Question- who copied who?

[Navyhawkfan187]

Well dude earlier said there are 6 players starting from the 2009 Seahawks team right? Which means the Seahawks have an average of about 6 new starters per year, correct? 49ers have an average of 5 new starters per year under Harbaugh.

53-6/3 = 15.7 new players on the ACTIVE ROSTER per year...but really it was much higher in the first 2 years and fell off this year.

 

[BASF]

Let me ask a bit different question of the Niners fans: how is the Harbaugh philosophy for the team different than the Singletary philosophy of the team? The team still has the O-Line (a little retooling is standard in the NFL) and running game from the Singletary era. They are still running the 3-4 defense that Singletary used. Harbaugh is simply a better coach and has gotten better execution out of the team, but it's not like they revamped everything.

 

[grizbob]

I can't wait for this game to be over so the Whiner fans can get off our board and go back to theirs...Bah! I can't believe how they stalk this forum. I have NEVER intruded on their space. I just don't get it. Sorry.

ninner fans are like spouses (don't want to come off as a sexest by saying wives) you can't live with em and you can't shoot em :mrgreen:

 

[Uffda]

If harbaugh was as great a coach as the ninny fans are trolls around here, then guessing they would win two superbowl per year.


He is a good coach though obvious had a ton O' talent, to start with, had all those many low draft picks.. Has drafted well, not as good as the Hawks lately, though but decent

Was cute to to see them back in the playoff last year after what ... 10 seasons ?


Copying ? deluded I think.

 

[12thMode]

I think we are starting to steer away from the OP. The topic is how the Niners "fans" think we are copying them with they way we have built our team. If some of you Niner fans on this board want to chime in on that I would like to know why you agree or disagree with your "fellow" fans?

 

[5_Golden_Rings]

No one really copied the other. That would just be stupid, and there is clearly different philosophies.

That said, we clearly started first. Not sure how they can argue they started first, as Pete Carroll was hired one year before Harbaugh.

Very simply. Mike Singletary AND Mike Nolan *tried* but failed to build the kind of team the 49ers and Seahawks have. However, they didn't fail at either the defense or the OL-line, or the rest of the offense. Their only failure was at QB. But in establishing the mold, it was here before Harbaugh. Harbaugh just improved the QB position and varied the offensive scheme. The type of team we are, however, was set in motion AT LEAST by 2008, and really, the 49ers had been trying to do it since Mike Nolan in 2005. They just failed repeatedly at it, and it all came back to the quarterback position.



EDIT- But to note, Mike Nolan had blatantly admitted to wanting to copy the Steelers and Ravens, the tough, physical teams that were in the hunt every year. So, technically, you could argue that both the Seahawks and the 49ers are trying to copy the Steelers and Ravens. Or you could just say that they are both trying to copy the mold of a physical team that can suffocate an offense on defense and pound a defense to submission on offense with balance, but still throw in some flash. The truth is for the 49ers, however, that when it all began with Nolan, it was blatantly admitted that the teams they were trying to emulate were the Steelers/Ravens (and it is no coincidence that Nolan came from Baltimore, and more, so did Mike Singletary).

Let me ask a bit different question of the Niners fans: how is the Harbaugh philosophy for the team different than the Singletary philosophy of the team? The team still has the O-Line (a little retooling is standard in the NFL) and running game from the Singletary era. They are still running the 3-4 defense that Singletary used. Harbaugh is simply a better coach and has gotten better execution out of the team, but it's not like they revamped everything.

Right. But it goes back even further, all the way to Nolan. Nolan had the vision from the start, but didn't have the skill, particularly on offense. What Harbaugh has brought is his technical expertise at the quarterback position, and his skill in evaluating talented offensive staff. The teams that were copied was the Ravens and the Steelers, according to Nolan, who basically said as much around the time he began...

 

[sc85sis]

Pete is using everything he learned from a lifetime of playing and coaching. Yes, some of it came from his time working with Seifert and Walsh in San Francisco. He also learned from Bud Grant when he was with the Vikings. His association and friendship with Monte Kiffin is well known. Last I knew, he still phoned his high school FB coach before every game, just to chat for a few minutes (heard that one a few years back, and I have no idea whether the gentleman is still living).

Harbaugh also has a lifetime of experience that he's drawing from. Obviously he and Pete have some similarity in their approach. So did Nolan and Singletary. But that doesn't mean they're trying to copy each other. They just want to win.

 

[Scottemojo]

No one really copied the other. That would just be stupid, and there is clearly different philosophies.

