Rumor: Seahawks talking to Giants about Kam trade

[Fade]

Kam was the first of the core players to get paid.

Yes, because he was one of the first core players to be drafted (in 2010) on a 5th round rookie contract that was coming in to its last year. The only other core players drafted in 2010 were Thomas and Okung - one on a 5 year contract and the other on a 6 year contract - both of them paying very handsomely.

Don't act like the Seahawks did Chancellor a massive favour by making him the first to be paid. As is always the case, Kam was first up and so he got a decent contract - but that contract has since been made to look a lot more ordinary by the other contracts being signed. He's now the 7th highest paid player on the defense, and only slightly better paid the KJ. The team even opted to pay Cary Williams $6m a year when he's yet to prove he's anything more than a league average contract.

Kam signed a contract when he was one of the top strong safeties in the game. But we're here 2 years later and he's no longer one of the top guys, he is the guy that is way ahead by a considerable distance. Now you can definitely look at it two ways - Kam is never going to voluntarily say "hey, I've not been living up to my contract, you should give me a cut", but the team might very well come along and say "Kam, you haven't been living up to your contract, you need to reduce your salary or we'll cut you" - which is exactly what they did to a key offensive player and fan favourite in Zach Miller.

Now Chancellor is in the exact opposite scenario where he is definitely outplaying his contract. Yes, it's a nice average earner at $7m a year, but look at the top SS contracts, guys like Donte Whitner, Reshad Jones, Aaron Williams and Morgan Burnett are all getting paid $6m plus a year. Ask yourself, if you could trade straight up for one of these guys and clear Kam's salary off the books and pay one of these guys instead would you do it? I say absolutely no chance, he is head and shoulders above these guys both figuratively and literally, and other than cap structure concerns, there's no reason not to pay him that way.

And on a separate point - one thing I read on this site over and over again is that "contracts are all about the guaranteed money, anything else is just fluff". Doesn't that mean the rest of Kam's contract is just fluff?

I'm not saying Seattle should go out and pay Chancellor $10m a year, but I bear absolutely no ill will towards him for looking at the situation and thinking "I deserve more here".

Based on that logic Aaron Rodgers should start holding out immediately. With RW, Cam, and Big Ben approachiing his $22APY, Aaron Rodgers is worth way more, at least $25APY. If he wanted to holdout he could, but he isn't dumb, greedy, & selfish.

 

[themunn]

I think you present a lucid argument.
But then again, Kam signed it. and if his agent at the time didn't tell him go for 4, not 5, or let's get better injury guarantees in that thing, that is on Kam, not the Hawks.
3 years left. And I know you make a good point with the guaranteed money thing, but Kam is getting paid well this year, not cut, so even though not a G year, it may as well be. If he shows up.

I am not taking his stand personal. But he is negotiating in bad faith. From a position of weakness on a deal he signed. And potentially allowing anohter guy to make him more expendable, which will only further weaken his position.

Imagine Bennett had done the same thing as Kam. What would we be saying about Frank Clark now? We would be calling Frank by the name of Bennett who?

Oh definitely - it's a gamble for sure. There are only two ways that a holdout like this works out, and it will only ever work if A: you are worth what you are demanding, and B: the team genuinely believes you will stick to your principle and hold out (or retire).

In the case of Bennett, the team might have always believed that he would hold out but turn up eventually because the thought of losing gamechecks trumps the want for extra money. Perhaps they also believe this is the case with Kam. However, if he genuinely will sit out, it comes down to whether or not the team believes they can cope without him... or worse, they found out they can't.

With Marshawn it was a case that the team simply didn't think they could maintain the same level without him, and fully believed he would retire if he didn't get paid, so they paid him.

Right now the team believes Bailey can step up and fill the gap, perhaps not to his level, but sufficiently enough that they can still win. However, what if the team is wrong? Does anybody believe that if we were to start 0-2 they wouldn't consider paying him? If they start 0-3 can you justify not paying him? Even if we start 2-0, if we give up 30+ points in both games the team will start looking at ways to pay him, and we get a lose lose situation for both team and player - the team have to concede to the player's demands, and the player loses face because he put the team in such a precarious situation.

