Sean Payton Was Toxic in Denver, Not Russell Wilson?

[Aircrew]

Agree.

Peyton did what im sure the LOB circa 2014, 2015 WISH Pete had done.

Folks seem to not factor in that by all accounts, long before he landed in Denver, Russ wasnt held accoubtable for his poor play. Pete just reasoned his way around it and made the team... the 52 guys who WERE executing the plays properly (especially the 11 who had to constantly make up for mistakes on offense) go along with it. Whats worse, is not only was Russ not held accountable, but he actually stepped into a media spotlight that fell in love with his highlight reel (oft unnecessary heroics) and reasoned that HE was the savior of a team that frequentky required his unique skill.

That bred in Russ the hyper 'Me3' dilussional self image that Russ grew into and then wore like a pinstripe suit in Denver.

That is WORSE than elitist. People have to give a guy like A Rodgers berth to be a prick and 'elitist' because (and i hate admitting it) he is arguably one of the best 3 or 4 qbs to ever play the game. So when you hear about his absurd antics and 'holier than thou' behavior, you maybe throw up in your mouth a little bit, slam him, and move on. But you know WHY the dude thinks his poop dont stink. And if you try to take out your frustration with him on the field, chances are, he will rip you a nee one.

The dressing down of Russ or whatever you want to call it ... im sure it was a calculated critique by a SP of a guy who SHOULD have been a whole lot better than he was to be carrying himself the way he did. Forget his entourage of support personnel and constant flashing of his media profile card, Russ would never even say that he WAS actually struggling to run the offense and instead, fell right back into the praise he was given by the media on those occassions when he pulled a rabbit out of his hat and won a game or two. The media wanted to say 'Russ was back'. Russ embraced it. Peyton? He was the only one being honest when he'd comment that certain games shouldnt have had to come down to heroic plays, or that heroic plays werent sustainable... nor often even necessary. - Remember the critiques of Russ's film by guys like Warner, who summed up his play with the statement - playing qb shouldnt have to be so hard [as hard as Russ often made it look]? SP watched that reality everyday with Russ and he wouldnt stand for it. And his QB wouldnt admit it.

Im sure Peyton was no more pissed and beyond fed up with the denialism Russ held on to than Sherm, ET, ADB and the rest were 10 years ago. He just had the balls and the platform to express it and ultimately do something about it.

I think a better article would be one that speculates as to what might have been if Pete, rather than creating the monster that Russ became, dished out the tough love himself and held a young Russ's feet to the fire. Maybe Russ would have learned to play the position in a more complete way. Maybe the seeds of resentment and distrust on the part of those players who felt undervalued because their coach DIDNT stand up for what was right on the 2013/14 dynasty teams never sprout.

SP wasnt the villain. He was just the leader who was forced to overcorrect for 11 years of unchecked hubris on the part of his qb making a mess of a franchise he was charged with fixing.

Great post, massive virtual fist bump, totally agree on all points. Your question about what might have been had Pete held him accountable is a good one and one that we'll all be discussing/debating for years to come. My .02 is that if Pete had done that, Russ would have folded like a lawn chair because he doesn't have the psychological strength or fortitude to take that kind of treatment. Pete was, and probably will be for a long time, the master of figuring out who his players were as humans and then providing the perfect environment they needed to be the best they could be. He knew Russ was fragile, but could be great if he was protected. The rub was, he inadvertently created a double standard within the locker room and it made guys like Sherman crazy (which I totally get). Russell Wilson is such an enigma. We'll never know, but I think if Russ had been drafted by ANY other team, he wouldn't have accomplished what he did under Pete Carrol. Human behavior is so fascinating to me, and guys like Pete Carrol who have deciphered it to the level that he has is nothing short of incredible. I hope an in depth documentary is done on the Pete Carrol Seahawks someday that delves really deep into what was happening behind the scenes.

 

[jammerhawk]

I have despised the Broncos and the AFC -W since Elway days, and wish them nothing but misery. I only hate the Rams more.

Two personalities both believing in their supposed natural superiorities, what could go wrong?

JS should have won the argument with PC and drafted Josh Allen instead of re-upping Wilson. Wilson has many obvious limitations which he doesn’t accept and the book is out on his game he’s been figured out. He’s been humbled though so maybe he’ll stay in his lane for a while. For him the end is closer than he thinks. Payton will continue to be an arrogant jerk, and will try to turn a rookie QB into an All Pro. Success on that front is rare.

