saying it's likely, but it's also not out of the question.

IMO our chance to trade Earl has passed, and now we either have to extend him, or get into a war trying to force him to play out the last year of his contract.

Bottom line for this thread? We didn't have the cap space to try and keep Graham or Richardson, too many holes to fill on the roster to keep two inconsistent players for 18M a year.

 

[TwistedHusky]

To answer the question?
Yes, I think it is easily clear that this team is out of the race.

We 'might' make the playoffs but I don't know if that is a reasonable goal either.

Bear in mind, that with all our players last year - we didn't.

And this team lost a number of its star players:

Bennett was a star player
Graham was a star player
Sherman was a star player.

Pete's teams win with their stars, maybe more than most. Replacing 3 guys that literally tilt the field is asking a lot.

And this team has shown that in FA, we make more mistakes than we have successes - so 'not making moves in FA yet' just means we haven't yet made the annual bad deal that we are generally prone to.

Finally, the idea that we can just pop a number of draft picks in to be the next round of stars? We haven't tended to find them anyway, not over the past few years.

The math is against us, just on our success rates. We also don't have many draft picks anyway, so I am not sure how many holes we can even fill. (And draft picks tend to take a while to turn into good players. A WR tends to take 2-3 years.)

Oh and on top of everything, we have a new OC which is going to lead to some growing pains with the offense (assuming we can field an offense with no run game and half our TDs vanishing).

This is a rebuild year. It is not a year to expect much in terms of playoffs and certainly not a year we can contend in. Even if Barkley slid to us, and he won't.

 

[BigMeach]

Seattle is rebuilding my question is where are they going on offense because this is not a playoff team currently . They need help at WR they need help on the O-line they need help at RB . They lost Sherman and Jimmy. How are they going to score points. Seems to me they need to find some more offense in a hurry or next year will be a crap show. They must have a good draft this year or i'm done with the Pete and John era. I don't think they have done well at all the past few years in talent evaluation. Everyone in the division with the possible exception of Arizona is in a better position than Seattle. Also to me it makes no sense to resign Earl not anymore it's a waste of money because this is an 8-8 9-7 team and I have no confidence they strike gold in this years draft. They are rebuilding. The best they can hope for unless they keep the pick at 18 and take BPA is adding depth. I don't see any of the RB's that could be available in a trade down as game changers solid players yes star players no.

Rams: High 1st round picks every year for the past decade and they have FINALLY had a good year...

49ers: Have sucked for the last couple years but because they went on a streak at the end of last year are suddenly SB or bust.

Cardinals: Eh?


Go be a fan of one of those teams.

 

[massari]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/BenVolin/status/973539827797905410[/tweet]
Hopefully they try trading Duane Brown to Cleveland for one of their 2nds now that Solder signed with the Giants.

That and a 1st for Thomas is perfection.

Would trade Wagner for a King's ransom and KJ for a late 2nd or early 3rd as well.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

No thx

 

[Seahawks Guy]

They're making changes, sure. But what is the definition of "rebuilding"? Seems like people are just going to disagree on what the definition is and argue from there.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

They're making changes, sure. But what is the definition of "rebuilding"? Seems like people are just going to disagree on what the definition is and argue from there.

Well, I'd say turning over half our roster is rebuilding, especially when it involves getting rid of players that used to be your cornerstones.

It also usually involves taking a step back for a year or two, which it also looks like we're going to do.

 

[Silver Hawk]

They're making changes, sure. But what is the definition of "rebuilding"? Seems like people are just going to disagree on what the definition is and argue from there.

Well, I'd say turning over half our roster is rebuilding, especially when it involves getting rid of players that used to be your cornerstones.

It also usually involves taking a step back for a year or two, which it also looks like we're going to do.

Exactly. Not sure how anyone could see this as anything other than a massive rebuild.

Other teams do not “do this all the time”. I’ve been following the NFL for about 45 years. I have not seen teams routinely dismantling their rosters. Not to this extent. This is a complete restructure. Not a prune and trim job.

PC and JS may strike gold, eventually (2-3 years?). However, make no mistake about it, the Seahawks have moved back several squares in this game. Until further notice, the Seahawks are in NFL roster churn mode and on par with the average (or worse?) teams. At least we still have a franchise QB (plus some very good other pieces, to be fair).

 

[Uncle Si]

They're making changes, sure. But what is the definition of "rebuilding"? Seems like people are just going to disagree on what the definition is and argue from there.

Well, I'd say turning over half our roster is rebuilding, especially when it involves getting rid of players that used to be your cornerstones.

It also usually involves taking a step back for a year or two, which it also looks like we're going to do.

Exactly. Not sure how anyone could see this as anything other than a massive rebuild.

Other teams do not “do this all the time”. I’ve been following the NFL for about 45 years. I have not seen teams routinely dismantling their rosters. Not to this extent. This is a complete restructure. Not a prune and trim job.

PC and JS may strike gold, eventually (2-3 years?). However, make no mistake about it, the Seahawks have moved back several squares in this game. Until further notice, the Seahawks are in NFL roster churn mode and on par with the average (or worse?) teams. At least we still have a franchise QB (plus some very good other pieces, to be fair).

Rosters churn all the time in this league. we have seen Carroll make scores of moves in one singular offseason before.

I feel people are in shock at how quickly the LOB demise was. But it's happened.

Difficult to determine what this team's potential for '18 and '19 will be until the roster is final.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

At least we still have a franchise QB (plus some very good other pieces, to be fair).

This is the most important part, and what gives me hope that Pete and John will be successful if given another 2-3 years to get the defense young, hungry and nasty again.

Russell should be the difference between staying around 8-8 and still competing during a rebuild, and going full Browns for half a decade looking for another top 10 QB.