Russell Wilson a Tier two QB 6th overall in ESPN ranking

[TwistedHusky]

Fade,

That is EXACTLY why I wanted ex-Steeler OCs here. Instead, we got what we got.

But you make the argument that putting him in the Steeler system would massively impact his success and I agree.

Still, you do not get to be a Tier 1 QB until you produce results consistently.

The reason Wilson has so many comebacks is that he has so many games of doing very little in the 1st half and the defense keeping him in games. It isn't all Wilson magic, a lot of that is the defense keeping the other team down. But Wilson has gotten into shootouts where he held his own and won that way - so I don't know those issues are a weakness of Wilson so much as stupid strategy/tactics on the coaches.

Again though, great to have potential or excuses but you enter Tier 1 when you produce Results. Consistently, not just sometimes.

That said, put Rivers on this team and I think he does just as well. We would have no line still but Rivers would get the ball off quickly enough that it probably would not matter. I certainly think we win at least 1 if not 2 SBs and I imagine we would have gone farther in the playoffs those other times. But it is stupid conjecture because he isn't on this team. At the same point, to pretend that Wilson has not gotten a lot of help from the defense in all those wins is ridiculous.

Wilson clearly has more potential to be great than Rivers, but Rivers is a better QB based on the results right now. And he hasn't had the defense or coaching help (much less GM help) that Wilson has had. On that same note, putting Wentz over Wilson is crazy - there is not a big enough sample size yet. Wentz is a guy that put up good #s on a team where another guy put up good numbers too.

 

[UK_Seahawk]

Fade,

That is EXACTLY why I wanted ex-Steeler OCs here. Instead, we got what we got.

But you make the argument that putting him in the Steeler system would massively impact his success and I agree.

Still, you do not get to be a Tier 1 QB until you produce results consistently.

The reason Wilson has so many comebacks is that he has so many games of doing very little in the 1st half and the defense keeping him in games. It isn't all Wilson magic, a lot of that is the defense keeping the other team down. But Wilson has gotten into shootouts where he held his own and won that way - so I don't know those issues are a weakness of Wilson so much as stupid strategy/tactics on the coaches.

Again though, great to have potential or excuses but you enter Tier 1 when you produce Results. Consistently, not just sometimes.

That said, put Rivers on this team and I think he does just as well. We would have no line still but Rivers would get the ball off quickly enough that it probably would not matter. I certainly think we win at least 1 if not 2 SBs and I imagine we would have gone farther in the playoffs those other times. But it is stupid conjecture because he isn't on this team. At the same point, to pretend that Wilson has not gotten a lot of help from the defense in all those wins is ridiculous.

Wilson clearly has more potential to be great than Rivers, but Rivers is a better QB based on the results right now. And he hasn't had the defense or coaching help (much less GM help) that Wilson has had. On that same note, putting Wentz over Wilson is crazy - there is not a big enough sample size yet. Wentz is a guy that put up good #s on a team where another guy put up good numbers too.

An alternative view....

[tweet]https://twitter.com/TheHerd/status/1022180178435309568[/tweet]

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Rivers is better than Wilson? :34853_doh:

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The stats certainly prove Colin correct, but IMO Russell still isn't in Rodgers/Brady/Brees land where he can take over an entire game or season.

He still starts games cold and inaccurate, and needs to get into the 2nd half before he's in rhythm and tempo.......thus his insanely great 4th quarter stats, but poor 1st and 2nd quarter production.

Maybe we'll see more consistency with Shottenheimer, so that's something I'll retract if I see a more consistent Russell this year. But as of now? I think top of tier 2 is accurate.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Homer or not, I have him right at 4 or 5, and I'm plenty good with that. And he's going to get better.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

He still starts games cold and inaccurate, and needs to get into the 2nd half before he's in rhythm and tempo.......thus his insanely great 4th quarter stats, but poor 1st and 2nd quarter production.

I tend to think it's because Wilson just plays really conservative in the first half and goes balls-out in the second because the game tends to be on the line. Which has melded well with Pete Carroll's philosophy. That's where Schotty is going to have to adapt to his surroundings, not the other way around.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

He still starts games cold and inaccurate, and needs to get into the 2nd half before he's in rhythm and tempo.......thus his insanely great 4th quarter stats, but poor 1st and 2nd quarter production.

I tend to think it's because Wilson just plays really conservative in the first half and goes balls-out in the second because the game tends to be on the line. Which has melded well with Pete Carroll's philosophy. That's where Schotty is going to have to adapt to his surroundings, not the other way around.

I do think part of it is directives from Pete to play conservative in the first half, trust your defense and then win the game in the 4th quarter.

But IMO that's not going to fly this year. If we're going to have a successful season the offense needs to be far more consistent and productive in the first half...................... and help keep our young inexperienced defense off the field as much as possible until we can figure out who can play.

That means we can't go into halftime with no points or down by 7-10 pts. So the combo of Pete, Russell and Shottenheimer better come strong to get Russell in rhythm and tempo much quicker than normal.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

It's incredibly annoying how conservative they are in the first half of games. There's zero excuse for it.