 

[keasley45]

Analyst Calls Steelers QB Delusional

PITTSBURGH -- The Pittsburgh Steelers knew that signing quarterback Russell Wilson meant the entire NFL universe would chime in. The team is putting all their h

www.si.com

Ive used the word delusional to describe Russ many times and i think its accurate, as it seems he genuinely doesnt understand what it is he doesnt ubderstand (or refuses to acknowledge it) and approaches the game, his game, and his role on a team from a Russ - centric position, where he's the star and improving is just a matter of 'trying harder'.

Schlereth is a guy i emjoy listening to because he calls it pretty straight. Im sure the opinion he expresses in that article is not without a good bit of inside scoop from SP.

When you have someone who refuses to acknowledge true fault and wont improve, it can drive you mad to the point SP was last year.

The link to Schelreths podcast is in the article.

The writer disagrees, citing Russ as having improved as a pocket passer over his career. I personally dont see evidence at all of Russ getting better in thr pocket after his first read... at all. But... we shall see.

Looking forward to seeing what Russ does in Pittsburgh. Although i think its pretty obvious which way things are going to go.

 

[keasley45]

Great post, massive virtual fist bump, totally agree on all points. Your question about what might have been had Pete held him accountable is a good one and one that we'll all be discussing/debating for years to come. My .02 is that if Pete had done that, Russ would have folded like a lawn chair because he doesn't have the psychological strength or fortitude to take that kind of treatment. Pete was, and probably will be for a long time, the master of figuring out who his players were as humans and then providing the perfect environment they needed to be the best they could be. He knew Russ was fragile, but could be great if he was protected. The rub was, he inadvertently created a double standard within the locker room and it made guys like Sherman crazy (which I totally get). Russell Wilson is such an enigma. We'll never know, but I think if Russ had been drafted by ANY other team, he wouldn't have accomplished what he did under Pete Carrol. Human behavior is so fascinating to me, and guys like Pete Carrol who have deciphered it to the level that he has is nothing short of incredible. I hope an in depth documentary is done on the Pete Carrol Seahawks someday that delves really deep into what was happening behind the scenes.

Thanks. I dig the hunan psychology aspect of all of this as well. Fascinating stuff. Been addicted to studying it for 13 or so years now. Was just coincidence that Pete's culture based, psychology first approach started around the same time i started getting into it for work.

 

[Ozzy]

[Boldface and color emphasis is mine]

This is a great point. Rodgers responded to the suggestions he was getting old and expensive in Green Bay by winning league-MVP awards at ages 37 and 38 (his third and fourth, which should give him four more MVP awards in his career than the number of MVP votes Wilson will get in his career - Wilson will retire tied with me at zero votes). In Denver, Wilson responded to the perception that he was old, entitled, overrated, and expensive by confirming every aspect of that perception. The contrast is stark. One is an all-time great quarterback and a sure-fire first-ballot Hall of Fame inductee. The other thinks he is an all-time great, but is actually a national laughingstock.

Russ is a laughing stock who's career is trash? See that's where this stuff cracks me up and becomes goofy. So anyone who falls short of Rogers is terrible? Wilson is an all time great and has a decade of performing at the highest level in a league where the average career is less than 2 years. The MVP vote thing is a tired argument too as people only get 1 vote. Many would now argue that Wilson should've won it outright the year Cam won it. Again I get the Russ hate because of how things ended, him being out of touch at times etc but to say he's a laughing stock who's terrible is goofy. It just is.

 

[Palmegranite]

Great post, massive virtual fist bump, totally agree on all points. Your question about what might have been had Pete held him accountable is a good one and one that we'll all be discussing/debating for years to come. My .02 is that if Pete had done that, Russ would have folded like a lawn chair because he doesn't have the psychological strength or fortitude to take that kind of treatment. Pete was, and probably will be for a long time, the master of figuring out who his players were as humans and then providing the perfect environment they needed to be the best they could be. He knew Russ was fragile, but could be great if he was protected. The rub was, he inadvertently created a double standard within the locker room and it made guys like Sherman crazy (which I totally get). Russell Wilson is such an enigma. We'll never know, but I think if Russ had been drafted by ANY other team, he wouldn't have accomplished what he did under Pete Carrol. Human behavior is so fascinating to me, and guys like Pete Carrol who have deciphered it to the level that he has is nothing short of incredible. I hope an in depth documentary is done on the Pete Carrol Seahawks someday that delves really deep into what was happening behind the scenes.

