Nail in the Coffin

[TwistedHusky]

Maybe, but Pete is THE reason that Wilson hasn't done well in the playoffs since the SB loss.

If the fans can see that, almost certainly Wilson does.

And Wilson believes strongly in his ability. How do you think he feels about a coach that wants to focus a strategy based on not using Wilson as effectively as he could?

The whole thread is whether this is going to be an ongoing theme or over.

Considering that Wilson is a strong believer in his ability, you don't think Wilson isn't going to want more Wilson in the gameplans? Because that is what he said he wants. More say. More input. Want to bet some of that input will be 'use me more and use me more effectively'?

And if the coaches shake him off as he stated they have done? Do you think he will be OK with it?

Wilson probably (and likely rightfully) believes that this winning has been because of his greatness. You don't think he can be great elsewhere?

Because in the past he stated he wants to be great elsewhere.

Ultimately this will not be about what we think, agree on, or even what is true. It will be about what Wilson believes, and it is hard to think that Wilson does not believe that he could be better if only the team bet on him more and focused on maximizing his success. (Since that is basically what he already said in pounding the table for better protection and more use of him)

He supposedly already gave an ultimatum to Carroll. If that is the case, there is probably more to follow if Carroll continues to do things the way did in the past.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Absolutely. They have been outcoached in the playoffs massively since losing 49. Period.

 

[hox]

Absolutely. They have been outcoached in the playoffs massively since losing 49. Period.

Yes and no.

Against Dallas, the offense did not play well.. Janikowski misses a FG at the end of the half, and couldn't play in the second. Untimely penalties also killed us. Looking back at that roster as a whole, it really wasn't very good. Yet we still made the playoffs.

Against GB, all the RBs were injured. An old Marshawn Lynch, fresh off serving tequila shots to Raider fans, was our starter. Malik Turner dropped a for sure first down catch late in the 4th, that could have led to the comeback win. That roster wasn't that good either.

Against LA, it was a collective cluster. The game plan was terrible, the execution was bad, and the defense couldn't stop the run when they needed to. It would be inaccurate to assign blame on any individual coach/player/position group for that game.

Moving forward into this season, I am much more confident about the roster and the scheme. However, the division looks to be more competitive as well. So it will be another dog fight for the title. It will all come down to how much command Russ will have with this new offense. The defense should continue to improve, giving Russ short fields to work with.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Maybe, but Pete is THE reason that Wilson hasn't done well in the playoffs since the SB loss.

If the fans can see that, almost certainly Wilson does.

And Wilson believes strongly in his ability. How do you think he feels about a coach that wants to focus a strategy based on not using Wilson as effectively as he could?

If we look at Wilson's college and pro career, I'd say Wilson IS doing what he does well..........use a good run game for play action and extend plays so he can make plays downfield.

It's why he was a pick throwing machine in North Carolina State (25 in two years), and all of a sudden blossomed at Wisconsin, because their offense is very similar to how Pete and our coordinators catered to Russell's skill set.

So you and Russell can think all you want about his ability, and how we're not taking advantage of how amazing he is.......but he's responsible for a LOT of the mistakes last year, including a terrible performance in the Rams playoff game, and IMO Pete doesn't get enough credit for how he's molded the offense around that skill set.

Sure, maybe he waited 3-4 years too long to hire a more dynamic coordinator like Waldron that can hopefully take Russell's mastery of the league and offense to the next level and give up some control. But that' still "hopefully." We shall see.

Again, I can't go there. It all matters, Wilson's failures are on him as much as they are on Pete, coordinators, playcalling, scheme, personnel and whatever else you want to shift blame to other than Russell.

 

[TwistedHusky]

That is the point Largent.

You might be right. I could be completely off-base or you could convince me completely.

But this isn't about that.

It is about whether Wilson believes Carroll is helping him or hindering him. When you give an ultimatum to your HC (which is conjecture a bit, but there is enough smoke around this...including reports on this the season before last, that you could consider this likely), you are clearly indicating you feel your HC is hindering you.

If Wilson has been misinterpreted and some of what is written about his frustration with the FO is not true? We might be fine.

