Sean Payton Was Toxic in Denver, Not Russell Wilson?

[keasley45]

Why leave out details that affect the outcome though? When we discuss Geno we talk about injuries, the offensive line, Waldron etc. Russ lost his running back and 3 of his top receivers and yet the same people making those arguments for Geno strangely leave them out when discussing Russ. I’ll believe a lot of this stuff isn’t biased when the critical side of Russ at least acknowledges some things were out of his control that hurt the offense.

Because Russ has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that he struggles to read defenses and diagnose coverage.

Period.

The evaluation of an offense, at the end of the day, hinges on the ability of a qb to run the offense effectively. Russ made plays, tons of them. But NEVER mastered running an offense. He never mastered even making the right line adjustments or making presnap reads, let alone post snap decisions about where to go with the ball and precisely when. If someone still disputes that and tries to hold up stats as proof... i dont know what to say.

When the QB is known to not be able to make the play when its there to be made, things get messy. Is it the lines fault they allowed a sack on a blitz, or was the protection and play call good enough and the qb just didnt hit it? Did the QB make the right adjustment in protection or identify the hot read? Russ has shown over and over and over again that he doesnt do these things with any reliable consistency. Its what caused SP to boik over. Whether because he cant process the plays or coverages fast enough or he simlply cant see the routes. Doesnt matter. End result is the same. Because he makes a spectacular play again and again despite these shortcomings does t change that fact.

Russ proved it and embarassingly so while in Denver and did the same while he was in Seattle. Its just that when he was here, he had an off-ramp provided him in a coach who wouldnt hold his feet to the fire when he missed and accepted him making stuff up, as long as in the end, we won.

Pete Carroll on a last second rally by Russ after 3 qtrs of futility: 'Beautiful, just beautiful. It was tough going but he never gave up. He just kept pushing and believing and then, there it was. He saw it and took advantage of it. Just beautiful!

SP on a last second comeback by Russ after 3 qtrs of futility: 'Look, it was great we got the win, but you cant win like that every week. The qb needs to execute better. We do that and we dont need a comeback. And it wasnt a case of things being better on that last drive. We just cant live off of backyard football. '

Is SP really cherry picking there? Nope.

Is Geno perfect? nope. Does he miss reads? Yup. Is he late on throws occassionally, Yes.
But the dude can run the offense. He can make line adjustments. He can make the reads. He can identify the hot routes. He can see patterns in defensive strategy and take those lessons early in games and exploit them later.

With Geno, when the line makes a mistake, its a bit more obvious. When a receiever errors, its easier to see. Because the piece of the offense he controls functions as it should. Mostly. Maybe not with elite athelticism or processing, but far better than average.

And when the line blocks and the receiver is where they are supposed to be and the play fails, when then its usually pretty clear to see what Geno did wrong. Case in point, the failed comeback in Dallas when he ackowledge he left a free runner on the pass rush because he didnt account for it in coverage. And you could see it when it happened.

With Russ? He often bailed on plays so quickly and resorted to his own style of play whrn the blocking was there and the wr open, that if the play failed it would have been obvious it was Russ. But more often than not he made it work anyway. He took his own mistake and made up for it in spectacular fashion, in-play.

That was good enough for Pete. Its not good enough for OCs and HCs like Hackett and SP who believe in winning by way of solid gameplanning and strategy... execution. They dont believe the way to win is just winging it on Sunday. Pete did. And fans that adored Russ looked past WHY the offense wasnt efficient and saw only the great play Russ made.

He enjoyed his own personal camelot in Seattle. Its just that now hes seeing that life outside the bubble Pete made for him and fans and media inflated for him is a different version of reality. And that reality can be harsh.

 

[Ozzy]

You don't have the success he had for a decade and be as bad as you guys say he is at reading defenses. You don't have top 3 stats in almost every significant category for ALL TIME if you can't read a defense. I would agree it wasn't the strength of his game. He relied on his athletic ability and being able to create off script but that's ok Big Ben made a pretty good career playing in a similar fashion, Lamar Jackson does fairly well too. Very few guys excell in that area because its really hard to do.

