Ruminations on the Vikings Game

Ozzy

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sutz":2nhrmym9 said:
I'm still of the mind that #1/#2 seed is not that important of a split, and there's not much you can do about it if you don't play the competitive team head to head, so I won't root for the Niners when we're in a game by game competition for our division crown. Doesn't make sense.

We had our chance against the Saints and blew it. Our bad there. But rooting for the Niners to win when we need them to lose isn't in my DNA.

:49ersmall: :49ersmall: :49ersmall: :49ersmall: :49ersmall: :49ersmall:

I agree. I want the division and if we end up with more then great. I'm not rooting for the Niners to win though. Kind of a nice feeling that either way it somewhat helps us though.
 

SoulfishHawk

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Other than that fluke tipped interception for a TD and a blown coverage late, this game was clearly in hand. But, the Vikings are a damn good team and they weren't gonna' just fold down 17. Many teams would have, but overall I was impressed with that Vikings team, no give up.
 

Tical21

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You go for it on 4th down if you know you have plays that will work, and you are the inferior team. Teams that have gone for it the most on 4th down: Giants, Dolphins, Ravens, Bengals, Eagles, Falcons, Panthers, Colts, Jaguars, Texans, Browns, Jets, Cardinals, Bills, Raiders, Bears, Broncos, Vikings, Buccaneers.

Teams that have gone for the least: Seahawks, Packers, Saints, Patriots, Chiefs, Lions, Cowboys, 49ers
 

Tical21

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HawkStrong":pl6blwut said:
Tical21":pl6blwut said:
Did you just quote Ben Baldwin in your initial post, and in a serious fashion?

Surprised to see you posting here, after getting run out of town for your Wilson take.
What Wilson take?
 

hawksfansinceday1

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I like the idea of going for it a lot better if Carson isn't dinged on 3rd down. He's still the power back and it was a one yd conversion.
I also like it later in the game when the D-line is much less fresh.
 

Seahawk Sailor

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Tical21":1zysbsu3 said:
You go for it on 4th down if you know you have plays that will work, and you are the inferior team. Teams that have gone for it the most on 4th down: Giants, Dolphins, Ravens, Bengals, Eagles, Falcons, Panthers, Colts, Jaguars, Texans, Browns, Jets, Cardinals, Bills, Raiders, Bears, Broncos, Vikings, Buccaneers.

Teams that have gone for the least: Seahawks, Packers, Saints, Patriots, Chiefs, Lions, Cowboys, 49ers

I highlighted the teams that are 10-2 or 9-3.
 

Chapow

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austinslater25":8dummn2l said:
Your blind allegiance to anything Pete does is admirable.

Grow up.

By the way I think he is an all time great coach. He is way too conservative at times and it could potentially cost him. His two punts at the end of the San Fran game should have cost him but thankfully it didnt. Surrender index isn't the only metric pointing out that punting at midfield on 4th and short....I'll say it again you're overvaluing 30 yards instead of possibly scoring yourself, burning more clock etc. The reward outweighs the risk.

I don't, and never have, disagreed that Pete is too conservative at times. Again, I simply disagree with you, Fade, and Baldwin on this particular criticism of this particular 4th down decision. My disagreement on this particular criticism of this particular 4th down decision doesn't have anything to do with 36 yards (because that is second guessing based on hindsight), and being concerned with "burning more clock" with 57 minutes remaining in the game is silly.

I do have the numbers showing most teams go for it there. I can post them and do the research for you but you were being snarky so not sure it's even worth it.

So you can post the numbers to support your argument, but you won't because you didn't like my tone? Again, grow up.

Damned if you do, damned if you dont: No one is going to kill Pete if he turns the ball over at the 50. Hell he's even punted at the opponents 35. Again no one is going to criticize him for that. It's another dumb argument.

Looks like we're just going to have to agree to disagree. I think there's a 100% chance Pete gets heavily criticized for turning the ball over on our own 47 yard line instead of punting 3 minutes into the game.

As for prefacing posts about liking Pete....it should be obvious. Spend any time on here, on twitter or anywhere on social media and it's always met with the same response. "you know more than Pete!" "Were 10-2 and you're just hating on Pete!" I could go on and on and it's already shown up in this thread.

