Sam

[glenwo2]

Mehhh

You mean "Stat Mehhh'se"

 

[glenwo2]

I thought Sam played well. Not great but good. Good enough to win. Had this been another team with a better D or better OLine there could have been a veery different outcome. Missing Barner on the 4th and 1 early and then later a wide open Charbonnet on the goal line were pretty glaring. Thankfully it didn't come back to bite him.

Yeah. Doesn't Sam realize that every other QB in this league doesn't miss guys in the passing game?

 

[sutz]

You can say that stats don't lie, but Mark Twain said there are 3 kinds of lies: white lies, damn lies, and statistics.

 

[SeaWolv]

Yeah. Doesn't Sam realize that every other QB in this league doesn't miss guys in the passing game?

View attachment 77242

Never said they didn’t. This isn’t a slam Sam post but there many here ready to anoint him as on par with Burrow or Allen and he’s not. Burrow and Allen would have made one if not both of those reads. He is better than Geno though and probably a top 10 QB in the league.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

You are 100% correct (about me, I can't speak for Keasley).

I'm not really much of a Geno fan. I just think he was criticized far more harshly than his play on the field really deserved last season based on what he had to work with. Which again, was one of the worst OL's in the league. Totally ineffective running game. Probably the worst OC in the league. One of the most pass happy, one dimensional offenses in the league. The situation he was in was bad. Really bad. And yet he still managed to put up some up some pretty admirable numbers considering that both his OL and scheme were pretty much a dysfunctional mess. Quite frankly, I think Geno was treated pretty unfairly by a lot of Seahawks fans, but I guess having that opinion makes me a Geno nut hugger. Oh well.

Ultimately, I'm glad we moved on. I like Darnold and think he's done a very good job for us overall. I'm also very glad that the OL has played much better overall, our running game is far more effective, and our OC is actually competent enough to run an NFL offense. Those things make a huge difference to the success or failure of a QB.

Darnold is also significantly younger, significantly cheaper, and much more mature, making him a much more viable QBOTF candidate in people's eyes. This is why similar levels of production and turnovers get different responses. And I can't exactly criticize that. There was no way Seattle was going to benefit from signing a 36-year-old Geno to the money he wanted.

Whether or Darnold wins a Super Bowl or not, he was the best possible signing for Schneider this year. The team needed to stay competitive, not tank for a high pick and drive both our superstar players and our paying fans away.

 

[Torc]

Never said they didn’t. This isn’t a slam Sam post but there many here ready to anoint him as on par with Burrow or Allen and he’s not. Burrow and Allen would have made one if not both of those reads. He is better than Geno though and probably a top 10 QB in the league.

I have not seen a single post ready to put him up with Burrow or Allen. The most complimentary I've seen is that he might be a top 10 QB. Which means 9 or 10 - if they meant higher they'd say top 5.

 

[glenwo2]

Never said they didn’t. This isn’t a slam Sam post but there many here ready to anoint him as on par with Burrow or Allen and he’s not. Burrow and Allen would have made one if not both of those reads. He is better than Geno though and probably a top 10 QB in the league.

Who in god's name said this?

I'm the biggest Darnold stan around and I never would say something so crazy (and I've said some crazy shit at times).

Please point me to the comments where you saw this so I can laugh.

Thanks.

 

[glenwo2]

I have not seen a single post ready to put him up with Burrow or Allen. The most complimentary I've seen is that he might be a top 10 QB. Which means 9 or 10 - if they meant higher they'd say top 5.

This. I would love to see who said this (IF this was true) so I can ask what in the hell were they thinking.

But I think SeaWolv may be embellishing things just a tad.

 

[keasley45]

So.............when Geno was a "turnover machine" it was not his fault, most of the picks were on someone else, etc.
So.............when Sam is a "turnover machine" it's all his fault. Got it.

Please show me HUGE games that Geno won against playoff contenders.

In what world did Geno not turn it over as much as Darnold? He had 15 picks and 9 fumbles in 15 games. Darnold has been light years better than Geno was last year and its not remotely close. I'm honestly baffled you made the argument Geno was better last year than Darnold has been this year. I'm at a loss here man so I'll just say agree to disagree.

