Pay Kam

[andyh64000]

Did you really read my response or did you just jump straight to a straw man reply?

Nothing HF77 said was false, and was exactly what you're insinuating.

You're basically saying the window is small and to hell with the next several years when every impact player pulls the same crap Kam has and then this team is in a MAJOR dilemma.

You just simply cannot open Pandora's box. No matter what Dion Bailey looked like. Just can't do it.

Fans are pissed tonight because we lost. If Dion Bailey doesn't fall down and we win 31-24, far less panic from the fan base.

Fortunately - the FO doesn't operate off of emotion.

First of all HF77's premise "sure we got so lucky, nothing but luck has brought us this far" was false in implying this is at all what I said.

And fine...don't open pandoras box...we will be the most principled fanbase watching super bowls at home for another 40 years.

It wasn't just him falling down on that play...it was defense the entire game. You can't lose an all-pro and think "next man up...everything will be fine".

 

[Uncle Si]

One man does not win or lose any NFL games...

 

[Hawkfan77]

Did you really read my response or did you just jump straight to a straw man reply?

Nothing HF77 said was false, and was exactly what you're insinuating.

You're basically saying the window is small and to hell with the next several years when every impact player pulls the same crap Kam has and then this team is in a MAJOR dilemma.

You just simply cannot open Pandora's box. No matter what Dion Bailey looked like. Just can't do it.

Fans are pissed tonight because we lost. If Dion Bailey doesn't fall down and we win 31-24, far less panic from the fan base.

Fortunately - the FO doesn't operate off of emotion.

First of all HF77's premise "sure we got so lucky, nothing but luck has brought us this far" was false in implying this is at all what I said.

And fine...don't open pandoras box...we will be the most principled fanbase watching super bowls at home for another 40 years.

It wasn't just him falling down on that play...it was defense the entire game. You can't lose an all-pro and think "next man up...everything will be fine".

So if the FO doesn't bend over backwards for Kam immediately, the Hawks won't return to the SB for the next 40 years? Ok...you must think Kam is other worldly and everyone else that they've locked up (ET, Sherm, Bobby, Wilson, Lynch, Graham, Bennett, Avril plus the young guys) are all overrated and Kam alone makes this team SB worthy...

Sorry, is that too straw man for you?

 

[andyh64000]

Did you really read my response or did you just jump straight to a straw man reply?

Nothing HF77 said was false, and was exactly what you're insinuating.

You're basically saying the window is small and to hell with the next several years when every impact player pulls the same crap Kam has and then this team is in a MAJOR dilemma.

You just simply cannot open Pandora's box. No matter what Dion Bailey looked like. Just can't do it.

Fans are pissed tonight because we lost. If Dion Bailey doesn't fall down and we win 31-24, far less panic from the fan base.

Fortunately - the FO doesn't operate off of emotion.

First of all HF77's premise "sure we got so lucky, nothing but luck has brought us this far" was false in implying this is at all what I said.

And fine...don't open pandoras box...we will be the most principled fanbase watching super bowls at home for another 40 years.

It wasn't just him falling down on that play...it was defense the entire game. You can't lose an all-pro and think "next man up...everything will be fine".

So if the FO doesn't bend over backwards for Kam immediately, the Hawks won't return to the SB for the next 40 years? Ok...you must think Kam is other worldly and everyone else that they've locked up (ET, Sherm, Bobby, Wilson, Lynch, Graham, Bennett, Avril plus the young guys) are all overrated and Kam alone makes this team SB worthy...

Sorry, is that too straw man for you?

Yes...that is an excellent example of a straw man,

 

[davidonmi]

great idea. just be ready for 4 holdouts next year

 

[WilsonMVP]

Andy nailed it. And that is part of the reason I am so p*ssed off about this season now.

I believe that if the Seahawks had just resigned everyone for the most part, and then went forward - we would have gone to the SB. But I think some of the moves we made, just shelled us.

The reason that SB losers tend not to repeat is because they tend to make radical additions or significant personnel moves to "fix the problem". But there was no problem, they were in the SB in many instances in a close game. The list of SB losers that brought in one or two star players only to have it implode on them is massive.

I actually like the J Graham story. I like his fire/personality. But I think even though we gave up an oft injured center for him, it was a center we needed. Maybe I will be wrong, this is a very green line.

Then we bring in Cary Williams and not only is he incompetent at his primary job (covering receivers) but he might be part of the main driver for Kam's frustration. Kam has the most physically demanding job of any player in the secondary, and might be the most responsible for the success of the secondary. His reward? The least appreciated and lowest paid, in guaranteed dollars (which is important because he can injure himself performing his job and that is his only security).

This is one game. However the Rams are not world beaters and they passed all over us like kids at the beach.