But if Wilson did call out his coach and did push back on this staff? Then no, he will be pushing back next offseason. Especially if there are voices whispering in his ear how good he might be elsewhere.

Either way, it is hard to argue that Carroll's gameday coaching helps this team. And if half the fan base sees this, there is also a good chance Wilson might too.

 

[hox]

I don't think Russ believes his HC is hindering him. If he does, I think they talked, and worked it out.

No way he believes the grass is greener with those 4 other teams... If he's truly concerned about legacy, and SB wins, then Seattle is still his best bet.

All the offseason hullabaloo was an attempt to deflect and change the narrative about his poor play during that second half collapse last season. And it worked, masterfully. After all, he will be up for a new contact soon, and undoubtedly, he will want to be among the highest paid QBs again. His agent is very shrewd.

The talk about his legacy is nice, but let's not forget about the money and personal branding aspect as well. Russ needs the $$$ if he truly intends to own an NFL franchise one day.

 

[John63]

Maybe, but Pete is THE reason that Wilson hasn't done well in the playoffs since the SB loss.

If the fans can see that, almost certainly Wilson does.

And Wilson believes strongly in his ability. How do you think he feels about a coach that wants to focus a strategy based on not using Wilson as effectively as he could?

If we look at Wilson's college and pro career, I'd say Wilson IS doing what he does well..........use a good run game for play action and extend plays so he can make plays downfield.

It's why he was a pick throwing machine in North Carolina State (25 in two years), and all of a sudden blossomed at Wisconsin, because their offense is very similar to how Pete and our coordinators catered to Russell's skill set.

So you and Russell can think all you want about his ability, and how we're not taking advantage of how amazing he is.......but he's responsible for a LOT of the mistakes last year, including a terrible performance in the Rams playoff game, and IMO Pete doesn't get enough credit for how he's molded the offense around that skill set.

Sure, maybe he waited 3-4 years too long to hire a more dynamic coordinator like Waldron that can hopefully take Russell's mastery of the league and offense to the next level and give up some control. But that' still "hopefully." We shall see.

Again, I can't go there. It all matters, Wilson's failures are on him as much as they are on Pete, coordinators, playcalling, scheme, personnel and whatever else you want to shift blame to other than Russell.

first no one every said Wilson was blameless. Its just unlike some here we understand there are others to blame as well. PC being far and away the biggest.

Now lets look at your college analysis

2008 NC rush yards per game 123 Wilson 17tds -1 int
2009 NC rush yards per game 120 Wilson 31-11
2010 NC Rush yards per game 123 Wilson 28-14

Now what changed was the style of play NC went to run at all cost. this equated to alot of 3rd and long. There 3rd and long plays went up every year also the number of runs on first and 2nd down went up as well. Which equated to alot of 3rd and long. When he went to Wisconsin while they also ran a lot, but they were not run on 1st and 2nd and Wilson's needing to throw on 3rd and long went down.

So not really what you said. NO QB is going to look good throwing 3rd and long continually. Also what you fail to mention is that a lot of the reason these teams were so good at running was Wilson.

Again not saying Wilson does not have culpability, he does, but so does PC.

 

[John63]

I don't think Russ believes his HC is hindering him. If he does, I think they talked, and worked it out.

No way he believes the grass is greener with those 4 other teams... If he's truly concerned about legacy, and SB wins, then Seattle is still his best bet.

All the offseason hullabaloo was an attempt to deflect and change the narrative about his poor play during that second half collapse last season. And it worked, masterfully. After all, he will be up for a new contact soon, and undoubtedly, he will want to be among the highest paid QBs again. His agent is very shrewd.

The talk about his legacy is nice, but let's not forget about the money and personal branding aspect as well. Russ needs the $$$ if he truly intends to own an NFL franchise one day.

okay that is an opinion on what may or may not have been going on. Again though no one on this board really knows. Any opinion on what was happening does nothing more than shows you stance on the team, PC and Wilson.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Maybe, but Pete is THE reason that Wilson hasn't done well in the playoffs since the SB loss.

If the fans can see that, almost certainly Wilson does.

And Wilson believes strongly in his ability. How do you think he feels about a coach that wants to focus a strategy based on not using Wilson as effectively as he could?