From the quoted article, so that i dont get blasted for being pro-Geno -

Final Grade: B​

While he didn't quite reach his breakout numbers from 2022 in some regards, Smith enjoyed another stellar season even with pass protection consistently failing in front of him and the run game regularly becoming an afterthought with Grubb at the controls. As Macdonald pointed out after the season concluded, his high interception totals aren't acceptable and both he and the quarterback will be doing work behind the scenes to figure out how to avoid a repeat in 2025.

With that said, Smith's interception issues have to be taken with context in a one-dimensional scheme that did little to help him. 13 of those 15 picks came while under duress, and he finished the season with the fifth-lowest pressure rate credited to him as a quarterback (eight percent), indicating that those results were largely a consequence of an offensive line that functioned like a turnstile allowing defenders to penetrate the pocket with ease rather than him holding onto the ball too long.

End quote

Another data point: Rating given time to throw -

Top 10 NFL quarterbacks by time to throw in 2024

Having time to throw can be a double-edged sword. While some quarterbacks use it to wear down coverage defenders, it can lead to pressure and drive-ending sacks.

www.pff.com

Geno was top 10 in both categories (rating over and under 2.5 seconds). Sam played last year. His team finished 14-3. He isnt better than Geno in either category, nor is he top 10 in either.

Sam has 20 TO despite being given all of the tools Geno never had.. Smith tossed 15 INTS to Sam's 14 with no fumbles, despite throwing the ball 100 times more and running pass plays vs run at a league leading clip. It was literally unanimous that we fielded the most pass heavy, vanilla, predictable offenses in the league last year. All the things we now say Sam needs to succeed, Smith went 17 games without (PA, under center plays, run support, protection) And still Smith was one of the best QBs in the league under pressue. Sam? he is unanimously not remotely the same QB under pressure and doesnt rank close to what Geno did with often no protection.

And even in that horrid offense last year, Smith was better than Sam this year in accuracy, adjusted accuracy, TO percentage, Big Time throw % and was one of only a handful of QBS in the league to be top 10 in pressure before and after 2.4 seconds in the pocket.

So i ask you - if one QB is given literally garbage for a run game, offensive line, has the most predictable offense in the league where he is basically a sitting duck out of shotgun 90% of the time, gets little benefit from called PA, is rarely under center, is pressured near most in the league and who's OC was fired and throws 15 INTS and you have another QB who has a top rated pass protecting O line, a balanaced offense and efficient run game, has the benefit of PA and under center calls, and who's OC is garnering HC's attention, and has 14INTs and 6 additional turnovers despite touching the ball significantly less, which one would YOU think was better?

Geno, even last year was one of the most accurate QBs in the league - top 6 i think.

There is no statistical category where if you would actually take the time to consider context and adjust for O line, quality of play calls, run game effectiveness and overall team strength, you can say Geno wouldnt stand a pretty good chance to do better than he had, and Sam would be significantly worse. Sam's number's say he is not great when the pressure gets turned up. Well, if he was here in 2024 and played in an offense that was one of the worst in pass pro, how do you think he would look?

Sam's numbers are what they are on one of the best all around teams and offensive staffs in the league and they STILL cant keep him from turning the ball over.

I will say that I get the sense that Sam is a better , more mature leader than Geno was and that counts for a lot.

Those are just facts.

And none of that is to say that Sam isnt a really good QB. He can be rediculously accurate. He can escape pressure when he wants. He can make every throw and he has a strong arm. He also runs through his reads really well. If we werent going to have Smith here, Sam is a great guy to have. And if he cleans up his game, he will stand to get better. He is 28, but has only really benefited from 3 years of solid coaching so it stands to reason he can get better.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

That's cool. Thread is really about Sam, and he's better than Geno. I won't budge on that.

Go Hawks

 

[Ozzy]

From the quoted article, so that i dont get blasted for being pro-Geno -

Final Grade: B​

While he didn't quite reach his breakout numbers from 2022 in some regards, Smith enjoyed another stellar season even with pass protection consistently failing in front of him and the run game regularly becoming an afterthought with Grubb at the controls. As Macdonald pointed out after the season concluded, his high interception totals aren't acceptable and both he and the quarterback will be doing work behind the scenes to figure out how to avoid a repeat in 2025.

With that said, Smith's interception issues have to be taken with context in a one-dimensional scheme that did little to help him. 13 of those 15 picks came while under duress, and he finished the season with the fifth-lowest pressure rate credited to him as a quarterback (eight percent), indicating that those results were largely a consequence of an offensive line that functioned like a turnstile allowing defenders to penetrate the pocket with ease rather than him holding onto the ball too long.