Your argument makes it sound like you believe Geno is better than Russ was at his best and no offense but I think that is a wild take. Russ last year in what everyone is calling a laughing stock was still better than Geno. I think Geno does have different strengths than Russ and it makes a conventional offense much easier. I don't think he is a master of reading defenses either as evident by his lack of success in the red zone the past couple of years. He's not seen multiple touchdowns in that area. But this isn't to say Geno is bad. He is a good QB too I'm just going to go with the idea that he was better than Russ.

I also think its a little unfair to say because he failed with Hackett(who by all accounts was terrible) and Payton when he's at the end of his career. Seems unfair to judge him in his mid 30's as if he's always been that way.

I don't agree that Russ had a very unique skill set and it probably was a challenge in some regards. He was never going to run a Brady, Brees style offense. But those guys couldn't do what he could do either. People forget that Russ also played with a bad OLine, not a ton of weapons and when the offense stalled(it wasn't always Wilsons fault) he was one of the few guys in the league who could still make something happen when nothing else was working and no one could get open. I think you're having some liberty with the idea "the blocking was there and WR were open" Early in WIlsons career we had a terrible line. People who are anti-Russ assume it was all him and at times he definitely played a massive part but we lead the league or were near the top in instant pressures for multiple years. That isn't a Russ issue, that was Cable and the Pete trying to spend money elsewhere and patch together a line. We were really, really bad for multiple years. The year Russ had 98% of our touchdowns or whatever was a historically bad offensive line who couldnt run block either as we had one of the worst rushing offenses. Russ had to carry that offense and he did.

I also understand why Payton, with Russ in his mid 30's would want someone who is more conventional. I also don't fault him for being frustrated with the style Russ needs to succeed with. He is limited in many ways as a unique player and Payton has never ran an offense with that type of QB.

Russ is far from perfect but I will always argue prime Russ was one of the very best and most dangerous QB's in the league and the numbers and wins prove that. This doesn't have to be personal either, we just disagree and that's ok. I do understand a lot of the criticism towards Russ, its just in my humble opinion I think people flat out hate the guy and it bleeds into their argument and they talk themselves into the idea that Russ was worse than he was. He was literally second to Rogers in almost every category in history during his run, that is pretty good for a guy who can't read a defense or hit a wide open receiver.

Again we all view things a little differently and that's what makes sports fun. I think we're all rooting for Geno and the Seahawks at this point so any Russ stuff is just fun to talk about as it was a great time in our history that we all enjoyed. If I had a mission statement it would be you can root like hell that Russ fails miserably the rest of his career because of how he left and how he handled things but we can also at the same time remember when it was good and respect what he accomplished during his time. I guess you could look at it as "the dude struggled in many ways you wan't a QB to excell in but inspite of that was able to have massive succes" and when you think about it its actually a cool story. Just a different way to look at it I guess.

My last post on the topic as I don't want to be John63 part 2 lol.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

I'm surprised some of you don't follow him to the bathroom. This is so entertaining

 

[chris98251]

You don't have the success he had for a decade and be as bad as you guys say he is at reading defenses. You don't have top 3 stats in almost every significant category for ALL TIME if you can't read a defense. I would agree it wasn't the strength of his game. He relied on his athletic ability and being able to create off script but that's ok Big Ben made a pretty good career playing in a similar fashion, Lamar Jackson does fairly well too. Very few guys excell in that area because its really hard to do.

Your argument makes it sound like you believe Geno is better than Russ was at his best and no offense but I think that is a wild take. Russ last year in what everyone is calling a laughing stock was still better than Geno. I think Geno does have different strengths than Russ and it makes a conventional offense much easier. I don't think he is a master of reading defenses either as evident by his lack of success in the red zone the past couple of years. He's not seen multiple touchdowns in that area. But this isn't to say Geno is bad. He is a good QB too I'm just going to go with the idea that he was better than Russ.

I also think its a little unfair to say because he failed with Hackett(who by all accounts was terrible) and Payton when he's at the end of his career. Seems unfair to judge him in his mid 30's as if he's always been that way.