So what is the future? Can we just get Russel some weapons and expect him to march them to the playoffs like Aaron Rodgers? (and how many SBs have they won in GB with that approach anyway btw?)

Bevell will still be Bevell so I think the plan to turn us from a defense first team to a team that wins with the all everything QB, is flawed because we still have the problem that our OC is below average. And so is our line. You need to be a lot more than a great QB to overcome that, you need to be lucky.

It seems like they squandered a perfect opportunity to win by doing the very things that made the Seahawks a respected team among most of the NFL. They are trying to hand the keys of the car to Russ, when they had a perfectly working system in place that won't work with that approach (remember you cannot pay everyone?)

They were also 1 bad Kaep throw and 1 onside kick away from not even being in those 2 superbowls. Plays at the very end could of gone either way

 

[TwistedHusky]

Some of you act like breaking the process/precedent would somehow hamstring the Seahawks at the expense of all the other teams. Yeah sure.

Every other agent would demand the same treatment for their HOF types (maybe it trickles down, maybe not - the loss of leverage issue becomes salient here. But it would NOT keep the Seahawks from "reaching the SB for 40 years!!!!!!!(OMG!)"

What it likely WOULD result in is more rational contracts that are not all backloaded with amounts the athlete would never see. And it might indeed end up putting more incentive based structures in place for contracts (both a mix of team and individual performance incentives). Because the ridiculous amounts in contracts would no longer be able to be used for "ego contracts" for agents to show big $$$ that the athlete would never reach.

And yes, it would probably result in some situation like baseball has with arbitration, that isn't perfect but not the end of world scenario being posed.

Right now, for the most part, the large contracts that athletes sign never see those tail years. So how is that good for either side?

Kam signed a bad contract but the alternative to him, in not signing was even worse. Some of you feel that his best option was not to sign but that is just idiotic. The correct and most beneficial option was to take the contract, produce in excess of the contract and then renegotiate it after having delivered and coming back from a position of strength. Coming off a rookie deal that is ridiculously low comp vs the standard is NOT a position of strength.

This isn't the Walton's you make deals that benefit both sides and when the deal is not equitable you come back to the table. Nobody cares about your word, they care about how they benefit. You need to be clear that is what you need to care about too - especially when the currency you pay in is in long term health and earning years available.

Kam delivered, and then wanted more security. Nothing wrong with that.

What should matter is the % chance of reaching the SB in the near future with Kam vs without and right now it is clear that % is significantly higher WITH him than without.

 

[WilsonMVP]

Some of you act like breaking the process/precedent would somehow hamstring the Seahawks at the expense of all the other teams. Yeah sure.

Every other agent would demand the same treatment for their HOF types (maybe it trickles down, maybe not - the loss of leverage issue becomes salient here. But it would NOT keep the Seahawks from "reaching the SB for 40 years!!!!!!!(OMG!)"

What it likely WOULD result in is more rational contracts that are not all backloaded with amounts the athlete would never see. And it might indeed end up putting more incentive based structures in place for contracts (both a mix of team and individual performance incentives). Because the ridiculous amounts in contracts would no longer be able to be used for "ego contracts" for agents to show big $$$ that the athlete would never reach.

And yes, it would probably result in some situation like baseball has with arbitration, that isn't perfect but not the end of world scenario being posed.

Right now, for the most part, the large contracts that athletes sign never see those tail years. So how is that good for either side?

Kam signed a bad contract but the alternative to him, in not signing was even worse. Some of you feel that his best option was not to sign but that is just idiotic. The correct and most beneficial option was to take the contract, produce in excess of the contract and then renegotiate it after having delivered and coming back from a position of strength. Coming off a rookie deal that is ridiculously low comp vs the standard is NOT a position of strength.

This isn't the Walton's you make deals that benefit both sides and when the deal is not equitable you come back to the table. Nobody cares about your word, they care about how they benefit. You need to be clear that is what you need to care about too - especially when the currency you pay in is in long term health and earning years available.

Kam delivered, and then wanted more security. Nothing wrong with that.


What should matter is the % chance of reaching the SB in the near future with Kam vs without and right now it is clear that % is significantly higher WITH him than without.

I wouldnt say he signed a bad contract when his average salary is top for SS position and 8th? in the league for SAFETIES, with Earl being number 1. Even then he should of either reported and been there the whole offseason trying to move up some money OR just wait til next year. You dont try to renegotiate when you have THREE years left on your contract. I didnt hear him complain when he got paid before Sherman, Wagner and Wilson

Also nobody can tell me the poor defensive play was ALL because he wasnt there. New coaches on the defensive side, a different CB opposite Sherman. All levels of the D played poor today except maybe the Dline, maybe Bennet

 

[The Outfield]

One man does not win or lose any NFL games...