Yeah, I've seen that too. What does that have to do with me, this conversation, or anything I've posted in this thread?

Conventional wisdom has changed on this and you're late to the party, as is Pete. Which in a lot of ways is understandable. He's coached for 40 years doing it that way. We now KNOW it's probably a better idea to go for it in most instances. As we gather more information, technology, studying outcomes etc it's blatantly obvious. If this defense turns into the old LOB all time great type of defense then maybe, maybe it makes more sense to be a little more conservative at times. I would also argue we went away from cover 3 way too early in this game and their offense woke up and got them back in the game (along with our mistakes) but I can't say that because who dares question Pete!

It appears that you fundamentally misunderstand analytics. Analytics are intended to be used as a tool to help coaches make better decisions. Analytics are not some sort of holy writ that is to be followed to the T in every situation. Brian Burke of Advanced NFL Stats (and for all intents and purposes, the creator of the NYT 4th down bot) has said "The thing to keep in mind is that the bot’s analysis is not definitive in any way. “The bot and the model are starting points for analysis,” he said. “It’s not meant to be the final arbiter of coaching decisions".

Weren't you and tical arguing that Russell wasn't elite as well here recently?

Not that I recall. Perhaps you could refresh my memory?

How'd that go?

I don't know because I have no idea what you're talking about. Any chance you could fill me in on the point you're trying to make here?


Chapow":8dummn2l said:
austinslater25":8dummn2l said:
Chapow":8dummn2l said:
Let me know when punting on 4th down from our own side of the field with 57 minutes remaining in the game costs us a game. Thanks :2thumbs:

Also, in regards to the "surrender index",


https://github.com/andrew-shackelford/Surrender-Index

You guys are literally using a completely arbitrary metric to try to legitimize your opinion that Pete is wrong, continues to be wrong, and is apparently a coward. Which is far more ridiculous than punting on 4th down from our own side of the field 3 minutes into the 1st quarter.


Well when almost every other coach in the league goes for it there because the numbers say you should then its a bad decision.

Do you have anything to support your assertion that almost every other coach in the league goes for it on 4th down on their own side of the field 3 minutes into the first quarter? You don't have to answer that. We both know you don't. I doubt half the coaches in the league go for it there, but I also doubt there's any way to prove it one way or the other.

I love Pete as much as anyone but this weird allegiance to every single decision he makes like he's infallible is strange.

It's also strange that some here immediately resort to comments like this when someone disagrees with a criticism of Pete. I seriously doubt there are more than a tiny handful of people that think Pete is infallible, and I'm sure as hell not one of them.

There are many other metrics that should its smarter to just go for it instead of gaining the potential 30 yards in field position. Points matter and you have a better chance of scoring more if you go for it. The risk outweighs the reward. Harbaugh in Baltimore talked about this in a recent interview and moving forward it will continue to be a situation where more and more teams do go for it.

That's great, and I get that things are changing in regards to the conventional wisdom on whether or not to go for it on 4th down. However, coaches are constantly faced with "damned if you do, damned if you don't" decisions. Pete chooses to punt it there, he gets criticized. Pete chooses to go for it there, he gets criticized. Even if the team converts the 4th down some would criticize taking the unnecessary risk of possibly giving the Vikings great field position for seemingly no reason on their very first drive of the game.

You said let you know when it costs us a game but that's not really true. if Pete does do this and it does costs us a game you won't admit and neither will every other Pete apologist on this subject.

No. It really is true. You let me know when punting on 4th down on our own side of the field with 57 minutes remaining in the game costs us a game and I'll eat the biggest plate of crow you've ever seen. And again, I'm not a Pete apologist. I simply disagree with you, Fade, and Baldwin on this particular criticism of this particular 4th down decision.

We get it Pete is perfect and if you don't agree you're not a true fan. This take is tiring.

I'd argue that the melodramatic fallacy you just resorted too is far more tiring.

Any thoughts on the "surrender index" and your citing of it to support your argument? Thought I'd ask since you ignored that part of my post and instead tried to create the fallacy that I'm some sort of blind Pete loyalist that believes everything he does is perfect and that he never makes any mistakes.
 