End quote

Another data point: Rating given time to throw -

Top 10 NFL quarterbacks by time to throw in 2024

Having time to throw can be a double-edged sword. While some quarterbacks use it to wear down coverage defenders, it can lead to pressure and drive-ending sacks.

www.pff.com

Geno was top 10 in both categories (rating over and under 2.5 seconds). Sam played last year. His team finished 14-3. He isnt better than Geno in either category, nor is he top 10 in either.

Sam has 20 TO despite being given all of the tools Geno never had.. Smith tossed 15 INTS to Sam's 14 with no fumbles, despite throwing the ball 100 times more and running pass plays vs run at a league leading clip. It was literally unanimous that we fielded the most pass heavy, vanilla, predictable offenses in the league last year. All the things we now say Sam needs to succeed, Smith went 17 games without (PA, under center plays, run support, protection) And still Smith was one of the best QBs in the league under pressue. Sam? he is unanimously not remotely the same QB under pressure and doesnt rank close to what Geno did with often no protection.

And even in that horrid offense last year, Smith was better than Sam this year in accuracy, adjusted accuracy, TO percentage, Big Time throw % and was one of only a handful of QBS in the league to be top 10 in pressure before and after 2.4 seconds in the pocket.

So i ask you - if one QB is given literally garbage for a run game, offensive line, has the most predictable offense in the league where he is basically a sitting duck out of shotgun 90% of the time, gets little benefit from called PA, is rarely under center, is pressured near most in the league and who's OC was fired and throws 15 INTS and you have another QB who has a top rated pass protecting O line, a balanaced offense and efficient run game, has the benefit of PA and under center calls, and who's OC is garnering HC's attention, and has 14INTs and 6 additional turnovers despite touching the ball significantly less, which one would YOU think was better?

Geno, even last year was one of the most accurate QBs in the league - top 6 i think.

There is no statistical category where if you would actually take the time to consider context and adjust for O line, quality of play calls, run game effectiveness and overall team strength, you can say Geno wouldnt stand a pretty good chance to do better than he had, and Sam would be significantly worse. Sam's number's say he is not great when the pressure gets turned up. Well, if he was here in 2024 and played in an offense that was one of the worst in pass pro, how do you think he would look?

Sam's numbers are what they are on one of the best all around teams and offensive staffs in the league and they STILL cant keep him from turning the ball over.

I will say that I get the sense that Sam is a better , more mature leader than Geno was and that counts for a lot.

Those are just facts.

And none of that is to say that Sam isnt a really good QB. He can be rediculously accurate. He can escape pressure when he wants. He can make every throw and he has a strong arm. He also runs through his reads really well. If we werent going to have Smith here, Sam is a great guy to have. And if he cleans up his game, he will stand to get better. He is 28, but has only really benefited from 3 years of solid coaching so it stands to reason he can get better.

They're not facts though. Sure Geno is accurate. So is Joe Browning but he's not a good QB. There is so much more that goes into being a good QB that you focusing on one metric out of dozens is why I think you get so off base with Geno and always have.

Geno appears to be a horrible leader, was terrible in the red zone with DK who Sam doesn't have, and made more turnovers in critical areas than Sam does too. He's just not very good and wasn't very good in Seattle last year either.

Also Geno benefited for half the year from the same things you say is the reason Sam is doing better. Seattles defense the second half of the year was very, very good. The line also improved late in the year too yet Geno didn't seem to benefit from either.

I think your starting point is where you get off base. You paint a picture that all the failures were everything BUT Geno. I think many of the problems were because of him as well. When you assume he's great and it was everything else I don't think anything can move you off your stance and that's a flawed starting point.

Was everything not Geno's fault this year too? I mean he had an all time head coach right? He had an elite running back, he had an elite TE and a coach many think is good in Kelly with multiple elite offenses in his past.

I don't want to keep beating a dead horse as we've gone many rounds on Geno and again none of this is personal, you post some really good stuff to the board that I appreciate, we just don't view Geno the same and that's ok for you and me.

 

[Ozzy]

And PFF is trash. They have Byron Murphy has one of the worst graded DT's in the league and he might be first or second team all pro. I put zero stock into their grades of Geno or anyone else.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

I won't say what PFF stands for in my mind.