That said, we clearly started first. Not sure how they can argue they started first, as Pete Carroll was hired one year before Harbaugh.

Very simply. Mike Singletary AND Mike Nolan *tried* but failed to build the kind of team the 49ers and Seahawks have. However, they didn't fail at either the defense or the OL-line, or the rest of the offense. Their only failure was at QB. But in establishing the mold, it was here before Harbaugh. Harbaugh just improved the QB position and varied the offensive scheme. The type of team we are, however, was set in motion AT LEAST by 2008, and really, the 49ers had been trying to do it since Mike Nolan in 2005. They just failed repeatedly at it, and it all came back to the quarterback position.



EDIT- But to note, Mike Nolan had blatantly admitted to wanting to copy the Steelers and Ravens, the tough, physical teams that were in the hunt every year. So, technically, you could argue that both the Seahawks and the 49ers are trying to copy the Steelers and Ravens. Or you could just say that they are both trying to copy the mold of a physical team that can suffocate an offense on defense and pound a defense to submission on offense with balance, but still throw in some flash. The truth is for the 49ers, however, that when it all began with Nolan, it was blatantly admitted that the teams they were trying to emulate were the Steelers/Ravens (and it is no coincidence that Nolan came from Baltimore, and more, so did Mike Singletary).

Let me ask a bit different question of the Niners fans: how is the Harbaugh philosophy for the team different than the Singletary philosophy of the team? The team still has the O-Line (a little retooling is standard in the NFL) and running game from the Singletary era. They are still running the 3-4 defense that Singletary used. Harbaugh is simply a better coach and has gotten better execution out of the team, but it's not like they revamped everything.

Right. But it goes back even further, all the way to Nolan. Nolan had the vision from the start, but didn't have the skill, particularly on offense. What Harbaugh has brought is his technical expertise at the quarterback position, and his skill in evaluating talented offensive staff. The teams that were copied was the Ravens and the Steelers, according to Nolan, who basically said as much around the time he began...

I call BS (friendly BS). The niners would have won the SB with that very QB(if Kaep over Smith is what you mean by improving the QB position) if Kyle Williams doesn't go full retard. We already saw what you can do against a Gronkless New England team, not a doubt in my mind Alex Smith has a ring if Kyle gets out of the way. I agree with you on Smith's limits, but Harbaugh could have Dilfered a ring last year.

What Harbaugh brought was offensive ingenuity. His offense is so QB friendly it isn't funny. You watch Alex Smith when he ends up somewhere else, then lots will see just how good of an environment Harbaugh builds for his QB. I love his Line backer freezing heavy sets that the Niners have been adept at passing from. In particular, teams not in the NFC west have been flummoxed by those looks. The Bears didn't know what to do to adjust to the passes coming from those heavy sets, and if they had adjusted, the Niners would have just run the ball. Some of the blocking schemes Harbaugh brought from Stanford are just astounding in this age of spread looks, and while we do some of that, it is nowhere on the level of the Niners.

Now, if I was going to ding Harbaugh on one thing, it is that I see him trending to not developing his young guys enough. It is a minor nit to pick, but he reminds me of Holmgren to the degree in which he rides his veterans. I don't think Harbaugh has much tolerance for the mistakes young guys make. Kaepernick is the exception, but I think Harbaugh was really frustrated with just how limited Smith really is.

For us Seahawk fans, hard nosed football is a novelty, something we have not seen since Cortez and the early 90's, and our offense was the worst in NFL history, so we wasted that defense. Even winning with Holmgren, the finesse label was frustrating, and certainly why we could not win road games.

 

[rideaducati]

Think about it. How many players on the current 49ers team were drafted by Harbaugh? Kaepernick, Aldon Smith... it's not a terribly long list. It's pretty flippin' obvious that he inherited a very good team that was very weak at QB. He put Smith in position to succeed, and that's pretty much all he had to do.

Drafted:
Aldon Smith
Colin Kaepernick
Chris Culliver
Kendall Hunter
Bruce Miller
Lamichael James

Free Agents:
Carlos Rogers
Donte Whitner
Mario Manningham
Randy Moss
Jonathan Goodwin

Backups promoted to starters:
Navorro Bowman
Alex Boone


There have been plenty of players added in the Harbaugh/Baalke era who are starters or backups that see extensive playing time. None of the players listed were starters pre-Harbaugh. Seattle drafted a lot of talent and the front office has done a very good job, but to pretend Harbaugh just walked into a plethora of pro bowl quality starters in place is naive. They've made extensive roster changes.