Kam is one of my favourite players and I'd be happy to see him get paid... but if he doesn't turn up then I have to hope Bailey can fill his position and accept he wasn't as good as he thought, because as we know, the team comes first. I'd rather see us win and not need Chancellor than lose and see him come back.

 

[themunn]

Based on that logic Aaron Rodgers should start holding out immediately. With RW, Cam, and Big Ben approachiing his $22APY, Aaron Rodgers is worth way more, at least $25APY. If he wanted to holdout he could, but he isn't dumb, greedy, & selfish.

If Rodgers was the 10th highest paid player on his own team he probably would.

 

[theENGLISHseahawk]

Costing himself money.

Losing respect with the fans and might tarnish that bond forever.

Letting his team mates down.

You tried to get more money and didn't pull it off. Time to report.

 

[hieroglyphics]

Kam's biggest risk is if Dion Bailey figures out the position 2-3 games in, and suddenly Seattle doesn't need Kam anymore.

Suddenly, perhaps we have some room to resign Irvin, and Kam becomes the odd man over the longer run.

 

[Popeyejones]

Just to play devil's advocate:

Costing himself money.

Not really. Standard practice is to rescind all the fines as soon as someone reports.

Losing respect with the fans and might tarnish that bond forever.

These guys move around (and are moved around) all the time. Practically none of them end up playing for the team they grew up rooting for. Like it or not almost all of them have clear eyes and recognize this as a business. Put another way, I think the "bond with the fans" is MUCH MORE of a one way street than most fans want to admit.

Letting his team mates down.

Not really. Teammates (and players more generally) overwhelmingly tend to side with each other for these types of things. Just because it's only a few Hawks players who come out and say it on Twitter doesn't mean that practically everyone doesn't want every one of their teammates to get every cent they can.

You tried to get more money and didn't pull it off. Time to report.

This, however, I do agree with. :lol:

The only reason to hold out into the regular season is in hopes of the team starting out slowly and the defense playing poorly, giving Kam more leverage. With a team as stacked as the Hawks though that's really unlikely. He still has a day or two to be back for week 1.

 

[652cHAWK]

I figured out a way for Kam to come back while saving face.

Simple really, he fires his agent and blames the agent for bad info.
Just come back to camp and be aghast that his agent could give him such bad bad advice.

Kam might even slip the agent a parting fee, or rehire him back later, but at least then Kam can lay blame to someone else and plead ignorance(though ignorance is no excuse, he can still).

Might be a solution, because right now they are all dug in and pride is just not going to let Kam change and JS can't change.

Thought of this as well.

 

[Hawkfan77]

Ed Werder is reporting the Hawks don't expect to have Kam this year

Once he misses the Rams game, I won't root for him ever again

 

[c_hawkbob]

Ed Werder is reporting the Hawks don't expect to have Kam this year

Once he misses the Rams game, I won't root for him ever again

Not quite, All he's saying is that one player doesn't think Kam will be back at all and that we're preparing (as any team would) as though he were not available.

Ed Werder ‏@Edwerderespn 1h1 hour ago
#Seahawks planning as if holdout S Kam Chancellor won't play, one telling me, "I don't think we're going to have him at all this season."

 

[ImTheScientist]

Ed Werder is reporting the Hawks don't expect to have Kam this year

Once he misses the Rams game, I won't root for him ever again

Same here.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

I'm surprised we are still talking about Kam ....it's clear that he's not 100% healthy.....just consider him Jason Pierre Paul 2.0....

Now it's not a fireworks accident with Kam, but JPP didn't report to the Giants until this weekend, after holding the Giants off for 2 months....he's now placed the team in a place where they need to make a quick and somewhat uninformed decision on whether to play him or not....they haven't seen JPP's hand to know what range of motion or strength he has and they desperately need to play him vs. Dallas, even at 65%, he's better than what they have.

Fast forward to Kam.....he HAS to pass a physical examination of his entire body (knee specifically), when he reports.....he doesn't have to pass or have any physical examinations sitting at home in VA.

The difference, if any with Marshawn was he eventually reported once the team started moving on his added year to his contract and raise, which he actually deserved. Lynch reported, passed him physical and didn't sit in Oakland, waiting for someone to guess on his healthy status.....ate some skittles and showed up ready to work.