If we look at Wilson's college and pro career, I'd say Wilson IS doing what he does well..........use a good run game for play action and extend plays so he can make plays downfield.

It's why he was a pick throwing machine in North Carolina State (25 in two years), and all of a sudden blossomed at Wisconsin, because their offense is very similar to how Pete and our coordinators catered to Russell's skill set.

So you and Russell can think all you want about his ability, and how we're not taking advantage of how amazing he is.......but he's responsible for a LOT of the mistakes last year, including a terrible performance in the Rams playoff game, and IMO Pete doesn't get enough credit for how he's molded the offense around that skill set.

Sure, maybe he waited 3-4 years too long to hire a more dynamic coordinator like Waldron that can hopefully take Russell's mastery of the league and offense to the next level and give up some control. But that' still "hopefully." We shall see.

Again, I can't go there. It all matters, Wilson's failures are on him as much as they are on Pete, coordinators, playcalling, scheme, personnel and whatever else you want to shift blame to other than Russell.

first no one every said Wilson was blameless. Its just unlike some here we understand there are others to blame as well. PC being far and away the biggest.

Now lets look at your college analysis

2008 NC rush yards per game 123 Wilson 17tds -1 int
2009 NC rush yards per game 120 Wilson 31-11
2010 NC Rush yards per game 123 Wilson 28-14

Now what changed was the style of play NC went to run at all cost. this equated to alot of 3rd and long. There 3rd and long plays went up every year also the number of runs on first and 2nd down went up as well. Which equated to alot of 3rd and long. When he went to Wisconsin while they also ran a lot, but they were not run on 1st and 2nd and Wilson's needing to throw on 3rd and long went down.

So not really what you said. NO QB is going to look good throwing 3rd and long continually. Also what you fail to mention is that a lot of the reason these teams were so good at running was Wilson.

Again not saying Wilson does not have culpability, he does, but so does PC.

Brock Huard was on KIRO Sports this morning talking about this subject, and said if you look at Russell's college history, at NC State he had a harder time with their more traditional short passing game offense where Russell had to get the ball out on time with one throw reads, etc.

And he turned the ball over a lot, thus which I imagine expedited his departure into baseball land and eventually to Wisconsin.

My point is not to go back almost 15 years and critique a 19 year old Russell Wilson. My point is to say maybe Pete has done a better job than you guys think in creating an offense scheme to caters to what Russell does do well, just like at Wisconsin.

Not saying Waldron hopefully can't unlock even more and take Russell to the MVP caliber level he thinks he's at.

But that might require Russell to do those quick one progression reads, outs, crossing patterns, hitches, etc that IMO isn't his strong suit.

Again, we shall see. But bottom line for me, I can't just go along with the Pete's holding Russell back narrative until I see otherwise. Because "holding back" is a silly thing to think of an elite top 5 QB who's going to put on a gold jacket when he retires.

 

[hox]

I don't think Russ believes his HC is hindering him. If he does, I think they talked, and worked it out.

No way he believes the grass is greener with those 4 other teams... If he's truly concerned about legacy, and SB wins, then Seattle is still his best bet.

All the offseason hullabaloo was an attempt to deflect and change the narrative about his poor play during that second half collapse last season. And it worked, masterfully. After all, he will be up for a new contact soon, and undoubtedly, he will want to be among the highest paid QBs again. His agent is very shrewd.

The talk about his legacy is nice, but let's not forget about the money and personal branding aspect as well. Russ needs the $$$ if he truly intends to own an NFL franchise one day.

okay that is an opinion on what may or may not have been going on. Again though no one on this board really knows. Any opinion on what was happening does nothing more than shows you stance on the team, PC and Wilson.

Opinions. Message boards. That's what people do.

I do think Russ was frustrated with being hit a lot, and the lack of emphasis on acquiring top-tier lineman over the years.

But at the same time, Russell's agent's job is to maximize his next contract. The media talking about his sub par play, and why he can't get a single MVP vote, wasn't going to help. But all the talk about those other teams looking to trade the farm for his services? That definitely drives up his value.

Ideally, Russ plays out of his mind this year, finally gets the MVP, and gets that fat contract he's looking for.