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Fade

Fade

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Tical21":29r7fzsz said:
You go for it on 4th down if you know you have plays that will work, and you are the inferior team. Teams that have gone for it the most on 4th down: Giants, Dolphins, Ravens, Bengals, Eagles, Falcons, Panthers, Colts, Jaguars, Texans, Browns, Jets, Cardinals, Bills, Raiders, Bears, Broncos, Vikings, Buccaneers.

Teams that have gone for the least: Seahawks, Packers, Saints, Patriots, Chiefs, Lions, Cowboys, 49ers

Where are the Ravens?

How often do these teams punt 4th and a short 1 from midfield?

Teams are not expanding their analytic departments for the fun of it. Tangible results are happening on the field, and the emphasis is only becoming greater.
I just want to point this out one more time in case you missed it.
 

Tical21

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Fade":1hdq7nf2 said:
Tical21":1hdq7nf2 said:
You go for it on 4th down if you know you have plays that will work, and you are the inferior team. Teams that have gone for it the most on 4th down: Giants, Dolphins, Ravens, Bengals, Eagles, Falcons, Panthers, Colts, Jaguars, Texans, Browns, Jets, Cardinals, Bills, Raiders, Bears, Broncos, Vikings, Buccaneers.

Teams that have gone for the least: Seahawks, Packers, Saints, Patriots, Chiefs, Lions, Cowboys, 49ers

Where are the Ravens?

How often do these teams punt 4th and a short 1 from midfield?

Teams are not expanding their analytic departments for the fun of it. Tangible results are happening on the field, and the emphasis is only becoming greater.
I just want to point this out one more time in case you missed it.
Yes, the Ravens are the one good team out of 15. So, wouldn't all these newly bought analytics departments conclude it is not in-fact advantageous to go for it on fourth down?

Maybe not many punt from 4th and short from midfield, but perhaps many more of them should.
 

Hawkpower

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Analytics have a place in the game.

They are a tool to help in decision making.

They should not, imo, be a total replacement for understanding circumstance and nuance. The human element of the game, so to speak. The intangibles that may not be accounted for in the numbers.

I love the evolution of all the analytics, it is fascinating. But the game was also played that way for 40 years because it has tended to be successful as well. A good blend of old knowledge with new understanding is the best approach imo.

A blend that isnt black and white. A blend that doesnt believe "go for it" decisions are dictated by a computer or a formula. A blend that still allows for the intangibles to influence decisions, good or bad.

Most coaches will probably employ this type of approach. Fans with statistics in their hands and keyboards at their fingertips are a whole 'nother animal :)
 

Chapow

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Fade":31i6nwuw said:
Tical21":31i6nwuw said:
You go for it on 4th down if you know you have plays that will work, and you are the inferior team. Teams that have gone for it the most on 4th down: Giants, Dolphins, Ravens, Bengals, Eagles, Falcons, Panthers, Colts, Jaguars, Texans, Browns, Jets, Cardinals, Bills, Raiders, Bears, Broncos, Vikings, Buccaneers.

Teams that have gone for the least: Seahawks, Packers, Saints, Patriots, Chiefs, Lions, Cowboys, 49ers

Where are the Ravens?

Kind of just playing devils advocate here, but the Ravens are 1 of 5 teams with a 10-2 record. Where are the other 4?

How often do these teams punt 4th and a short 1 from midfield?

Teams are not expanding their analytic departments for the fun of it. Tangible results are happening on the field, and the emphasis is only becoming greater.
I just want to point this out one more time in case you missed it.
 

Chapow

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Hawkpower":1lc2mcu7 said:
Analytics have a place in the game.

They are a tool to help in decision making.

They should not, imo, be a total replacement for understanding circumstance and nuance. The human element of the game, so to speak. The intangibles that may not be accounted for in the numbers.

I love the evolution of all the analytics, it is fascinating. But the game was also played that way for 40 years because it has tended to be successful as well. A good blend of old knowledge with new understanding is the best approach imo.

A blend that isnt black and white. A blend that doesnt believe "go for it" decisions are dictated by a computer or a formula. A blend that still allows for the intangibles to influence decisions, good or bad.