Kam is different, he needed to heal up and gets as close to 100% as possible, while giving the team little chance to evaluate him vs playing him. If he reported today, he'd potentially play at worse vs Green Bay, despite not getting another dollar....there's an outside chance he'd play Sunday in St. Louis.

IF you traded Kam for a pick or player or combo of whatever his value is, he has to then immediately report and pass that team's physical....if he flunks the physical, the deal is then cancelled and then Kam's value goes from whatever little leverage he has to ZERO. He would be then recorded as a damaged player.

If he reports, the Seahawks are not going to publically disgrace him by placing him on the PUP list, they will play him and let the player earn his money. The question is what type of performance will he provide to determine whether he can hold up beyond this year. If he's not healthy and is the Kam with turf toe of a couple of years ago, he's not worth the 4.55M he's earning this year. Kam knows that and Seattle's Front office and Pete knows that as well.

The discussion is this and nothing else. Kam is clearly not 100%....if he was, performed and passed his physical, the front office can then evaluate and determine that he's not getting another guaranteed dollar, because he may (I stress MAY), be physically breaking down or not the same player we are used to. If Seattle evaluates his knee in late July 2015 and determines he may be best suited for sitting out, then he would be placing himself under the microscope of not this year, but what additional money can Kam capture beyond this year.

Kam is fighting for his earnings beyond this year. I think he believes that as much time off, extends his career. He played extremely hard, while anyone else would and perhaps should have shut it down, after tearing his ligament in the Friday before the Super Bowl. He may believe he earned additional money, playing at clearly less than 70%.

If Kam can get healthy this year and sacrifices 4 to 6 game checks and buys himself time through September, he's then healthier for the stretch run, where he is really needed. Playing 19 games at the pace he plays, is difficult and takes a toll physically. If he can reduce that to 9 to 10 games plus playoffs, perhaps he extends his playing career by another couple of years, whether here or elsewhere.

But to state he is selfish, just isn't true....he's playing it smart....it's his career and money at stake and realistically, he is of no use to Seattle if he's not healthy in December and January, not September or October. Let him sit and avoid being placed on the PUP list by reporting in July.....

 

[Hawkfan77]

I'm surprised we are still talking about Kam ....it's clear that he's not 100% healthy.....just consider him Jason Pierre Paul 2.0....

Now it's not a fireworks accident with Kam, but JPP didn't report to the Giants until this weekend, after holding the Giants off for 2 months....he's now placed the team in a place where they need to make a quick and somewhat uninformed decision on whether to play him or not....they haven't seen JPP's hand to know what range of motion or strength he has and they desperately need to play him vs. Dallas, even at 65%, he's better than what they have.

Fast forward to Kam.....he HAS to pass a physical examination of his entire body (knee specifically), when he reports.....he doesn't have to pass or have any physical examinations sitting at home in VA.

The difference, if any with Marshawn was he eventually reported once the team started moving on his added year to his contract and raise, which he actually deserved. Lynch reported, passed him physical and didn't sit in Oakland, waiting for someone to guess on his healthy status.....ate some skittles and showed up ready to work.

Kam is different, he needed to heal up and gets as close to 100% as possible, while giving the team little chance to evaluate him vs playing him. If he reported today, he'd potentially play at worse vs Green Bay, despite not getting another dollar....there's an outside chance he'd play Sunday in St. Louis.

IF you traded Kam for a pick or player or combo of whatever his value is, he has to then immediately report and pass that team's physical....if he flunks the physical, the deal is then cancelled and then Kam's value goes from whatever little leverage he has to ZERO. He would be then recorded as a damaged player.

If he reports, the Seahawks are not going to publically disgrace him by placing him on the PUP list, they will play him and let the player earn his money. The question is what type of performance will he provide to determine whether he can hold up beyond this year. If he's not healthy and is the Kam with turf toe of a couple of years ago, he's not worth the 4.55M he's earning this year. Kam knows that and Seattle's Front office and Pete knows that as well.

