Newbie/ Did we forget all about the O line?

[Throwdown]

Huh? I'm with you on that. I was talking about Okung's early struggles with false starts, maybe it had to do with having a new guy back there n stuff.

 

[sutz]

Not too worried. I look at it this way.

In early 2011, Beast Mode was routinely getting hit 3 yards (or more) deep in the backfield. Towards the end of the season, that improved quite a bit. Run blocking has been pretty solid since.

In early 2012, pass protection was basically non-existent and RW did his best Fran Tarkenton impression just to stay alive and upright. By the end of the season, that improved a lot.

In 2013, I expect pretty good O-line play. Note that I left out the part about how 3/5ths of the O-line starters went down for a while, and we seemingly never missed a beat. That speaks to good coaching.

I'd say we're in pretty good shape on the O-line. We have solid talent and a group that has played and worked together for basically two full seasons without major changes or additions. Tom Cable is like the third O-line "guru" we've brought in over the past few years, and the first who seems to be delivering the goods. So yeah, I'm not too worried.

 

[RichNhansom]

good points sutz.

 

[volsunghawk]

No, I've been following the hawks since the 70's. I just remember last year a bunch of 4th and a foot and getting stuffed.
Seems like we just didn't have the raw muscle.

No, you don't remember a "bunch of 4th and a foot getting stuffed" last year.

Last season, we had 21 situations where we went for it on 4th down (that is, we weren't punting or kicking a FG).

Of those 21 situations:

5 of them were incomplete passes (2 in the first game against Arizona, 1 against Green Bay, 1 in the 2nd game against Arizona as Flynn was getting reps, and 1 when we were up by 10 against the Skins in the 4th quarter).

3 were QB sneaks for a 1st down on 4th and 1 (against Dallas and twice against Minnesota).

2 were TD passes (the infamous TD to Tate against GB and the TD to Edwards against New England).

1 was a completion, but for less than a 1st down (16 yd completion to Obomanu on 4th and 17 against SF).

5 were completions for 1st downs (1 at Detroit, 1 against Minnesota, 1 against the Jets, 1 at Chicago, and 1 while killing clock against the Skins).

2 were rushes for 1st downs (Lynch for 3 on 4th and 1 against GB, Robinson for 29 on 4th and 4 against Buffalo).

1 was an intentional safety against Carolina.

So that leaves a whole 2 times when we had 4th down, ran the ball, and didn't get the 1st down. One was while we were killing clock late against Dallas with a 20 point lead (in Dallas territory, no less). And the other was the 1 yard loss and turnover on downs against Atlanta.

That's it.

If you want to voice concerns over our O-line, that's cool... just don't make up stuff in order to justify your view.

 

[Uffda]

That last Rams game in Seattle .....

 

[Basis4day]

No, I've been following the hawks since the 70's. I just remember last year a bunch of 4th and a foot and getting stuffed.
Seems like we just didn't have the raw muscle.

No, you don't remember a "bunch of 4th and a foot getting stuffed" last year.

Last season, we had 21 situations where we went for it on 4th down (that is, we weren't punting or kicking a FG).

Of those 21 situations:

5 of them were incomplete passes (2 in the first game against Arizona, 1 against Green Bay, 1 in the 2nd game against Arizona as Flynn was getting reps, and 1 when we were up by 10 against the Skins in the 4th quarter).

3 were QB sneaks for a 1st down on 4th and 1 (against Dallas and twice against Minnesota).

2 were TD passes (the infamous TD to Tate against GB and the TD to Edwards against New England).

1 was a completion, but for less than a 1st down (16 yd completion to Obomanu on 4th and 17 against SF).

5 were completions for 1st downs (1 at Detroit, 1 against Minnesota, 1 against the Jets, 1 at Chicago, and 1 while killing clock against the Skins).

2 were rushes for 1st downs (Lynch for 3 on 4th and 1 against GB, Robinson for 29 on 4th and 4 against Buffalo).

1 was an intentional safety against Carolina.

So that leaves a whole 2 times when we had 4th down, ran the ball, and didn't get the 1st down. One was while we were killing clock late against Dallas with a 20 point lead (in Dallas territory, no less). And the other was the 1 yard loss and turnover on downs against Atlanta.

That's it.

If you want to voice concerns over our O-line, that's cool... just don't make up stuff in order to justify your view.

:snack:

 

[pehawk]

No, I've been following the hawks since the 70's. I just remember last year a bunch of 4th and a foot and getting stuffed.
Seems like we just didn't have the raw muscle.

No, you don't remember a "bunch of 4th and a foot getting stuffed" last year.

Last season, we had 21 situations where we went for it on 4th down (that is, we weren't punting or kicking a FG).

Of those 21 situations:

5 of them were incomplete passes (2 in the first game against Arizona, 1 against Green Bay, 1 in the 2nd game against Arizona as Flynn was getting reps, and 1 when we were up by 10 against the Skins in the 4th quarter).

3 were QB sneaks for a 1st down on 4th and 1 (against Dallas and twice against Minnesota).

2 were TD passes (the infamous TD to Tate against GB and the TD to Edwards against New England).