Most coaches will probably employ this type of approach. Fans with statistics in their hands and keyboards at their fingertips are a whole 'nother animal :)

Very well said. Agree 100%.
 

sutz

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I'm a little curious how the analytics factor in what time of game is the decision being made. In the 1st qtr, going for it on 4th and 1 from mid-field has a whole different risk/reward component than late in the 4th quarter. Giving the opposition a possible short field for an easier score changes the dynamic.

And even if your D holds them to 3 and out, then they punt you to inside your own 10, what have you gained?

Analytics are great to add data points to decision making, but there are still important reasons some things have been done the way they have been for so long.
 

Tamerlane

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Fade":28d76tx0 said:
How often do these teams punt 4th and a short 1 from midfield?

I have found it interesting that Bill Belichick has made many similar "cowardly" decisions to kick field goals within 5 and 10 yards of the endzone and punt on 4th and short from the opposing team's ~40 this year, and in the past. He is not that averse to punting on 4th and short - depending. That's the key point though. While Baltimore appears to have "surrendered" decision making to a computer program and an economics undergrad student (keeping Ben Baldwin's dreams alive), they probably look much better than they might, for now at least, because of the so far unstoppable threat provided by Lamar Jackson and his brutish offensive line on fourth and short. Also note, the Ravens embrace of "analytics science" is incredibly tepid and minimal, since their run-pass ratios make a mockery of Baldwin's hobby horse that there is only one way to win "properly", by passing a lot (never will he stick his neck out with a number though).

The real Field Generals of football, especially the clear #1 (BB) and #2 (PC) most successful of the decade, might just know a thing or two more than the faux science of football analytics, which takes league wide averages and crudely squashes them like Christmas templates onto the complex cookie dough of situational football. Belichick himself has repeatedly said he weighs this kind of spreadsheet analytics "less than zero" when it comes to highly contextual, concrete situations on the field. What analytics dismisses as "gut" (versus "science") is actually based on evidence too: weighing the undisclosed health as well as fatigue of your players, the observed success of in game individual matchups to that point, the slipperiness of the turf, and every other micro-factor. And in Pete's case he must feel some faith in his decision making having found a way to defy all odds, for example, with that truly preposterous record of being 55-0 while up 4+ points at half. A record like this actually demands a logical, football explanation, even if analytics cannot provide one. Because there is obviously a method behind Pete's madness of carefully and cautiously managing risk (pushing and easing the gas pedal) that pains us fans but works in the end.

Having said all that, there are occasions obviously where Pete trends a bit conservative with respect to in game decisions, even to a fault, and that is part of his makeup. It probably hasn't helped that the Seahawks short yardage power run game has been off quite a bit from last year, as Football Outsiders stats show. But Pete is not consistently conservative and uses a very different calculus when behind. And when he does go for it on 4th, including two failed attempts against the Saints (both justified given the game state, even the "uncowardly" decision to go for it on Seattle's own 28 yard line), it seems many of the same analytics bozos come out of the woodwork to find fault. That's in part because the unofficial Seahawks Society of Analytics/Cynics (all 4 or 5 principals and their loyal following) seems far more concerned to discredit Pete Carroll and discount Seahawk success in order to confirm their priors than to give credit where it's due. None of this crowd dares to do the same to Bill Belichick so the double-standard just confirms a hidden agenda.

I suspect that if there were an omnicient Football Allfather capable of weighing Pete's "cowardice", he would reassure us that it has been far less costly than the critics believe (much cowardice went into the 55-0 record noted above). If anything I think it's the too casual use of early timeouts that is getting worrisome. But there is no Football Allfather and whatever people think of Pete they should be wary of the hubris of analytics and claims to quantify the spectacular chaos, contingency and game-of-inches of football down to 12 decimal places or whatever and name it, from the safety of their armchairs, a "surrender index".

Rant aside, thanks a ton for these ruminations and all your weekly ruminations, Fade. I greatly enjoy them.
 

Chapow

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9df

Well done, Tamerlane. Well done. By far the best post I've seen on this website in a really long time.
 

jammerhawk

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Tamerlane":3vot7f17 said:
Fade":3vot7f17 said:
How often do these teams punt 4th and a short 1 from midfield?