I don't agree that Russ had a very unique skill set and it probably was a challenge in some regards. He was never going to run a Brady, Brees style offense. But those guys couldn't do what he could do either. People forget that Russ also played with a bad OLine, not a ton of weapons and when the offense stalled(it wasn't always Wilsons fault) he was one of the few guys in the league who could still make something happen when nothing else was working and no one could get open. I think you're having some liberty with the idea "the blocking was there and WR were open" Early in WIlsons career we had a terrible line. People who are anti-Russ assume it was all him and at times he definitely played a massive part but we lead the league or were near the top in instant pressures for multiple years. That isn't a Russ issue, that was Cable and the Pete trying to spend money elsewhere and patch together a line. We were really, really bad for multiple years. The year Russ had 98% of our touchdowns or whatever was a historically bad offensive line who couldnt run block either as we had one of the worst rushing offenses. Russ had to carry that offense and he did.

I also understand why Payton, with Russ in his mid 30's would want someone who is more conventional. I also don't fault him for being frustrated with the style Russ needs to succeed with. He is limited in many ways as a unique player and Payton has never ran an offense with that type of QB.

Russ is far from perfect but I will always argue prime Russ was one of the very best and most dangerous QB's in the league and the numbers and wins prove that. This doesn't have to be personal either, we just disagree and that's ok. I do understand a lot of the criticism towards Russ, its just in my humble opinion I think people flat out hate the guy and it bleeds into their argument and they talk themselves into the idea that Russ was worse than he was. He was literally second to Rogers in almost every category in history during his run, that is pretty good for a guy who can't read a defense or hit a wide open receiver.

Again we all view things a little differently and that's what makes sports fun. I think we're all rooting for Geno and the Seahawks at this point so any Russ stuff is just fun to talk about as it was a great time in our history that we all enjoyed. If I had a mission statement it would be you can root like hell that Russ fails miserably the rest of his career because of how he left and how he handled things but we can also at the same time remember when it was good and respect what he accomplished during his time. I guess you could look at it as "the dude struggled in many ways you wan't a QB to excell in but inspite of that was able to have massive succes" and when you think about it its actually a cool story. Just a different way to look at it I guess.

My last post on the topic as I don't want to be John63 part 2 lol.

Ask the defense we had how good Wilson was. Drops Mic.

 

[Ozzy]

Ask the defense we had how good Wilson was. Drops Mic.

Yeah I don’t put a ton of stock in what Sherman says. Of course they think they were the only reason they won. Without Wilson they don’t win a SB. Without the defense they don’t win a SB. Without the dynamic between Russ and Lynch and the new offense they don’t win one either.

 

[keasley45]

Mic drop indeed. Sums it up.

If they thought he was as good as HE thought he was, there wouldnt have been the fracture in the lockerroom.

 

[warden]

There was no Payton in Wilson’s first season with the Broncos. Wilson was really toxic that year

 

[chris98251]

Yeah I don’t put a ton of stock in what Sherman says. Of course they think they were the only reason they won. Without Wilson they don’t win a SB. Without the defense they don’t win a SB. Without the dynamic between Russ and Lynch and the new offense they don’t win one either.

They were like 55 percent, Lynch 20 percent, WR's 20 percent, Wilson, 5 percent, he had comebacks but if he could run an offense most would not have been needed, if he could use the middle of the field we could have had longer possessions and used Lynch even more, so Wilson had a dynamic threat with his legs, but I would argue could have won with Foles, like the Eagles did or a number of QB's that could see the field and get the ball out on time with that team, maybe going as far as saying Flynn may have been the guy we really needed.

 

[Ozzy]

They were like 55 percent, Lynch 20 percent, WR's 20 percent, Wilson, 5 percent, he had comebacks but if he could run an offense most would not have been needed, if he could use the middle of the field we could have had longer possessions and used Lynch even more, so Wilson had a dynamic threat with his legs, but I would argue could have won with Foles, like the Eagles did or a number of QB's that could see the field and get the ball out on time with that team, maybe going as far as saying Flynn may have been the guy we really needed.

Yeah I’m going to respectfully disagree. He was a monster during that SB season. Lynch isn’t lynch either without the threat of the zone read. Again I think people are having a little bit of revisionist history with Wilson. WRs 20% and Wilson 5%? He wasn’t that bad guys lol

 

[ccla]

I always thought, put Hasselbeck on Wilson team and we win at least two super bowls, put Wilson on Hasselbeck's team and we do not even get to the super bowl. This is not to necessarily say that Wilson was better or worse than Hasselbeck, just that it is easier to make an offence click when the qb can quickly go through all the reads.