Mmmm... to a certain extent maybe. Put me at QB for the entire game and I'll try my best but I guarantee we will not win. :mrgreen:

 

[davidonmi]

Some of you act like breaking the process/precedent would somehow hamstring the Seahawks at the expense of all the other teams. Yeah sure.

Every other agent would demand the same treatment for their HOF types (maybe it trickles down, maybe not - the loss of leverage issue becomes salient here. But it would NOT keep the Seahawks from "reaching the SB for 40 years!!!!!!!(OMG!)"

What it likely WOULD result in is more rational contracts that are not all backloaded with amounts the athlete would never see. And it might indeed end up putting more incentive based structures in place for contracts (both a mix of team and individual performance incentives). Because the ridiculous amounts in contracts would no longer be able to be used for "ego contracts" for agents to show big $$$ that the athlete would never reach.

And yes, it would probably result in some situation like baseball has with arbitration, that isn't perfect but not the end of world scenario being posed.

Right now, for the most part, the large contracts that athletes sign never see those tail years. So how is that good for either side?

Kam signed a bad contract but the alternative to him, in not signing was even worse. Some of you feel that his best option was not to sign but that is just idiotic. The correct and most beneficial option was to take the contract, produce in excess of the contract and then renegotiate it after having delivered and coming back from a position of strength. Coming off a rookie deal that is ridiculously low comp vs the standard is NOT a position of strength.

This isn't the Walton's you make deals that benefit both sides and when the deal is not equitable you come back to the table. Nobody cares about your word, they care about how they benefit. You need to be clear that is what you need to care about too - especially when the currency you pay in is in long term health and earning years available.

Kam delivered, and then wanted more security. Nothing wrong with that.

What should matter is the % chance of reaching the SB in the near future with Kam vs without and right now it is clear that % is significantly higher WITH him than without.

if he wants more security, that can happen when he's here and participating. You should almost never negotiate with someone who is holding out unless that person plays QB or something

 

[ZagHawk]

Bleh

 

[Maelstrom787]

Kam has outplayed his contract, is one of the most important players on the team, and deserves to be paid more. He's certainly higher than the 8th best safety in the league. I hope the FO caves on this one, for their own good.

The defense needs him if they want to be anywhere near as dominant.

 

[TwistedHusky]

"You should almost never negotiate with someone who is holding out unless that person plays QB or something"

You negotiate with someone when they materially impact the outcome in a way that benefits you if you can get a beneficial agreement from them.

But you you noticed how you said it should be a QB because a QB so materially impacts the success of a team? Because the league has shifted the rules continuously to benefit the QB play at the expense of other positions - to the point where good QB play is required to win (again see Texans for this).

Does it then not stand to reason that a safety, a position that exists to limit the effectiveness of a QB, becomes significantly valuable? Since safeties take away entire portions of the field? What about if it turns out the QB of the secondary IS the safety?

But that was not clear until we had him hold out. Then what?

(Or is all of this not that loss of Kam at all and instead the fact we have a completely new DC that might or might not be good at HIS new job?)

 

[WilsonMVP]

Kam has outplayed his contract, is one of the most important players on the team, and deserves to be paid more. He's certainly higher than the 8th best safety in the league. I hope the FO caves on this one, for their own good.

The defense needs him if they want to be anywhere near as dominant.

So could we ask for Harvins money back...Can we ask for Okungs money back. What about Wilson..he hasnt outplayed that Contract he just signed yet. Can the FO take some of that back if he regresses.

If you think he deserves to be paid more well then he would deserve to play for another team because there is noway in hell the Seahawks are going to shell out money to have the 1 and 2 highest paid safeties in the game, and Sherman who is one of the highest paid AND Wagner who was the highest paid MLB until Luke

Those 4 players take up about 41 million a year avg salary

If you look at the top avg salaries for defense Safeties and 4-3 OLB are the two lowest paid postions on avg. If you break it down further to SS Kam is at the top allready.

So tell me again how he is overperforming his contract compared to the position he pays. I guess he wants FS money when he is a SS

 

[seahawk12thman]

Kam has outplayed his contract, is one of the most important players on the team, and deserves to be paid more. He's certainly higher than the 8th best safety in the league. I hope the FO caves on this one, for their own good.

The defense needs him if they want to be anywhere near as dominant.

So could we ask for Harvins money back...Can we ask for Okungs money back. What about Wilson..he hasnt outplayed that Contract he just signed yet. Can the FO take some of that back if he regresses.

If you think he deserves to be paid more well then he would deserve to play for another team because there is noway in hell the Seahawks are going to shell out money to have the 1 and 2 highest paid safeties in the game, and Sherman who is one of the highest paid AND Wagner who was the highest paid MLB until Luke

 

[Spin Doctor]

Kam has outplayed his contract, is one of the most important players on the team, and deserves to be paid more. He's certainly higher than the 8th best safety in the league. I hope the FO caves on this one, for their own good.