 

[brimsalabim]

The biggest difference between Russell and the other QBs you mention is that Breese, Rivers, Brady, Big Ben, and Rogers will tell their OC to go jump in the lake if they don’t like a play. They all take total control of their offenses and the OC is only there to work for them. Russell is micromanaged by an OC who is micromanaged by a head coach who seees the game from a DC’s perspective.

 

[adeltaY]

Rivers is better than Wilson? :34853_doh:

No and I don't know why people are saying that. Rivers is a better pure passer but offers no upside outside the pocket. When has he ever carried a team deep into the playoffs?

In a huge Rivers fan and I think he's overlooked by fat too many fans but he is not better than Wilson. Look at the level of offensive talent on that team and compare it to ours. Rivers is right after Wilson at #5 or 6and both are better than Ben at this point.

You want to talk about consistency? Look at Roethlisberger. Even WITH Hailey, AB, Lev Bell, Great OL, he was very inconsistent just this season! Rivers and Ben are not better than Wilson. I wouldn't even say ICE is at this point. He's #4 after Brees, Brady, and Rodgers.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The biggest difference between Russell and the other QBs you mention is that Breese, Rivers, Brady, Big Ben, and Rogers will tell their OC to go jump in the lake if they don’t like a play. They all take total control of their offenses and the OC is only there to work for them. Russell is micromanaged by an OC who is micromanaged by a head coach who seees the game from a DC’s perspective.

To be fair, we aren't privy to what's discussed in the film room about playcalling between Russell, Pete and the coordinators.

Russell just so happens to be very professional on the field and doesn't scream at his teammates and coordinators like some QB's.

So I wouldn't take what we see as Russell not getting pissed off or animated towards his coaches about playcalling. My guess is at this point in his career he's VERY involved in what he likes to run.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Well, it just adds to the list of things he DOESN'T do the way people want him to. He doesn't scream and get angry all the time. :roll:
That dude is plenty intense, and we've seen it often. He was dropping F bombs after his TD against Houston. He was screaming on the sidelines during the NFC Title game. The league has had plenty of QB's who are not out there screaming, and who were very successful.

 

[chris98251]

lol at that Rams fan who would take Wentz over Wilson. Guy plays in a system that makes Nick Foles look All Pro. Wilson looks bad against the Rams? Derr that’s what happens when you put the worst OL up against the best DL genius.

Better hope you guys win the Super Bowl before Donald gets paid QB money and Average Goff sets the QB market.

Seems that if you have a system that your back up can play in and win a Super Bowl you can't knock it. Foles may not be an All Pro but he wasn't Spurgeon Wynn either.

Nick Foles was coaching high school football or something around this time last year all but given up on playing football. He might not be Spurgeon Wynn, but he’s not an upper echelon QB either. Nice hyperbole there.

Who said I was knocking their system? I think their system is great. It makes below average QBs like Foles look All Pro.

Guy plays in a system that makes Nick Foles look All Pro.

Knocking or Mocking you said it right there, grow a pair and own up to your own statement, Hyperbowl my ass I made it big and Yellow so you can see what YOU wrote.

 

[Fade]

Wilson is a prisoner to Pete Carroll's "philosophy". They are not trying to air it out in the 1st quarter of games.

Wilson's numbers will never be stellar in the 1st Half over the course of a season while Pete is the coach. Pete is trying to establish the run come hell or highwater. He isn't Holmgren.

The very few exceptions to that is when they are playing a really, really good offensive team, in those rare situations (see vs PHI last year), Pete will take the reins off. Pete doesn't like playing that way though if he feels like he doesn't have to.

Trust me, if you put Wilson with a top flight offensive mind, their wouldn't even be a conversation right now if he is Tier 1 or not. There shouldn't be anyway.

He has put up Tier 1 numbers (and broke some records along the way) with F-tier playcalling, & F-tier offensive line play, dragging dead weight coaches along for the ride kicking and screaming (CaBevell), while having to be his own running game, but that apparently isn't enough for some people.

That consistency the critics want to complain about. (2nd highest rated passer of all-time, but isn't consistent LOL the definition of an oxymoron.) will come when he gets a consistent O-Line, running-game, and a better playcaller. We will just have to wait and see if these things have been improved this year.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Wilson is a prisoner to Pete Carroll's "philosophy". They are not trying to air it out in the 1st quarter of games.

Wilson's numbers will never be stellar in the 1st Half over the course of a season while Pete is the coach. Pete is trying to establish the run come hell or highwater. He isn't Holmgren.

The very few exceptions to that is when they are playing a really, really good offensive team, in those rare situations (see vs PHI last year), Pete will take the reins off. Pete doesn't like playing that way though if he feels like he doesn't have to.

Trust me, if you put Wilson with a top flight offensive mind, their wouldn't even be a conversation right now if he is Tier 1 or not. There shouldn't be anyway.

He has put up Tier 1 numbers (and broke some records along the way) with F-tier playcalling, & F-tier offensive line play, dragging dead weight coaches along for the ride kicking and screaming (CaBevell), while having to be his own running game, but that apparently isn't enough for some people.