 

[IndyHawk]

I always thought, put Hasselbeck on Wilson team and we win at least two super bowls, put Wilson on Hasselbeck's team and we do not even get to the super bowl. This is not to necessarily say that Wilson was better or worse than Hasselbeck, just that it is easier to make an offence click when the qb can quickly go through all the reads.

Matt was better except for running around.

 

[rcaido]

Lots of clowns...the most toxic are the ex-wife scorned fans.

 

[ccla]

Lots of clowns…the most blind is the current wife

 

[knownone]

26-8 with a 94 passer rating was as good as Geno last year so then you’d consider Geno falling flat on his face?

I’ll never get the “laughing stock” stuff because it reeks of groupthink nonsense. Strangely his teammates in Denver all speak highly of him and still do yet I was also told everyone in the league hates him.

Why leave out details that affect the outcome though? When we discuss Geno we talk about injuries, the offensive line, Waldron etc. Russ lost his running back and 3 of his top receivers and yet the same people making those arguments for Geno strangely leave them out when discussing Russ. I’ll believe a lot of this stuff isn’t biased when the critical side of Russ at least acknowledges some things were out of his control that hurt the offense.

No. I wouldn't say that about Geno. Over the past two seasons, the Seahawks' offense has ranked in the top 16, with Geno as the quarterback. They've had back-to-back winning seasons, and Geno's gotten public support from his current and former head coach to go along with his two Pro Bowl appearances. Meanwhile, the Broncos' offense was in the bottom six with Russ during that same stretch. They went 11-19 with him as a starter. And his team was so enamored with his performance that they decided to eat one of the biggest contract hits in NFL history to get rid of him.

One guy fell flat on his face. The other did not.

So, perhaps there is something more to evaluating QBs than TD/INT and passer rating. You know? Three numbers don't tell the whole story.

What's there to get about Russ being a laughingstock? You could fill an entire day watching highlights of media members and former players clowning on Wilson during his stint in Denver. This isn't our perspective. It's not "group think." This is the literal reality surrounding Russ's coverage for two years. I mean, Russ in Denver will be remembered as one of the worst trades in NFL history, yet here you are, seemingly arguing that it's not real or in some way indicative of bias against Russell.

 

[toffee]

No. I wouldn't say that about Geno. Over the past two seasons, the Seahawks' offense has ranked in the top 16, with Geno as the quarterback. They've had back-to-back winning seasons, and Geno's gotten public support from his current and former head coach to go along with his two Pro Bowl appearances. Meanwhile, the Broncos' offense was in the bottom six with Russ during that same stretch. They went 11-19 with him as a starter. And his team was so enamored with his performance that they decided to eat one of the biggest contract hits in NFL history to get rid of him.

One guy fell flat on his face. The other did not.

So, perhaps there is something more to evaluating QBs than TD/INT and passer rating. You know? Three numbers don't tell the whole story.

What's there to get about Russ being a laughingstock? You could fill an entire day watching highlights of media members and former players clowning on Wilson during his stint in Denver. This isn't our perspective. It's not "group think." This is the literal reality surrounding Russ's coverage for two years. I mean, Russ in Denver will be remembered as one of the worst trades in NFL history, yet here you are, seemingly arguing that it's not real or in some way indicative of bias against Russell.

mustnt forget that Geno played a few games behind an OL bookend by Stone Forsythe and Jake Curhan,

 

[Ozzy]

No. I wouldn't say that about Geno. Over the past two seasons, the Seahawks' offense has ranked in the top 16, with Geno as the quarterback. They've had back-to-back winning seasons, and Geno's gotten public support from his current and former head coach to go along with his two Pro Bowl appearances. Meanwhile, the Broncos' offense was in the bottom six with Russ during that same stretch. They went 11-19 with him as a starter. And his team was so enamored with his performance that they decided to eat one of the biggest contract hits in NFL history to get rid of him.

One guy fell flat on his face. The other did not.

So, perhaps there is something more to evaluating QBs than TD/INT and passer rating. You know? Three numbers don't tell the whole story.

What's there to get about Russ being a laughingstock? You could fill an entire day watching highlights of media members and former players clowning on Wilson during his stint in Denver. This isn't our perspective. It's not "group think." This is the literal reality surrounding Russ's coverage for two years. I mean, Russ in Denver will be remembered as one of the worst trades in NFL history, yet here you are, seemingly arguing that it's not real or in some way indicative of bias against Russell.

there is more like I said, yet you keep ignoring them. They had massive injuries all over the offense to crucial pieces. Why this keeps getting ignored is baffling. You then conflate things. I would argue it was a terrible trade as well.