Pete was a very positive coach. He emphasized the good things players did, not blast them and crticize them on the sidelines when they goofed up.

Russ was the player that exuded the positivity, and never give up attitude.
I really believe that having this positive mindset was critical to the Seahawks run of success.
Talent can take you so far, but when the coach is yelling at the players(Urban Meyer, Sean Peyton), or the players are giving the coach the finger, or reading a book during team meetings, it's a lost cause.

 

[knownone]

Russ is a laughing stock who's career is trash? See that's where this stuff cracks me up and becomes goofy. So anyone who falls short of Rogers is terrible? Wilson is an all time great and has a decade of performing at the highest level in a league where the average career is less than 2 years. The MVP vote thing is a tired argument too as people only get 1 vote. Many would now argue that Wilson should've won it outright the year Cam won it. Again I get the Russ hate because of how things ended, him being out of touch at times etc but to say he's a laughing stock who's terrible is goofy. It just is.

As far as I can tell, no one said Wilson's career is "trash" or that anyone short of Rodgers is "terrible." So, the "goofy" parts seem to be in your imagination.

Lagartixa is correct. Russ has been a laughingstock over the past two seasons. He put a bullseye on his back, positioning himself in that elite-of-the-elite tier of QBs, publically demanding their level of authority within the offense and organization. He got that power and failed miserably. In Seattle, it was Pete's fault Russ couldn't cook. In Denver, it was initially Nat Hackett's fault. Now, the team was injured, and Sean Payton didn't like him.

The real goofiness is people defending Russ's last three years like he hasn't fallen flat on his face.

 

[Lagartixa]

Russ is a laughing stock who's career is trash?

I never said Wilson's career is trash. When you start with a strawman, it's a pretty good indicator you've got nothing. There's a lot of room between "is trash" and "thinks he's headed for the Hall of Fame, but is a laughingstock." Wilson is still the best quarterback the Seahawks have had.

See that's where this stuff cracks me up and becomes goofy. So anyone who falls short of Rogers is terrible?

Obviously not. Rodgers is probably one of the top five quarterbacks of all time. Wilson is a guy who was pretty good in the NFL for several years. Not good enough to ever make first-team All-Pro or get an MVP vote, but certainly good enough to be a starter for a decade. That's not terrible. It's also very, very far from the Hall of Fame.

Wilson is an all time great and has a decade of performing at the highest level in a league where the average career is less than 2 years.

Put him in the Hall of the Very-Good-for-a-While. Let's keep the Hall of Fame for the truly outstanding players. Wilson was a decent-to-good quarterback for a decade and made hundreds of millions of dollars from it. He is still tied with you and me in career NFL MVP votes. How many other "all-time greats" never got a single MVP vote and never made first-team All-Pro?

The MVP vote thing is a tired argument too as people only get 1 vote. Many would now argue that Wilson should've won it outright the year Cam won it.

Wilson was definitely better than Newton in 2015. But Palmer and Dalton were both better than both of those guys.

Again I get the Russ hate because of how things ended, him being out of touch at times etc but to say he's a laughing stock who's terrible is goofy. It just is.

How can anyone claim Wilson is not a laughingstock when the guy gets clowned by A KICKER?!




Summarizing, to try to avoid future strawmen:
Wilson was a decent-to-good NFL QB for a decade, and performed way beyond what any previous Seahawks quarterback had ever done. He thinks he's an all-time great headed for the Hall of Fame.
As @knownone pointed out in the post linked here, given the public perception of Wilson as overrated, aging, and entitled, Wilson could have shut up all his critics by simply balling out. The example is Rodgers, who was seen as aging, overpaid, and entited, and his response was to win back-to-back MVP awards. That's what a true all-time great does. Wilson's response to the situation was different. Instead of playing like the MVP he believes he is, he was a bottom-three-in-the-league quarterback for one season and a sixth-octile starting quarterback for another. One of the two responded like the all-time great he is. The other couldn't do that because he's not an all-time great.

 

[Palmegranite]

I don't know if Rodgers is the best example for rebuttal.

Prickly, opinionated, then sidelined after 4 plays last year.
This year? Skips the mandatory camp for "some event very important to him".

What a leader he is!

 

[Lagartixa]

I don't know if Rodgers is the best example for rebuttal.