That consistency the critics want to complain about. (2nd highest rated passer of all-time, but isn't consistent LOL the definition of an oxymoron.) will come when he gets a consistent O-Line, running-game, and a better playcaller. We will just have to wait and see if these things have been improved this year.

Consistency is very important. Bulk numbers say Wilson is very consistent, but when you start delving further down the rabbit hole problems in his game start arising. For example, in 2017 he had a sub 60 percent completion percentage in two of four quarters. He threw almost as many interceptions as touchdowns in the first three quarters, and his yards/average was pretty low. That cannot just be ignored when we talk about a person's merits as a passer. Moreover he was also very bad when operating under center. Almost as many interceptions as touchdowns and once again a sub 60 percent completion percentage.

This has always been my problem with Wilson, his game is limited. He does the hard things exceptionally well, but he also struggles very badly in some areas. It is precisely for these reasons why even GM's, and head coaches have a hard time putting him in tier one. He is dynamite in the fourth quarter, but Wilson himself, AND our coaches put the team in that position in the first place by not performing in the first three quarters. We pulled out a lot of victories, but it also cost us quite a few games as well. It is frustrating to watch as a fan. We see glimpses of greatness, and then we have many WTF moments to go along with that.

When I re-watch games I get even more frustrated. He creates a ton of opportunities, yet he misses just as many. If he could find a way to merge traditional QB play with his ad-lib style he would be without a doubt the best QB in the NFL. He was able to do it for about half a season in 2015, but since then he has reverted to old habits once again. He is a QB that is almost there, but has not been able to put together everything yet.

 

[Popeyejones]

^^^ Good post.

It's a weird statement to make, but at this point into his career I'd call him the best QB I've ever seen who in an ideal world I wouldn't want to be the focal point of my offense.

This is basically what Scot McCloughan said about him last year: he's an exceptional and exceptionally talented quarterback, but not the type of guy that you want throwing the ball 35 times a game.

 

[Sun Tzu]

lol at that Rams fan who would take Wentz over Wilson. Guy plays in a system that makes Nick Foles look All Pro. Wilson looks bad against the Rams? Derr that’s what happens when you put the worst OL up against the best DL genius.

Better hope you guys win the Super Bowl before Donald gets paid QB money and Average Goff sets the QB market.

Seems that if you have a system that your back up can play in and win a Super Bowl you can't knock it. Foles may not be an All Pro but he wasn't Spurgeon Wynn either.

Nick Foles was coaching high school football or something around this time last year all but given up on playing football. He might not be Spurgeon Wynn, but he’s not an upper echelon QB either. Nice hyperbole there.

Who said I was knocking their system? I think their system is great. It makes below average QBs like Foles look All Pro.

Guy plays in a system that makes Nick Foles look All Pro.

Knocking or Mocking you said it right there, grow a pair and own up to your own statement, Hyperbowl my ass I made it big and Yellow so you can see what YOU wrote.

You are misunderstanding what was said. He is not knocking the system; quite the opposite, he is noting that the system is so good it can make Nick Foles look great. He is knocking Wentz and Foles not the system.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

He still starts games cold and inaccurate, and needs to get into the 2nd half before he's in rhythm and tempo.......thus his insanely great 4th quarter stats, but poor 1st and 2nd quarter production.

I tend to think it's because Wilson just plays really conservative in the first half and goes balls-out in the second because the game tends to be on the line. Which has melded well with Pete Carroll's philosophy. That's where Schotty is going to have to adapt to his surroundings, not the other way around.

I do think part of it is directives from Pete to play conservative in the first half, trust your defense and then win the game in the 4th quarter.

But IMO that's not going to fly this year.

Well, it's Pete you'll have to take that up with. And I'm not sure you're going to get him to change his ways even now.

 

[brimsalabim]

Aaron Schatz of "Football Outsiders" was on ESPN Golic morning show today and said what worry's him most about the Seahawks this year is that under new Shotty our offence could conceivably get worse. He explained that Pete says publicly and maintains that "He want's to run the ball even when the other team knows we are running". He want's to run the ball even if the O-line can't block it. Now I get that every coach would like to be able to impose their will on the opposition and I am a big fan of staying on schedule ball control when it can be done. Just don't continually dig holes that you can't get out of. When the other team expects run some times that's exactly when you need to pass.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

He still starts games cold and inaccurate, and needs to get into the 2nd half before he's in rhythm and tempo.......thus his insanely great 4th quarter stats, but poor 1st and 2nd quarter production.

I tend to think it's because Wilson just plays really conservative in the first half and goes balls-out in the second because the game tends to be on the line. Which has melded well with Pete Carroll's philosophy. That's where Schotty is going to have to adapt to his surroundings, not the other way around.

I do think part of it is directives from Pete to play conservative in the first half, trust your defense and then win the game in the 4th quarter.

But IMO that's not going to fly this year.

Well, it's Pete you'll have to take that up with. And I'm not sure you're going to get him to change his ways even now.

Then get ready for another frustrating year of our offense stinking up first halves and being down by 7-10 pts going into 3rd and 4th quarters.

Cause this defense is NOWHERE near the level of the past couple of years capable of holding teams down until our offense can get rolling in 2nd halves.