Regardless I watched a ton of Denver games. He played better than many are saying as the numbers show and the eye test shows. He just didn’t fit what Payton wanted at the position.

 

[knownone]

there is more like I said, yet you keep ignoring them. They had massive injuries all over the offense to crucial pieces. Why this keeps getting ignored is baffling. You then conflate things. I would argue it was a terrible trade as well.

Regardless I watched a ton of Denver games. He played better than many are saying as the numbers show and the eye test shows. He just didn’t fit what Payton wanted at the position.

Ignoring what? Denver's starting offensive line missed a combined total of one game. Their starting RB missed one game. Starting receivers? 6 combined games. What stands out about their injuries relative to any other team?

I watched Denver, too, and came to a wildly different conclusion. So did the NFL, apparently, since they weren't exactly kicking Wilson's door down to sign him on a vet minimum.

 

[keasley45]

there is more like I said, yet you keep ignoring them. They had massive injuries all over the offense to crucial pieces. Why this keeps getting ignored is baffling. You then conflate things. I would argue it was a terrible trade as well.

Regardless I watched a ton of Denver games. He played better than many are saying as the numbers show and the eye test shows. He just didn’t fit what Payton wanted at the position.

I watched the games as well. Injuries at other positions dont effect how an individual plays his position. The decisions Russ was making last year, the year before... they are the same mistakes he made here.

Sure. He didnt fit SPs system. If Russ played great or was as good as folks think he still is, and he was just a 'bad fit' for SP, it wouldnt have warranted the out and out frustration that you saw from his coach.

Even folks who know him and like him, like ADB, say things like ' i hope he has the tools or people around him to help him become the player he thinks he is...' . Paraphrasing, but thats the summary. What kind of player does Russ think he is? Thats not a mystery, is it?

Sherm said the same thing before his first year in Denver - that now was the time that Russ would show which player he really is... that it was his chance to prove who he thinks he is.

The critique of the guy is the same. Fact is, he can play one kind of ball. PA, deep drops, waiting for long developing routes, deep long bombs and guys to get open. His stats say that over a 12 year career. Its
Not conflating anything.

Even Drew Brees (putting it kindly) said he knew the SP RW marriage would play out the way it did because Russ isnt the type of qb that can run a quick game system.

“I think Russell, to me, is not a timing/rhythm passer," Brees said. "Russell is one of the best deep-ball throwers in the league and has been for a long time. But it’s run game, it’s read/option stuff, it’s the RPO game, and then it’s the heavy play-action. ‘Man, let’s let him launch it.’ Or kind of give him these high-to-low reads. To me, that’s the best system for him."

What kind of qb does it take to run a rhythm, timing, tempo offense? One who can quickly diagnose defenses, make snap adjustments and get the ball out quickly.

He has always seen himself as the Brees / Brady / Rodgers type of player and hes not. He placed himself in that category. He carried himself that way. And when he couldnt do the thing he said he could, he never came out and said - ' hey, i just cant do this, i need to get better'. And SP blasted him for not owning his failure.

Russ's 'system' is one that doesnt require a high degree of difficulty in terms of cerebral play. If he could ever play that way, he would have at some point over a decade. And as defenses in recent years have shifted to take away that area of the field he loves to exploit, his play has suffered. And thats started around 2019 , 2020.

From USA Today- 'We have moved decisively from the days of the Legion of Boom, and single-high safety coverage as the NFL’s default. In 2016, there were 4,445 passing attempts in which opposing defenses were in Cover-2, 2-Man, Cover-4, or Cover-6. In 2022, there were 6,838 such passing attempts. That’s 32.9% of all passing attempts in 2016, and 36% of all passing attempts in 2022. Defenses would rather allow the underneath stuff than force one safety to go single-hat too much of the time — and when you add different pressure concepts without blitzing, and all that press coverage, you’re starting to draw a pattern of the ideal modern defense.