Prickly, opinionated, then sidelined after 4 plays last year.
This year? Skips the mandatory camp for "some event very important to him".

What a leader he is!

I think @knownone's choice of Rodgers for contrast was inspired. Rodgers is a player whose public image has been less than positive, to the point of being a "heel" or "bad-guy" figure for a lot of fans. A despised and seen-as-entitled player who was able to respond to the hate with back-to-back MVP seasons in his late 30s is a perfect contrast to Wilson, the widely clowned and seen-as-entitled player who was unable to prove his critics wrong.

The thing is that this year, I don't think Rodgers has it in him to perform at a level that would make acquiring and paying him look like anything but a failed gamble. Both he and Wilson will have chances to prove me wrong, but I don't think either of them is going to perform at a top-of-the-league level over the whole season. Rodgers is about to play his age-41 season after missing almost all of his age-40 season with an injury. Wilson hasn't been a top-50%-of-the-league QB for two and a half seasons, and I don't think it's likely he'll learn to be a different QB than he has been. The best possibility I see for him is if Tomlin and the Stealers' OC learn from history that there's only one proven way to get on-the-field value out of Wilson and therefore force the team to play Russball. Unfortunately for the Stealers, that's probably not the best possibility for the team's success this season and especially in other seasons in the near future.

 

[knownone]

Rodgers is the perfect comparison. @Lagartixa mentioned the off-field comparison, so I'll focus on the team situation.

When Matt LaFleur took over in 2019, the Packers had every intention of moving on from Rodgers the following season. They gave him very little help at receiver, drafted his replacement in the first round after going 13-3, and wanted him to play within a system that didn't suit his skill set. Unlike Russ, Rodgers performed exceptionally well (largely playing outside of LaFleur's system) and forced the Packers' hand, ultimately earning a contract extension despite the completely sour relationship.

In contrast, Russ actively campaigned for Sean Payton this last offseason; their relationship soured almost immediately, setting the stage for a scenario similar to Rodgers—one where his play on the field could dictate his fate. Unfortunately, Wilson's performance was poor enough for Denver to eat one of the biggest cap hits in history to get rid of him.

Both are similar scenarios: aging QBs with coaches who don't want them, yet they resulted in vastly different outcomes.

 

[Lagartixa]

Analyst Calls Steelers QB Delusional

PITTSBURGH -- The Pittsburgh Steelers knew that signing quarterback Russell Wilson meant the entire NFL universe would chime in. The team is putting all their h

www.si.com

Ive used the word delusional to describe Russ many times and i think its accurate, as it seems he genuinely doesnt understand what it is he doesnt ubderstand (or refuses to acknowledge it) and approaches the game, his game, and his role on a team from a Russ - centric position, where he's the star and improving is just a matter of 'trying harder'.

Schlereth is a guy i emjoy listening to because he calls it pretty straight. Im sure the opinion he expresses in that article is not without a good bit of inside scoop from SP.

When you have someone who refuses to acknowledge true fault and wont improve, it can drive you mad to the point SP was last year.

The link to Schelreths podcast is in the article.

The writer disagrees, citing Russ as having improved as a pocket passer over his career. I personally dont see evidence at all of Russ getting better in thr pocket after his first read... at all. But... we shall see.

Looking forward to seeing what Russ does in Pittsburgh. Although i think its pretty obvious which way things are going to go.

What I found most interesting about what (it was reported) Schlereth said was where Schlereth was quoted as disagreeing with those who say Wilson has lost athleticism and can't move anymore. According to Schlereth, that isn't the problem.

 

[Ozzy]

I never said Wilson's career is trash. When you start with a strawman, it's a pretty good indicator you've got nothing. There's a lot of room between "is trash" and "thinks he's headed for the Hall of Fame, but is a laughingstock." Wilson is still the best quarterback the Seahawks have had.



Obviously not. Rodgers is probably one of the top five quarterbacks of all time. Wilson is a guy who was pretty good in the NFL for several years. Not good enough to ever make first-team All-Pro or get an MVP vote, but certainly good enough to be a starter for a decade. That's not terrible. It's also very, very far from the Hall of Fame.



Put him in the Hall of the Very-Good-for-a-While. Let's keep the Hall of Fame for the truly outstanding players. Wilson was a decent-to-good quarterback for a decade and made hundreds of millions of dollars from it. He is still tied with you and me in career NFL MVP votes. How many other "all-time greats" never got a single MVP vote and never made first-team All-Pro?