If he doesn't, look for more deflection, or ways for him to maximize that contract - even if it means, it's with another team.

 

[John63]

Maybe, but Pete is THE reason that Wilson hasn't done well in the playoffs since the SB loss.

If the fans can see that, almost certainly Wilson does.

And Wilson believes strongly in his ability. How do you think he feels about a coach that wants to focus a strategy based on not using Wilson as effectively as he could?

If we look at Wilson's college and pro career, I'd say Wilson IS doing what he does well..........use a good run game for play action and extend plays so he can make plays downfield.

It's why he was a pick throwing machine in North Carolina State (25 in two years), and all of a sudden blossomed at Wisconsin, because their offense is very similar to how Pete and our coordinators catered to Russell's skill set.

So you and Russell can think all you want about his ability, and how we're not taking advantage of how amazing he is.......but he's responsible for a LOT of the mistakes last year, including a terrible performance in the Rams playoff game, and IMO Pete doesn't get enough credit for how he's molded the offense around that skill set.

Sure, maybe he waited 3-4 years too long to hire a more dynamic coordinator like Waldron that can hopefully take Russell's mastery of the league and offense to the next level and give up some control. But that' still "hopefully." We shall see.

Again, I can't go there. It all matters, Wilson's failures are on him as much as they are on Pete, coordinators, playcalling, scheme, personnel and whatever else you want to shift blame to other than Russell.

first no one every said Wilson was blameless. Its just unlike some here we understand there are others to blame as well. PC being far and away the biggest.

Now lets look at your college analysis

2008 NC rush yards per game 123 Wilson 17tds -1 int
2009 NC rush yards per game 120 Wilson 31-11
2010 NC Rush yards per game 123 Wilson 28-14

Now what changed was the style of play NC went to run at all cost. this equated to alot of 3rd and long. There 3rd and long plays went up every year also the number of runs on first and 2nd down went up as well. Which equated to alot of 3rd and long. When he went to Wisconsin while they also ran a lot, but they were not run on 1st and 2nd and Wilson's needing to throw on 3rd and long went down.

So not really what you said. NO QB is going to look good throwing 3rd and long continually. Also what you fail to mention is that a lot of the reason these teams were so good at running was Wilson.

Again not saying Wilson does not have culpability, he does, but so does PC.

Brock Huard was on KIRO Sports this morning talking about this subject, and said if you look at Russell's college history, at NC State he had a harder time with their more traditional short passing game offense where Russell had to get the ball out on time with one throw reads, etc.

And he turned the ball over a lot, thus which I imagine expedited his departure into baseball land and eventually to Wisconsin.

My point is not to go back almost 15 years and critique a 19 year old Russell Wilson. My point is to say maybe Pete has done a better job than you guys think in creating an offense scheme to caters to what Russell does do well, just like at Wisconsin.

Not saying Waldron hopefully can't unlock even more and take Russell to the MVP caliber level he thinks he's at.

But that might require Russell to do those quick one progression reads, outs, crossing patterns, hitches, etc that IMO isn't his strong suit.

Again, we shall see. But bottom line for me, I can't just go along with the Pete's holding Russell back narrative until I see otherwise. Because "holding back" is a silly thing to think of an elite top 5 QB who's going to put on a gold jacket when he retires.

except that does not explain the first year at NC state where he did great. as to the holding back, okay you can believe that but it is obvious to almost everyone, Every heard of succeeding in spite of someone. As to not his strong suite I guess you missed 2015.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

except that does not explain the first year at NC state where he did great. as to the holding back, okay you can believe that but it is obvious to almost everyone, Every heard of succeeding in spite of someone. As to not his strong suite I guess you missed 2015.

Not sure how it can be obvious to anyone when you haven't ever seen Russell in any other pro offense that would prove your points.

But you guys go on with your bad Pete bashing selves, I'll be over here waiting to see said evidence. Although I'm sure the first time Russell throws 2-3 picks in a game, you and others will be back on the fire Pete and now fire Waldron band wagons.