The discussion is this and nothing else. Kam is clearly not 100%....if he was, performed and passed his physical, the front office can then evaluate and determine that he's not getting another guaranteed dollar, because he may (I stress MAY), be physically breaking down or not the same player we are used to. If Seattle evaluates his knee in late July 2015 and determines he may be best suited for sitting out, then he would be placing himself under the microscope of not this year, but what additional money can Kam capture beyond this year.

Kam is fighting for his earnings beyond this year. I think he believes that as much time off, extends his career. He played extremely hard, while anyone else would and perhaps should have shut it down, after tearing his ligament in the Friday before the Super Bowl. He may believe he earned additional money, playing at clearly less than 70%.

If Kam can get healthy this year and sacrifices 4 to 6 game checks and buys himself time through September, he's then healthier for the stretch run, where he is really needed. Playing 19 games at the pace he plays, is difficult and takes a toll physically. If he can reduce that to 9 to 10 games plus playoffs, perhaps he extends his playing career by another couple of years, whether here or elsewhere.

But to state he is selfish, just isn't true....he's playing it smart....it's his career and money at stake and realistically, he is of no use to Seattle if he's not healthy in December and January, not September or October. Let him sit and avoid being placed on the PUP list by reporting in July.....

You're speculating. You have no idea if he's hurt

 

[dino26]

How much money does one need, I am glad we are standing firm!

 

[ChiefHawk]

Wanted to buy a Kam Jersey this offseason - would have been wearing that to the Baltimore game and any others i can get too.

But not now.

Kam is one of the best compensated at his position in the game (yes, I do count the early money signing bonus he received across the years)

I can even understand a statement of some kind that he is looking for a new deal (which could and should have been accomplished by staying away from camp for a week - sends a significant notice, then gives leeway for both sides to come to a conclusion some time during the season once things settle).

His existing deal was intentionally front-loaded and guaranteed - so even when you consider he is 'near' the very top of his position in compensation his deal may be the best as there are more guarantees.

I had an issue deciding which of the LoB jersey's to get - and when I saw Kam jump the line twice in a row I had decided.

Not now.

A - Kam was possibly the best in the league at his position last year.
B - Kam may have the best contract in the league at his position right now (yes, you have to consider signing bonus and guarantees)
C - There are others on the team who have higher contracts on paper, but none of them play his position.
D - Until recently, I'd say there is no one other than Kam I would want at that position, but now I question commitment.
E - Kam has abandoned his position as a locker room and on field leader by this holdout, and that may no longer be possible to repair.
F - Kam has seriously pissed off this fan, and that may no longer be possible to repair.

 

[Cyrus12]

time to see what Dion Bailey can do...hope he can at least fill the hole without looking really weak like simon did last year. Kam holding out imo could be the difference in getting to another sb this year.

 

[Polaris]

Just to play devil's advocate:

Costing himself money.

Not really. Standard practice is to rescind all the fines as soon as someone reports.

Up until the start of the regular season? Sure. In this case what I've been hearing, if Kam doesn't report by the Rams game, those fines won't be forgiven. Also those fines are rescinded usually as part of a new deal. That is simply not going to happen here.

Losing respect with the fans and might tarnish that bond forever.

These guys move around (and are moved around) all the time. Practically none of them end up playing for the team they grew up rooting for. Like it or not almost all of them have clear eyes and recognize this as a business. Put another way, I think the "bond with the fans" is MUCH MORE of a one way street than most fans want to admit.

I agree that respect is much more important to the fan than to the player, but a person that doesn't care about what the 12s think wouldn't go to such lengths to twitter-block ANY 12 that looks at him crosswise including Brock Huard. That sounds like someone that is making this very personal, i.e. one that DOES care at least a little.

Letting his team mates down.

Not really. Teammates (and players more generally) overwhelmingly tend to side with each other for these types of things. Just because it's only a few Hawks players who come out and say it on Twitter doesn't mean that practically everyone doesn't want every one of their teammates to get every cent they can.

Sure up until the regular season, but look who just got voted Captain of the Defense? When this starts making the TEAM look bad, then that (effectively) takes money out of the pocket of everyone else and hurts everyone else. Players will stick together in public, no question. What's being said in private is likely starting to be quite different, and we've started to here hints of this rumbling.