I have found it interesting that Bill Belichick has made many similar "cowardly" decisions to kick field goals within 5 and 10 yards of the endzone and punt on 4th and short from the opposing team's ~40 this year, and in the past. He is not that averse to punting on 4th and short - depending. That's the key point though. While Baltimore appears to have "surrendered" decision making to a computer program and an economics undergrad student (keeping Ben Baldwin's dreams alive), they probably look much better than they might, for now at least, because of the so far unstoppable threat provided by Lamar Jackson and his brutish offensive line on fourth and short. Also note, the Ravens embrace of "analytics science" is incredibly tepid and minimal, since their run-pass ratios make a mockery of Baldwin's hobby horse that there is only one way to win "properly", by passing a lot (never will he stick his neck out with a number though).

The real Field Generals of football, especially the clear #1 (BB) and #2 (PC) most successful of the decade, might just know a thing or two more than the faux science of football analytics, which takes league wide averages and crudely squashes them like Christmas templates onto the complex cookie dough of situational football. Belichick himself has repeatedly said he weighs this kind of spreadsheet analytics "less than zero" when it comes to highly contextual, concrete situations on the field. What analytics dismisses as "gut" (versus "science") is actually based on evidence too: weighing the undisclosed health as well as fatigue of your players, the observed success of in game individual matchups to that point, the slipperiness of the turf, and every other micro-factor. And in Pete's case he must feel some faith in his decision making having found a way to defy all odds, for example, with that truly preposterous record of being 55-0 while up 4+ points at half. A record like this actually demands a logical, football explanation, even if analytics cannot provide one. Because there is obviously a method behind Pete's madness of carefully and cautiously managing risk (pushing and easing the gas pedal) that pains us fans but works in the end.

Having said all that, there are occasions obviously where Pete trends a bit conservative with respect to in game decisions, even to a fault, and that is part of his makeup. It probably hasn't helped that the Seahawks short yardage power run game has been off quite a bit from last year, as Football Outsiders stats show. But Pete is not consistently conservative and uses a very different calculus when behind. And when he does go for it on 4th, including two failed attempts against the Saints (both justified given the game state, even the "uncowardly" decision to go for it on Seattle's own 28 yard line), it seems many of the same analytics bozos come out of the woodwork to find fault. That's in part because the unofficial Seahawks Society of Analytics/Cynics (all 4 or 5 principals and their loyal following) seems far more concerned to discredit Pete Carroll and discount Seahawk success in order to confirm their priors than to give credit where it's due.

I suspect that if there were an omnicient Football Allfather capable of weighing Pete's "cowardice", he would reassure us that it has been far less costly than the critics believe (much cowardice went into the 55-0 record noted above). If anything I think it's the too casual use of early timeouts that is getting worrisome. But there is no Football Allfather and whatever people think of Pete they should be wary of the hubris of analytics and claims to quantify the spectacular chaos, contingency and game-of-inches of football down to 12 decimal places or whatever and name it, from the safety of their armchairs, a "surrender index".

Rant aside, thanks a ton for these ruminations and all your weekly ruminations, Fade. I greatly enjoy them.

Absolutely right on Tamerlane, worth quoting b/c it's hard to disagree with any of your post.
 

Tical21

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It is not good coaching to do what the analytics say on every occasion. Good coaching is taking into account what the analytics say, the tenor of the game, how you feel about your situational football (the short yardage concepts you practice and have ready for that gameplan) versus that opponent and make the decisions to give you the best chance to win.
 

Ozzy

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Because the two greatest coaches in the game haven't done it historically isn't a good argument. They can be(and often are)wrong to do so. We just have much more information available now that we know it probably makes more sense, in most instances(not all) to go for it inside the 30's than to punt. We punted from the 37 at one point on 4th and 1 that netted us 17 yards. That doesn't make any sense at all. None. I could go more into this but people are camped on both sides and no one is going to change their opinion on this so it's probably best to agree to disagree.....
 

NYCoug

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Fade":3apvre6t said:
The analytics people are just now starting to take over the sport.

:pukeface:

We can only hope that those fun, brilliant analytics people can do for the game of pigskin what they've done for baseball and basketball. Just look at how fun and exciting those sports have become now that analytics are the be all end all. Can't wait, yay! :snack:
 
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