Maybe..............just maybe.......................we're seeing Russell's ceiling. I know, shocking to think this is the best he's ever going to play, regardless of HC or offense.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Largent,

Are you then contending that Wilson wouldn't be as good under another coach?

Or that Wilson wouldn't do as well in the playoffs anywhere else?



Or that Carroll does not have key flaws that will keep him from succeeding again or advancing in a divisional game?

If none of the above, what do you mean? Can you clarify?


Just curious...

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Largent,

Are you then contending that Wilson wouldn't be as good under another coach?

Or that Wilson wouldn't do as well in the playoffs anywhere else?



Or that Carroll does not have key flaws that will keep him from succeeding again or advancing in a divisional game?

If none of the above, what do you mean? Can you clarify?


Just curious...

What coach? What offense? What's the offensive personnel? Who's the coordinator?

You really think Russell would thrive on one of his four "teams I'd choose to be traded to even though I never asked for a trade?" The amazing offensive brilliance of Matt Nagy or John Gruden really blows you away huh?

I bash Pete, he needed to give up more control of the offense a long time ago, but just to say Russell would thrive elsewhere or with a different HC? How can you say that without answering all of my questions of who, where, etc?

Because you can install the HC of your dreams, that might mean other things that Pete does very well organizationally and culturally leave with Pete, and might not be as strong with a different HC.

 

[John63]

Largent,

Are you then contending that Wilson wouldn't be as good under another coach?

Or that Wilson wouldn't do as well in the playoffs anywhere else?



Or that Carroll does not have key flaws that will keep him from succeeding again or advancing in a divisional game?

If none of the above, what do you mean? Can you clarify?


Just curious...

What coach? What offense? What's the offensive personnel? Who's the coordinator?

You really think Russell would thrive on one of his four "teams I'd choose to be traded to even though I never asked for a trade?" The amazing offensive brilliance of Matt Nagy or John Gruden really blows you away huh?

I bash Pete, he needed to give up more control of the offense a long time ago, but just to say Russell would thrive elsewhere or with a different HC? How can you say that without answering all of my questions of who, where, etc?

Because you can install the HC of your dreams, that might mean other things that Pete does very well organizationally and culturally leave with Pete, and might not be as strong with a different HC.

There are several teams and coaches that Wilson would thrive with. KC, Baltimore, NE, NO, LA, just to name a few. Why because all those teams created systems built around their QB. Something PC till now has been unwilling to do.

But again PC without Wilson is below 500 in his NFL career adn with the Hawks, with Wilson over 600 and with Wilson and no LOD still over 500. So enough said.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Largent,

Are you then contending that Wilson wouldn't be as good under another coach?

Or that Wilson wouldn't do as well in the playoffs anywhere else?



Or that Carroll does not have key flaws that will keep him from succeeding again or advancing in a divisional game?

If none of the above, what do you mean? Can you clarify?


Just curious...

What coach? What offense? What's the offensive personnel? Who's the coordinator?

You really think Russell would thrive on one of his four "teams I'd choose to be traded to even though I never asked for a trade?" The amazing offensive brilliance of Matt Nagy or John Gruden really blows you away huh?

I bash Pete, he needed to give up more control of the offense a long time ago, but just to say Russell would thrive elsewhere or with a different HC? How can you say that without answering all of my questions of who, where, etc?

Because you can install the HC of your dreams, that might mean other things that Pete does very well organizationally and culturally leave with Pete, and might not be as strong with a different HC.

There are several teams and coaches that Wilson would thrive with. KC, Baltimore, NE, NO, LA, just to name a few. Why because all those teams created systems built around their QB. Something PC till now has been unwilling to do.

But again PC without Wilson is below 500 in his NFL career adn with the Hawks, with Wilson over 600 and with Wilson and no LOD still over 500. So enough said.

If your premise for your argument is the record for the two season Pete coached in Seattle rebuilding and turning the entire roster over before Russell got here, and oh won a SB playing with one of the greatest defenses ever assembled.........that was drafted and developed by............wait for it.......................Pete Carroll?

Then we can just end this conversation.

Yep Russell's a great QB. Yep Pete probably should have hired a Waldron type coordinator 3-4 years ago and gave up more control of the offense as Russell entered his prime and was able to handle more of the offense.