The defense needs him if they want to be anywhere near as dominant.

There a tons of players that outplay their contract. Tom Brady for example was the 12th highest paid QB last year. Players such as Joe Flacco were making more money than Brady. Did he hold out? No. That is not how the league works my friend. At the time that the deal was signed it was an astronomical amount. With the salary cap raising, so do the salaries of players. You can't fold on this one, he is only two years into his new contract, negotiating would set a very bad precedence.

We already know that Bennett is unhappy with his contract, what happens if we give Kam that money? What money would we use to pay him more money? The Seahawks are on razor thin margins right now when it comes to the salary cap. We physically cannot afford to give Chancellor much more.

I really hope this doesn't turn into a Darrelle Revis situation, where he held out every couple of years for more money. If you cave in now, that is the potential door that you are opening up.

 

[WilsonMVP]

Kam has outplayed his contract, is one of the most important players on the team, and deserves to be paid more. He's certainly higher than the 8th best safety in the league. I hope the FO caves on this one, for their own good.

The defense needs him if they want to be anywhere near as dominant.

There a tons of players that outplay their contract. Tom Brady for example was the 12th highest paid QB last year. Players such as Joe Flacco were making more money than Brady. Did he hold out? No. That is not how the league works my friend. At the time that the deal was signed it was an astronomical amount. With the salary cap raising, so do the salaries of players. You can't fold on this one, he is only two years into his new contract, negotiating would set a very bad precedence.

We already know that Bennett is unhappy with his contract, what happens if we give Kam that money? What money would we use to pay him more money? The Seahawks are on razor thin margins right now when it comes to the salary cap. We physically cannot afford to give Chancellor much more.

I really hope this doesn't turn into a Darrelle Revis situation, where he held out every couple of years for more money. If you cave in now, that is the potential door that you are opening up.

Good point about the Salary Cap. It has gone up about 20 million since Kam signed his deal I think. From 2009 to 2013 it actually went down and then back up again to 123million. In 2 years its jumped more than it had in the previous 8 years

You know whats crazy is the Salary Cap has doubled since Brady and Manning have been in the league

 

[SonicHawk]

Tom Brady is rich already. He knows that every dollar he takes takes away from putting talent on the field that can help him win the only thing he needs at this point in his career... Super Bowls. He's still a top 15 paid player, so it's not like he's not being paid handsomely.

I will never complain about a player asking for more money. I might disagree with him that he should receive it, or think that the team is in a better position not to pay him -- but only a real jerk would be mad at someone trying to get his.

This team needs Kam. Bailey is not the answer. You pay him, you get him on the field and when you win the Super Bowl this year, you trade him for a conditional 6th round pick.

 

[WilsonMVP]

Tom Brady is rich already. He knows that every dollar he takes takes away from putting talent on the field that can help him win the only thing he needs at this point in his career... Super Bowls. He's still a top 15 paid player, so it's not like he's not being paid handsomely.

I will never complain about a player asking for more money. I might disagree with him that he should receive it, or think that the team is in a better position not to pay him -- but only a real jerk would be mad at someone trying to get his.

This team needs Kam. Bailey is not the answer. You pay him, you get him on the field and when you win the Super Bowl this year, you trade him for a conditional 6th round pick.

If he did this next year I wouldnt have as much of a problem with it. But with 3 years left....you cant holdout ..you just cant..especially when you are allready one of the top paid at your position. Its rediculous. He allready did "GET HIS" and now that everyone "Got Theirs" plus more he wants more.

Thats not even getting into how tight up against the Cap the team is as well between all the new contracts everyone just got.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Kam has outplayed his contract, is one of the most important players on the team, and deserves to be paid more. He's certainly higher than the 8th best safety in the league. I hope the FO caves on this one, for their own good.

The defense needs him if they want to be anywhere near as dominant.

So could we ask for Harvins money back...Can we ask for Okungs money back. What about Wilson..he hasnt outplayed that Contract he just signed yet. Can the FO take some of that back if he regresses.

If you think he deserves to be paid more well then he would deserve to play for another team because there is noway in hell the Seahawks are going to shell out money to have the 1 and 2 highest paid safeties in the game, and Sherman who is one of the highest paid AND Wagner who was the highest paid MLB until Luke

Those 4 players take up about 41 million a year avg salary

If you look at the top avg salaries for defense Safeties and 4-3 OLB are the two lowest paid postions on avg. If you break it down further to SS Kam is at the top allready.

So tell me again how he is overperforming his contract compared to the position he pays. I guess he wants FS money when he is a SS

Why would they take the money back from the player? They'd just void the contract. They would not honor it. They'd cut the player. Your analogy is heavily flawed. Kam is choosing not to play for the amount he'd receive, just like the FO would not let a player play for more than they think he's worth (via release).