1 was a completion, but for less than a 1st down (16 yd completion to Obomanu on 4th and 17 against SF).

5 were completions for 1st downs (1 at Detroit, 1 against Minnesota, 1 against the Jets, 1 at Chicago, and 1 while killing clock against the Skins).

2 were rushes for 1st downs (Lynch for 3 on 4th and 1 against GB, Robinson for 29 on 4th and 4 against Buffalo).

1 was an intentional safety against Carolina.

So that leaves a whole 2 times when we had 4th down, ran the ball, and didn't get the 1st down. One was while we were killing clock late against Dallas with a 20 point lead (in Dallas territory, no less). And the other was the 1 yard loss and turnover on downs against Atlanta.

That's it.

If you want to voice concerns over our O-line, that's cool... just don't make up stuff in order to justify your view.

This made me chuckle.

But, Lee-roy, just know vols still likes Goth rock. So, you'll always have that card to play.

 

[volsunghawk]

No, I've been following the hawks since the 70's. I just remember last year a bunch of 4th and a foot and getting stuffed.
Seems like we just didn't have the raw muscle.

No, you don't remember a "bunch of 4th and a foot getting stuffed" last year.

Last season, we had 21 situations where we went for it on 4th down (that is, we weren't punting or kicking a FG).

Of those 21 situations:

5 of them were incomplete passes (2 in the first game against Arizona, 1 against Green Bay, 1 in the 2nd game against Arizona as Flynn was getting reps, and 1 when we were up by 10 against the Skins in the 4th quarter).

3 were QB sneaks for a 1st down on 4th and 1 (against Dallas and twice against Minnesota).

2 were TD passes (the infamous TD to Tate against GB and the TD to Edwards against New England).

1 was a completion, but for less than a 1st down (16 yd completion to Obomanu on 4th and 17 against SF).

5 were completions for 1st downs (1 at Detroit, 1 against Minnesota, 1 against the Jets, 1 at Chicago, and 1 while killing clock against the Skins).

2 were rushes for 1st downs (Lynch for 3 on 4th and 1 against GB, Robinson for 29 on 4th and 4 against Buffalo).

1 was an intentional safety against Carolina.

So that leaves a whole 2 times when we had 4th down, ran the ball, and didn't get the 1st down. One was while we were killing clock late against Dallas with a 20 point lead (in Dallas territory, no less). And the other was the 1 yard loss and turnover on downs against Atlanta.

That's it.

If you want to voice concerns over our O-line, that's cool... just don't make up stuff in order to justify your view.

This made me chuckle.

But, Lee-roy, just know vols still likes Goth rock. So, you'll always have that card to play.

I'll have you know that I was listening to Canadian doom metal while compiling that list. That's like, 4 or 5 genres removed from goth rock. :mrgreen:

 

[Attyla the Hawk]

That last Rams game in Seattle .....

This is a case of not taking your opponent seriously.

St. Louis has methodically rebuilt and improved their defense. Their DL is the best in this division in my opinion. We struggled against them in 2011 and 2012. But you know who else struggled with them? San Fransisco.

They are not pushovers in that department. Truth be told, they are kind of similar to the Cleveland Browns in that regard. Both have very good talent on the D Line. The teams aren't successful and so it's assumed that their DL is part of that. But they are not.

We don't have the quality on the DL that St. Louis has. And honestly, that unit improved dramatically as Quinn and Brockers started to come into their own. They should be considerably better this upcoming season.

 

[bestfightstory]

No, I've been following the hawks since the 70's. I just remember last year a bunch of 4th and a foot and getting stuffed.
Seems like we just didn't have the raw muscle.

No, you don't remember a "bunch of 4th and a foot getting stuffed" last year.

Last season, we had 21 situations where we went for it on 4th down (that is, we weren't punting or kicking a FG).

Of those 21 situations:

5 of them were incomplete passes (2 in the first game against Arizona, 1 against Green Bay, 1 in the 2nd game against Arizona as Flynn was getting reps, and 1 when we were up by 10 against the Skins in the 4th quarter).

3 were QB sneaks for a 1st down on 4th and 1 (against Dallas and twice against Minnesota).

2 were TD passes (the infamous TD to Tate against GB and the TD to Edwards against New England).

1 was a completion, but for less than a 1st down (16 yd completion to Obomanu on 4th and 17 against SF).

5 were completions for 1st downs (1 at Detroit, 1 against Minnesota, 1 against the Jets, 1 at Chicago, and 1 while killing clock against the Skins).

2 were rushes for 1st downs (Lynch for 3 on 4th and 1 against GB, Robinson for 29 on 4th and 4 against Buffalo).

1 was an intentional safety against Carolina.

So that leaves a whole 2 times when we had 4th down, ran the ball, and didn't get the 1st down. One was while we were killing clock late against Dallas with a 20 point lead (in Dallas territory, no less). And the other was the 1 yard loss and turnover on downs against Atlanta.

That's it.

If you want to voice concerns over our O-line, that's cool... just don't make up stuff in order to justify your view.

Well done, man. Well done.