But the rest of what you guys are saying is pure unadulterated guessing and conjecture that Russell would be EVEN BETTER on another team or with a different HC. You don't know that, and I don't know that. It's just a lazy easy excuse for when the Hawks lose. Oh, must be Pete's fault!

The reality is the reason we haven't gotten back to a SB really has zero to do with Russell, or the offense. That side of the ball is a top 10 pts scored offense. It's the fact that the defense has been mediocre to bad. So if you want to bag on Pete, then bag on his inability to draft, acquire and develop another elite defense, not how he's "held back" Russell.

 

[LTH]

Carroll wins because he has Wilson?

for a long time the D carries the O... and for a long time it was ML that carried the O..

But Pete Carroll and JS had the instincts to draft Wilson and they built this team for years.. so yeah Wilson has saved the Seahawks a number of times with pro bowl play... but it's not just about Wilson it never has been JUST about Wilson football is a team sport and so your point is misleading and quite frankly wrong. If Wilson left Carroll would find another way to make this team win because he is a dynamic coach and JS is a dynamic creative GM they work well together! They win because Carroll has built an incredible organization not just because of Wilson...


LTH

problem is you make it all about PC, so to you, it can be all about PC but no all about Wilson or anyone else. problem is it is not, lets remember PC is sub 500 in the NFl without Wilson. he is over 600 with Wilson. As to the defense and Ml really, PC with a top 5 defense and ML was 7-9. So not so simple. If you ask me you only point is to make sure everyone gets credit but Wilson. The reality is the QB makes the coach and you need to go no farther than NE and Miami for proof.

Its not just about PC and I never indicated as much... Pete Carroll is the one who put it all together but he is a facilitator, that is where his strength is communication and his philosophy towards players bring everyone together and managing this team full of alfa males... Wilson is a piece of the puzzle just like Wagner and everybody else all the way down to the ball boy...Carrol is the one who created the current evolution of the Seahawks organization... If Pete Carroll left this organization and you inserted someone else they would not be able to make it function the way it does now they would have to start over completely... Pete Carroll is the one who holds it all together.. like him or hate him that's the truth...


LTH

your are right you did give some credit to JS as well however you said this "If Wilson left Carroll would find another way to make this team win because he is a dynamic coach and JS is a dynamic creative GM they work well together! " So if it woudl eb so easy for PC to make this teal great without Wilson how come he never could do it before? As top PC holding it all together you don't know that for all you know another coach would have done more. Aksi amazing your last post all about PC and nothing but PC really.


So let me guess this right " Wilson is a piece of the puzzle just like Wagner and everybody else all the way down to the ball boy...Carroll is the one who created the current evolution of the Seahawks organization." So like I said you are making it all about Carroll and yet sub 500 without Wilson over 600 with. You talk about PC like he is the NE Coach remind me how that went when he lost his QB? remind me how good the Tampa Coach looks now, compared to before Brady. The fact is a great QB is more important than a great coach.

Wilson is a product of Carroll... Carroll groomed him, coached him, made mistakes with him had great success with him. would Wilson be as good of a QB with out Carroll? Maybe but we will never know but I have to think that Carroll contributed as much to Wilson success as well as his failures and to think other wise is not giving credit where credit is due... Thats like saying bill walsh had nothing to do with Joe Montana's success and that's just not true...

You cant judge a coach because he wasn't successful his entire career it takes time to develop success in the NFL is rarely over night when you look at the whole picture... The NFL is the most competitive league in the world and to have success there is a really special thing... so yeah I give Carroll a lot of credit for creating the Seahawks organization but it's not all about Carroll its about everybody in the organization doing there job and Carroll facilitates that and sets the expectation as well manages this organization as a whole, success and failures


LTH

 

[TwistedHusky]

The theme of this thread is not whether WE would be frustrated with Carroll or why but whether WILSON would.

Carroll has won a SB. But it required one of the greatest defenses in NFL history with at least 3 HOF caliber players on it, where 2 should be locks.

Now we can debate whether Pete 'built' that defense or not, since it happened under his watch he gets the credit. But it almost assuredly won't happen again. And if Pete cannot build that defense again, then he probably is going to continue to fall short.