Wilson was definitely better than Newton in 2015. But Palmer and Dalton were both better than both of those guys.



How can anyone claim Wilson is not a laughingstock when the guy gets clowned by A KICKER?!




Summarizing, to try to avoid future strawmen:
Wilson was a decent-to-good NFL QB for a decade, and performed way beyond what any previous Seahawks quarterback had ever done. He thinks he's an all-time great headed for the Hall of Fame.
As @knownone pointed out in the post linked here, given the public perception of Wilson as overrated, aging, and entitled, Wilson could have shut up all his critics by simply balling out. The example is Rodgers, who was seen as aging, overpaid, and entited, and his response was to win back-to-back MVP awards. That's what a true all-time great does. Wilson's response to the situation was different. Instead of playing like the MVP he believes he is, he was a bottom-three-in-the-league quarterback for one season and a sixth-octile starting quarterback for another. One of the two responded like the all-time great he is. The other couldn't do that because he's not an all-time great.

For 10 years he was at the top of almost every I foe statistical category, had as much post season success as anyone outside of Tom Bradwith two SB’s and winning one. That is HOF lock historically in this league, to say he was merely hall of good is just flat out wrong. Even last year the year he was a so called laughing stock he had more touchdowns than Geno and it wasn’t really close. He went 26-8 with a 94 passer rating in an offense with almost no surrounding talent. That’s the worst he can do and he’s merely just mediocre? I’ll still argue on here that people have made it personal with Russ and because they hate him they come up with goofy takes trying to convince themselves he wasn’t that good.

 

[Ozzy]

Rodgers is the perfect comparison. @Lagartixa mentioned the off-field comparison, so I'll focus on the team situation.

When Matt LaFleur took over in 2019, the Packers had every intention of moving on from Rodgers the following season. They gave him very little help at receiver, drafted his replacement in the first round after going 13-3, and wanted him to play within a system that didn't suit his skill set. Unlike Russ, Rodgers performed exceptionally well (largely playing outside of LaFleur's system) and forced the Packers' hand, ultimately earning a contract extension despite the completely sour relationship.

In contrast, Russ actively campaigned for Sean Payton this last offseason; their relationship soured almost immediately, setting the stage for a scenario similar to Rodgers—one where his play on the field could dictate his fate. Unfortunately, Wilson's performance was poor enough for Denver to eat one of the biggest cap hits in history to get rid of him.

Both are similar scenarios: aging QBs with coaches who don't want them, yet they resulted in vastly different outcomes.

Why leave out details that affect the outcome though? When we discuss Geno we talk about injuries, the offensive line, Waldron etc. Russ lost his running back and 3 of his top receivers and yet the same people making those arguments for Geno strangely leave them out when discussing Russ. I’ll believe a lot of this stuff isn’t biased when the critical side of Russ at least acknowledges some things were out of his control that hurt the offense.

 

[Ozzy]

As far as I can tell, no one said Wilson's career is "trash" or that anyone short of Rodgers is "terrible." So, the "goofy" parts seem to be in your imagination.

Lagartixa is correct. Russ has been a laughingstock over the past two seasons. He put a bullseye on his back, positioning himself in that elite-of-the-elite tier of QBs, publically demanding their level of authority within the offense and organization. He got that power and failed miserably. In Seattle, it was Pete's fault Russ couldn't cook. In Denver, it was initially Nat Hackett's fault. Now, the team was injured, and Sean Payton didn't like him.
The real goofiness is people defending Russ's last three years like he hasn't fallen flat on his face.

26-8 with a 94 passer rating was as good as Geno last year so then you’d consider Geno falling flat on his face?

I’ll never get the “laughing stock” stuff because it reeks of groupthink nonsense. Strangely his teammates in Denver all speak highly of him and still do yet I was also told everyone in the league hates him.

 

[Aircrew]

26-8 with a 94 passer rating was as good as Geno last year so then you’d consider Geno falling flat on his face?

I’ll never get the “laughing stock” stuff because it reeks of groupthink nonsense. Strangely his teammates in Denver all speak highly of him and still do yet I was also told everyone in the league hates him.

Are you really the guy who bites off on stats and whiffs on the big picture? If so, do you must still fall for the thumb trick your uncle busts out at the family bbq.