 

[olyfan63]

We sucked at pass protection much of the year. Sweezy growing pains (learning his reads) a big factor there. Wilson bailed us out by running for his life and finding people on the run. With a less mobile QB, we probably lead the league in sacks-against. Great run-blocking unit, way-below-average pass pro unit. The stats/rankings make us look way better than we were; basically, I feel like we'd be last in pass pro except for Russell Wilson's excellent escapability. Imagine Dan McGwire or Kelly Stouffer, behind that line. Ouch. Imagine the immortal Pete Gross calling, "McGwire, back to pass... sacked! The 12th sack this game for the Rams." Even quick-read, quick-decision Kurt Warner behind that line would take a hellacious battering.

Granted, some of the pass-pro issues may have been by design, a matter of PC conscious choice priorities, that PC just trusted Russell to sense the pressure, avoid it, and make plays.

 

[RichNhansom]

We sucked at pass protection much of the year. Sweezy growing pains (learning his reads) a big factor there. Wilson bailed us out by running for his life and finding people on the run. With a less mobile QB, we probably lead the league in sacks-against. Great run-blocking unit, way-below-average pass pro unit. The stats/rankings make us look way better than we were; basically, I feel like we'd be last in pass pro except for Russell Wilson's excellent escapability. Imagine Dan McGwire or Kelly Stouffer, behind that line. Ouch. Imagine the immortal Pete Gross calling, "McGwire, back to pass... sacked! The 12th sack this game for the Rams." Even quick-read, quick-decision Kurt Warner behind that line would take a hellacious battering.

Granted, some of the pass-pro issues may have been by design, a matter of PC conscious choice priorities, that PC just trusted Russell to sense the pressure, avoid it, and make plays.

You seem to have either skipped over some of the other posts or maybe your not willing to see Wilson's part in the line struggles.

Keep in mind Wilson was a rookie so he will have area's he can improve on and pocket presence was one of his biggest but also an area he made significant improvement on as the year went along.

You are correct about guys like McGuire and even Jackson is a good example like he was the previous year but a very large part of O-line success is tied to how long the line is required to hold their blocks and last year our line was required to hold their blocks longer than any other line. They also didn't have the benefit (early in the year) of knowing that Wilson was staying in the pocket so they were tasked with a job nearly twice as difficult as other lines.

As the year progressed Wilson utilized the pocket better and pass protection improved. Hopefully with the addition of Harvin we will see a significant drop in the amount of time the line is required to sustain their blocks. If that happens we could be looking at one of the better lines in the league.

I believe this is why you didn't see a significant amount of emphasis on acquiring new lineman this off season or in the draft. The part of the system that needed improvement had little to do with the quality of the individual lineman and everything to do with the job they were tasked to do.

 

[olyfan63]

Wilson's mobility and ability to improvise saved the day time after time.
Agreed about Wilson holding the ball, holding the ball, and the O-line having to hold blocks extra long.
I was picking on Sweezy more for his difficulty in picking up and adjusting to pre-snap defensive shifts, and left Wilson running for his life way sooner than I'm sure Bevell wanted. Dude was a beast on run blocking though. There is a video on YouTube, Russell Wilson's defining moment, that shows the two TD drives against the Bears. That one is an interesting one to watch. There was a nice Lynch 10-yard run in there where Sweezy takes out what looks like 3 defenders and clears the path. OOPS, that was MOFFITT!! as maligned as Moffitt was, he looked pretty good on the TWO game-winning TD drives vs. the Bears. As best as I can tell, Sweezy was not on the field for those two drives; coaches preferred Moffitt's pass-pro skills at crunch time, apparently.

I'm with you that the line just being together in the same system, same coordinators, a year more experienced will make a huge difference this year.

 

[Perfundle]

We sucked at pass protection much of the year. Sweezy growing pains (learning his reads) a big factor there. Wilson bailed us out by running for his life and finding people on the run. With a less mobile QB, we probably lead the league in sacks-against. Great run-blocking unit, way-below-average pass pro unit. The stats/rankings make us look way better than we were; basically, I feel like we'd be last in pass pro except for Russell Wilson's excellent escapability. Imagine Dan McGwire or Kelly Stouffer, behind that line. Ouch. Imagine the immortal Pete Gross calling, "McGwire, back to pass... sacked! The 12th sack this game for the Rams." Even quick-read, quick-decision Kurt Warner behind that line would take a hellacious battering.

Granted, some of the pass-pro issues may have been by design, a matter of PC conscious choice priorities, that PC just trusted Russell to sense the pressure, avoid it, and make plays.

You know who else that describes? San Francisco. Both coaches/GMs clearly made the decision to sacrifice a bit of pass-protection for run-blocking, and it seems to have paid off.

 

[Perfundle]

No, I've been following the hawks since the 70's. I just remember last year a bunch of 4th and a foot and getting stuffed.
Seems like we just didn't have the raw muscle.

Beyond what volsung mentioned, Seattle was 4th in the league at converting 3rd/4th and 2 yards or less by running, at 70%. They were also 1st at not getting stuffed at the line of scrimmage for zero or negative yards. So if Seattle is bad at that, everybody else is worse.