What Wilson does know is since the SB loss under Pete, the ceiling is a divisional playoff loss. It could be Pete's fault, Wilson's, or just the combination only works to that point - but expecting a massive difference after a decade where the results stay the same...even as everything else changes...probably makes no sense.

So the question is, would Wilson feel it makes sense to explore if the results would be different under someone else? Since he knows that no matter how long he stays with Carroll, they will always fall short in the divisional round of the playoffs. This year. Next year. Any other year they get there together.

As for being a top 10 offense? Are we one of the top offenses in the playoffs? I suspect our production dips significantly. More importantly, I wonder if our offense looks better in the second half vs the first?
And if so, could it have been better in the 1st halves?
Would that have made a difference in the leads we had to come back from or even our ability to come back in games?

When you answer that question, then ask yourself if Wilson might be asking himself those same questions?

HOF caliber QBs are extremely concerned about their legacy. In fact, the people I know who work with HOF players will tell you that getting into the HOF is more important than winning a SB to most of them. But, if near a decade of falling short in the playoffs starts to impact a player's legacy? Then they are often going to look to find a way to fix that, sometimes by changing scenery.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

HOF caliber QBs are extremely concerned about their legacy. In fact, the people I know who work with HOF players will tell you that getting into the HOF is more important than winning a SB to most of them. But, if near a decade of falling short in the playoffs starts to impact a player's legacy? Then they are often going to look to find a way to fix that, sometimes by changing scenery.

Everything you say is true, I'm only arguing the fact that you guys are living in a world of certainty, and I'm saying there is no proof or evidence to back up your and other's opinion including Russell himself that he'd be a better QB under another HC.

In fact I think this entire thing is blown out of proportion, especially from Wilson's camp. He rashly allowed his emotions after watching Brady in the SB to put out a public statement about not being happy with how he's being protected and used here, and everyone is using that as some indictment on Pete.

Pete and John did listen, and they have been listening to all their star players, especially Russell. Thus the hiring of Waldron, and numerous draft and personnel moves over the off season TO try to improve the offense and their relationship with their star QB.

It's Russell that for some reason needed his ego stroked and needed some attention showered upon him to feel heard. I can tell you one thing, I sure as hell trust the calm methodical approach that John and Pete have used to build our team into one of the top 5-10 franchises in the NFL for going on 12 years now, over a QB that spends his off seasons making cheesy IG Cabo posts and getting slimed on Nickelodeon award shows who doesn't spend even 1% of the time our personnel department and coaches do in player acquisition and development.

 

[Tinamedina]

I have no doubts there was some friction. Big deal, this is nothing new with QB's and their teams.
It was handled badly on both sides, move on.......

Doesn't matter what he does or says, many have made up their minds about the guy. Congrats.......
What an absolute waste of energy.

Ya know what I find amazing?

90% or so of this board had issues and complaints, now that this board is speculating that Russ had some complaints 90% or so of this board are faulting Russ for complaining.

This is a general statement not directed @ you.

Elite, great, good, average, or below average, the QB of any NFL is going to be limited by, or only as good as his supporting cast members.

Russ over the years has taken plenty of blame that wasn’t technically his.
He’s not perfect, he has his faults.

I’m just going to take his statements at face value.

Soulfish always takes any and all criticism towards the players or coaches as a personal attack.

No one's allowed to complain or criticize the Hawks, it's always Sunny in Hawkland for Soulfish.

I love Russell, I'm glad he's our QB. Dude's a top 5 QB, but he's also a corny bonehead that has an over inflated opinion of his football acumen and damage control skills. If we left the off season up to Russell, we'd trade away and spend all of our resources on idiots like Antonio Brown and other scrap heap has beens that Russell's buddies with.

It was last season that john schneider wasted millions signing players, just for those players to NOT pan out? Was it not john and pete who for last 9 years have picked dud after after dud after dud after dud in the draft? Oh yeah, Antonio brown? He won the superbowl, Wilson wanted him for a reason. Pete Carroll and John Schneider is the one whose football acumen is flimsy at best.


And this is the part where yall bring up the legion of boom and bobby wagner or whatever.