You tried to get more money and didn't pull it off. Time to report.

This, however, I do agree with. :lol:

I'd say that's a widespread sentiment here. I share it as well.

The only reason to hold out into the regular season is in hopes of the team starting out slowly and the defense playing poorly, giving Kam more leverage. With a team as stacked as the Hawks though that's really unlikely. He still has a day or two to be back for week 1.

If he's going to make week one, then he really has to report today.

 

[Cyrus12]

ed werders article cites an unnamed player saying kam will not be back this season. sorry on my phone but it is on espn.com

 

[JimmyG]

ESPN guys thing about a 1st and a 3rd would be fair.

We wouldn't get anything close to a 1st and a 3rd. Kam is a strong safety, and despite his All Pro qualities, no one is going to put that many resources, which would include a monster contract, into that position. We would be lucky to get just the #1.

I don't see an easy way out of this mess. There's no way we would be able to get any value out of a trade and there's no way the team can cave in while Kam needs something to allow him to save face. It wouldn't be a good thing for him or us to have him come back with his tail between his legs.

Something has to be going on with Kam. Perhaps he's lost his desire for the game, or simply isn't ready physically and/or mentally to start the season. This is weird, has a Percy Harvin type smell to it (not that Kam's personality is anywhere near Harvin's), an irrational absence that can't be explained. He's not a prima donna like Harvin was, but a reasonable explanation is no easier to be found.

Well, when we traded Easley it was for Kelly Stouffer, who was the 6th overall pick the year before but held out the entire year. When his kidney issues surfaced we gave them our 1st and two 5ths instead. Easley was 29 at the time and had been injured in previous seasons. Kam is 27. So a 1st and a 3rd for Kam doesn't sound far-fetched to me at all. I personally wouldn't do this deal at all unless it was for two likely mid-to-high #1 picks. Even then I might not do it.

First of all, Easley was a free safety, Kam's a strong safety. Secondly, the safety position has changed dramatically since Easley's day. It's going on 30 years ago. Teams don't run as much now as they did then, so the importance of the safety isn't as high as it was when Easley was playing. And lastly, as good as Kam is, he's no Kenny Easley. The ONLY reason Easley isn't in the HOF is because his career was a couple of years too short. He was arguably the best defensive player in the league. Kam's not even the best defensive player on his team.

Agreed, you've made a lot of good points.

Fans have a tendency to dramatically overrate the value of their own players in a trade. Teams covet draft picks more than ever because of how cost-controlled drafted players are after the new CBA (if you squint hard enough, you'll see that it's starting to approximate something like baseball's service time system).

Like you said: for starters, Kam is a safety. Safeties simply aren't valued in the league as much as other positions. For example, Richard Sherman signed a 4-year, $56M contract ($40M guaranteed). Earl Thomas signed for "only" a 4-year, $40M contract (~$26M guaranteed). Thomas is arguably the better player (at worst, he's Sherman's equal) but got less money, because safeties aren't valued as much in this league.

Then you have to factor in that Kam is holding out for a new contract. That diminishes his value even more. Now, not only do you need to give up resources to acquire him, but you also need to give him a bunch of money. This is an important distinction from Easley, because there wasn't even a salary cap until 1994. In today's game, taking on a big contract means making sacrifices on other facets of your team.

I'm not sure what Chancellor would fetch in a trade, but I think a 1st and a 3rd is a pipe dream, given the circumstances. I really doubt we'll trade him, it doesn't make much sense. Hopefully he'll come around. (At the same time, I put zero stock in coaches/front office personnel denying trade rumors. There's zero incentive for them to be transparent and admit we're entertaining the idea of a trade. As far as I'm concerned anything they say is just PR fluff.)

 

[JimmyG]

ed werders article cites an unnamed player saying kam will not be back this season. sorry on my phone but it is on espn.com

I'll believe it when I see it (or, I guess, don't see him). Can't see him forgoing that much money.

 

[Evil_Shenanigans]

Hypothetical: If Kam sits out the year and the Seahawks should make it into the Playoffs and perhaps even back to the Superbowl, would he be entitled to the post season bonuses and/or even a potential SB ring while sitting on his ass in Virginia?