Quarterbacks were generally far less effective against two-deep coverage in 2022, and no defense put opposing quarterbacks in a vise more often than the one belonging to the San Francisco 49ers, who allowed four touchdown passes and picked off 16 passes when in Cover-2, 2-Man, Cover-4, or Cover-6. Even the great Patrick Mahomes found these coverages to be most unappealing. '

Russ's game will continue to struggle as long as defenses sit in the exact place he wants to go and has made his career going. Its why he barely broke 3000 yards last year. When the deep plays are gone, he doesnt have the game to break down a defense with the quick read stuff.

Time will continue to show thats the case.

We can agree to disagree.

 

[Lagartixa]

I'm trying to imagine how it's possible to cherry-pick so well that Wilson ends up in the top five in the league more than twice in his career, and how to put him among the top two QBs in the league in any single season. Even in the 2015 season, when Newton won the MVP, while it's true Wilson was clearly better than Newton, both Dalton and Palmer were even better. Wilson absolutely would have deserved the MVP if he'd performed in the first half of 2015 like he did in the magical second half, but he didn't, so while Newton winning was really stupid, both Dalton and especially Palmer have better reasons to be upset about it than Wilson has.

Wilson did a lot more as quarterback than any other player in Seahawks history, but he's still a long way from the Hall of Fame.

If Wilson were as great as his fans still believe he is, why would an NFL team take an all-time record $85M dead-money hit -- $53M in 2024 and $32M in 2025 -- to get away from him at a time when the cap is $255M?

 

[Lagartixa]

there is more like I said, yet you keep ignoring them. They had massive injuries all over the offense to crucial pieces. Why this keeps getting ignored is baffling. You then conflate things. I would argue it was a terrible trade as well.

Regardless I watched a ton of Denver games. He played better than many are saying as the numbers show and the eye test shows. He just didn’t fit what Payton wanted at the position.

[Boldface and color emphasis is mine]

That's exactly what we're saying. Payton needs a quarterback who can read a defense, set the protections (being among the leaders in sack percentage for 12 seasons in a row makes it just about impossible for it to be the fault of all those offensive lines, plus we saw those same linemen have better sack-prevention results with other quarterbacks), make post-snap reads and execute plays as designed. Wilson simply doesn't do that. The one time I remember Wilson playing like a real NFL quarterback and not just a great improviser is in the second half of 2015. I could be misremembering, but I think Wilson was even getting rid of the ball quickly in the magical second half of 2015. In the rest of his career, Wilson has been among the league uh... "leaders" in holding on to the ball too damn long.

The way I see it, it's not quite right to say Wilson has been completely unable to execute an offense his entire career. At least the way I remember it, he did a pretty good job of it in the second half of 2015. It doesn't matter much whether he's actually incapable at this point of getting the ball out quickly, as it has seemed for several seasons (indeed, for his whole career except the second half of 2015), or if he's capable but just unwilling to do it. The on-the-field result is the same. Sacks, sacks, sacks.
Russellettes like to cite the three things Wilson does well: completion percentage, TD%, and INT%. They also like passer rating, which only takes those same things into account. More-comprehensive single stats like ANY/A, QBR, DVOA that take into account things like down and distance (a three-yard completion is worth a lot more on third-and-two than on third-and-12 or even first-and-10), success%, and the Wilson-special sacks, sacks, sacks, you get assessments that are closer to his team's on-the-field results.

Regardless I watched a ton of Denver games. He played better than many are saying as the numbers show and the eye test shows.

I wanted to go back to this part. It's easy for a fan of Wilson to say he played "better than many are saying." It's easy for me (or the entire Broncos fan base or everyone on Xitter or even Spongebob's pal Patrick) to say "the stats don't capture how truly bad he has been for a few years now." None of us has any skin in the game, so it's easy for us to say one thing or the other.
Who did have skin in the game? The Denver Broncos did. Up to $245M of contract skin plus the hundreds of millions in "skin" driven by on-the-field success or failure. And what did the Broncos do? After seeing two seasons of Wilson's "better-than-many-are-saying" performance in practices and games, they made the enormous decision to set an all-time history-of-the-league record for dead money because they determined that their roster with an $85M hole in the cap and without Wilson would be better than their roster without all that dead money, but with Wilson on the team. Those who had the most to lose from a bad decision and the most to gain from a good one analyzed the situation and determined that the "addition by subtraction" from getting rid of Wilson was worth setting an all-time record by burning more than $85M of cap space. Yikes.