Just a quick question for you. How many players drafted THIS year are playing for the niners THIS year? James is the only rookie that has played a snap and he's only on the field because the guy in front of him got hurt. If the niner draft was soooooo good, I would think that at least ONE of them would have started a game by now. Hmmm.... Maybe the team was pretty much SET when Hairball got there or maybe the niner front office got lucky in the 2011 draft and they actually suck at drafting. One of those things has to be true.

 

[RolandDeschain]

Disp, you are really starting to sound like a troll around here...

He rearranged a handful of players he already had, mostly, to turn a decent defense into an elite one. Don't even come close to getting started on the subject of acquiring talent in regards to Harbaugh. It'll be a couple years before that can be evaluated well. He also passed up Richard Sherman, who he knew and converted to CB at Stanford, in the draft. Now, most of the NFL analysts put him on the same plane as Revis. Before his second year, and he only played like 2/3rds of last year. Who was Chris Clemons before we got him for peanuts from Philly? Doug Baldwin, also coached by Harbaugh at Stanford, went undrafted and he was our leading receiver last year, and one of the best rookie receivers in the NFL. You'd think Harbaugh would have grabbed at least one of the two he knew. Sherman, in particular; you NEVER pass up an elite player. How well Harbaugh can draft and fill team needs remains to be seen. Carroll blew up the Seahawks and started from scratch. As of right now, he has proven to be a far superior franchise-builder than Harbaugh; and if we are fortunate enough to go all the way this year, I may even call him one of the best ever.

 

[jammerhawk]

Look at our present roster and assess how many players on it were here in 2009. The answer I believe is 8 and of them two are close to the end of their careers or just recently added back due to roster need. SF has not faced as much roster turnover, not even close.

On O, only Unger, Obo, & Butler remain. On D the team only still has Bryant, Mebane, Hill, & Trufant. We have Ryan from ST as the only other guy still here from the '09 roster.

JS and PC came to a team that had been allowed to age not gracefully, lacked any depth, was in cap trouble, was small, slow, and considered to be soft. Our team had no running game and was depending upon passing from an aging QB forced to play a short passing game behind an OLine that was either done, or unable to protect him. The team really lacked an identity and had fallen from being a marginal playoff contender to being one of the worst teams in the league. Going from 6th worst with a season of significant roster churn the team managed a miracle season advancing to the 2nd rd. of the playoffs after beating NO in the beastquake game. Despite missing the playoffs last season the version of the team fielded was a deeper faster bigger and stronger more talented version than of the season prior. This season's version is improved still yet there are remaining areas needing improvement. Each there are fewer.

The changes continued and are More subtle now but there are few positional areas secure from repopulation. This is significantly different from SF. The only similarities is both teams play tough old style ball preferring to run to set up the pass along with hard nosed D, and solid ST play. It is ill-informed rubbish to say we copied them.

 

[loafoftatupu]

Think about it. How many players on the current 49ers team were drafted by Harbaugh? Kaepernick, Aldon Smith... it's not a terribly long list. It's pretty flippin' obvious that he inherited a very good team that was very weak at QB. He put Smith in position to succeed, and that's pretty much all he had to do.

Drafted:
Aldon Smith
Colin Kaepernick
Chris Culliver
Kendall Hunter
Bruce Miller
Lamichael James

Free Agents:
Carlos Rogers
Donte Whitner
Mario Manningham
Randy Moss
Jonathan Goodwin

Backups promoted to starters:
Navorro Bowman
Alex Boone


There have been plenty of players added in the Harbaugh/Baalke era who are starters or backups that see extensive playing time. None of the players listed were starters pre-Harbaugh. Seattle drafted a lot of talent and the front office has done a very good job, but to pretend Harbaugh just walked into a plethora of pro bowl quality starters in place is naive. They've made extensive roster changes.

I give you:
Vernon Davis
Michael Crabtree
Lupati
Staley
Willis
Goldson
Gore
Justin Smith
Alex Smith
Ray McDonald
Leonard Davis
Sopo
Ted Ginn
Delaney Walker
Anthony Davis
Bowman
Brooks
Andy Lee


Just a list of SOME of the players on the roster prior to Harbaugh taking over.

Now, go find how many Seahawks that are on the current roster prior to Carroll taking over. I didn't list EVERY Niner on their roster that was there before Harbadouche came on board.

Now you can go through the entire Seahawks active roster and you will come up with 7 total players. That's it..7. From the entire roster. Wait, it might be 8 if you include Obo who I think isn't on the active roster right now.

Every team makes roster changes and both Carroll and Harbaugh have done well there, but please.....