 

[Ozzy]

Are you really the guy who bites off on stats and whiffs on the big picture? If so, do you must still fall for the thumb trick your uncle busts out at the family bbq.

Now come on I’m one of the few who actually discussed the whole picture. We make a ton of excuses for the guys we like like injuries, surrounding cast, play callers etc but when it’s a guy we hate we do a 180 and strangely don’t use those same arguments.

Russ wasn’t the same player the past 3 years as he was in his prime. That’s a fact. I think it’s fairly objective to say he had a GREAT career in Seattle. Maybe that makes me the crazy one, it appears so lol.

 

[Aircrew]

Now come on I’m one of the few who actually discussed the whole picture. We make a ton of excuses for the guys we like like injuries, surrounding cast, play callers etc but when it’s a guy we hate we do a 180 and strangely don’t use those same arguments.

Russ wasn’t the same player the past 3 years as he was in his prime. That’s a fact. I think it’s fairly objective to say he had a GREAT career in Seattle. Maybe that makes me the crazy one, it appears so lol.

Don't disagree with the first point, we do look the other way when it's someone we like but conveniently turn a blind eye when it's someone we don't. And and agreed on your second point, he wasn't the same guy the last 3 seasons and he did do really well in Seattle overall.

BUT, it's a bit more complicated than that, isn't it? I mean, I know it's in everyone's nature to try and make things black and white simple, when in reality life is always more layers of grey. Russ's time in Seattle, while good, had several undercurrents and side plots that really undermine his intended image and persona because of who he actually was behind closed doors. And that person was an agenda driven, narcissistic, lizard-like sociopath who only cared about HIS "legacy" and "brand" and "fame" and "stardom" than being a good teammate. He threw his O-line under the bus. He tried to have Pete Carrol fired and replaced. He tried to have John Schneider fired and replaced. He went through 3 Offensive Coordinators. Oh, and by the way, he called an an audible in XLIX from a run to a pass (to be the hero, IMO) only to then proceed to throw a pick and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory (don't believe me? Go listen to the Sherman/Lynch podcast). And all the while, completely shirk ANY responsiblity and/or accountability.

And maybe I'm the crazy one, not you. I just come from a place that holds a person accountable for their entire body of work, not just the highlights. And Russell's body of work is murky, at best. He did alot of good, no denying that, but he also did a lot of selfish damage. I just can't find it in me to praise a guy like that, just call him what he was: a self interested prick.

 

[Ozzy]

Don't disagree with the first point, we do look the other way when it's someone we like but conveniently turn a blind eye when it's someone we don't. And and agreed on your second point, he wasn't the same guy the last 3 seasons and he did do really well in Seattle overall.

BUT, it's a bit more complicated than that, isn't it? I mean, I know it's in everyone's nature to try and make things black and white simple, when in reality life is always more layers of grey. Russ's time in Seattle, while good, had several undercurrents and side plots that really undermine his intended image and persona because of who he actually was behind closed doors. And that person was an agenda driven, narcissistic, lizard-like sociopath who only cared about HIS "legacy" and "brand" and "fame" and "stardom" than being a good teammate. He threw his O-line under the bus. He tried to have Pete Carrol fired and replaced. He tried to have John Schneider fired and replaced. He went through 3 Offensive Coordinators. Oh, and by the way, he called an an audible in XLIX from a run to a pass (to be the hero, IMO) only to then proceed to throw a pick and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory (don't believe me? Go listen to the Sherman/Lynch podcast). And all the while, completely shirk ANY responsiblity and/or accountability.

And maybe I'm the crazy one, not you. I just come from a place that holds a person accountable for their entire body of work, not just the highlights. And Russell's body of work is murky, at best. He did alot of good, no denying that, but he also did a lot of selfish damage. I just can't find it in me to praise a guy like that, just call him what he was: a self interested prick.

I think the selfish prick stuff is wildly overstated but again I’m biased because I’ve talked to people who’ve met him and they all rave that he’s a great dude. I hated some of the stuff he did at the end. I don’t think he was all wrong about Pete and the rest of the league appears to agree but that’s a conversation for another thread.

I think Russ was incredible during his prime but if others don’t I’m probably not going to convince anyone and that’s ok everyone is entitled to their opinion and it’s all an exercise in subjective futility. That’s what makes being a fan fun.

 

[IndyHawk]

I couldn't add to all this right?


Looks like he'll be boxing next year at 37 years old.