Go Hawks

 

[Natethegreat]

Darnold is also significantly younger, significantly cheaper, and much more mature, making him a much more viable QBOTF candidate in people's eyes. This is why similar levels of production and turnovers get different responses. And I can't exactly criticize that. There was no way Seattle was going to benefit from signing a 36-year-old Geno to the money he wanted.

Whether or Darnold wins a Super Bowl or not, he was the best possible signing for Schneider this year. The team needed to stay competitive, not tank for a high pick and drive both our superstar players and our paying fans away.

Exactly, that is why I said I wasn't sold on Darnold but I understood the signing at the time.
I have changed my mind on Darnold at this point though.
Even if we lose in the playoffs.
He is a good QB capable of winning a lot of games and that gives us a shot at winning it all.

 

[keasley45]

So.............when Geno was a "turnover machine" it was not his fault, most of the picks were on someone else, etc.
So.............when Sam is a "turnover machine" it's all his fault. Got it.

Please show me HUGE games that Geno won against playoff contenders.

Soul - we didnt have an effective run game but for the first half of the first season he was here. we never had a good defense but for the 2nd half of the last season he was here. we never had a good OC. And we never had good o line play.

We won 10 games. If the running game sucked, the defense was bottom half of the league for all but the last 7 games, our o line was horrid, and our OC ended up fired, who would you say was responsible for our 10 wins last year? Grubbs superior play calling? Walker tearing up the ground game? The defense shutting down opponents? Basic process or elimination leads one to the QB.

 

[Natethegreat]

Soul - we didnt have an effective run game but for the first half of the first season he was here. we never had a good defense but for the 2nd half of the last season he was here. we never had a good OC. And we never had good o line play.

We won 10 games. If the running game sucked, the defense was bottom half of the league for all but the last 7 games, our o line was horrid, and our OC ended up fired, who would you say was responsible for our 10 wins last year? Grubbs superior play calling? Walker tearing up the ground game? The defense shutting down opponents? Basic process or elimination leads one to the QB.

Geno hasn't won anything in 12 years on multiple teams under multiple different O coordinaters.
You have a massive bias when it comes to Geno. He gets every excuse while Darnold gets none.
You have demonstrated this over and over. I get that you truly believe Geno is elite or close to it and he has had bad break after bad break.
You'll have to excuse those of us who believe Geno is a huge part of all those sacks and turnovers. Not his surroundings.

 

[Appyhawk]

We have Sam. We do not have Geno. I think the best we can do is try to help Sam improve, and improve what he has around and in front of him. I would change Keasley's view to 'he makes his reads' but leave off the "well". His reads are too frequently erratic and wrong. He still tends to try to throw the ball through linemen. But he is a smart guy so I feel confident he will continue to work on his own flaws and will improve. If he improves to threaten being top 5 we are headed for a very exciting future.

 

[Ad Hawk]

...But he is a smart guy so I feel confident he will continue to work on his own flaws and will improve. If he improves to threaten being top 5 we are headed for a very exciting future.

And that's really the question here... does past performance predict and/or ensure future results? The answer to that is...

???

If not, we still have a QB who can win a lot of games, but makes things harder with turnovers and increases fan heart rate and BP.

If the team around him improves, that makes his job easier (which appears to be the case as season rolls along).

If Sam does improve, everything is rosier, and there's less stress on everyone, including us.

Let's hope he does.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Soul - we didnt have an effective run game but for the first half of the first season he was here. we never had a good defense but for the 2nd half of the last season he was here. we never had a good OC. And we never had good o line play.

We won 10 games. If the running game sucked, the defense was bottom half of the league for all but the last 7 games, our o line was horrid, and our OC ended up fired, who would you say was responsible for our 10 wins last year? Grubbs superior play calling? Walker tearing up the ground game? The defense shutting down opponents? Basic process or elimination leads one to the QB.

Fair enough. Geno is in the past, he doesn't matter. Not even worth talking about. I realize that people are STILL talking about that other guy several years later. But......way more important things right now. Like the #1 seed and trying to make it back to the Super Bowl.
Geno is gone, time to let it go.


Sam is our QB, no matter if anyone likes it or not.

 

[glenwo2]

And PFF is trash. They have Byron Murphy has one of the worst graded DT's in the league and he might be first or second team all pro. I put zero stock into their grades of Geno or anyone else.

And the sky is blue.

I knew they were trash the moment I saw Brock Purdy graded at 76 and Sam graded at 60.