Nail in the Coffin

[pittpnthrs]

There is nothing wrong with a QB calling out a HC that is underproducing and hurting his team with poor decisions. The alternative is continuing to endure those decisions while spending valuable years in a finite football career being hamstrung by your own FO..

What about calling out his own teammates publicly?

Russell has every right to be angry and frustrated at whoever he wants to be angry and frustrated with, but he shouldn't have taken it public. Throwing his O-line and WR's under the bus by saying the organization hasn't put enough pieces around him?

That's crap. Keep it in house, that's the golden rule with sports.

But that's not the modern prima donna athlete anymore, they can't help themselves. It's all about them. Who cares if my statements undermine my own teammates and coaches trust in me, as long as I get what want right?

He wasnt wrong with what he said. The line sucked and he does need more talent around him. By keeping it in house, his words fell on deaf ears. Funny how he finally went public and some moves are finally being made. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do to get results. Russ made the right move.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

There is nothing wrong with a QB calling out a HC that is underproducing and hurting his team with poor decisions. The alternative is continuing to endure those decisions while spending valuable years in a finite football career being hamstrung by your own FO..

What about calling out his own teammates publicly?

Russell has every right to be angry and frustrated at whoever he wants to be angry and frustrated with, but he shouldn't have taken it public. Throwing his O-line and WR's under the bus by saying the organization hasn't put enough pieces around him?

That's crap. Keep it in house, that's the golden rule with sports.

But that's not the modern prima donna athlete anymore, they can't help themselves. It's all about them. Who cares if my statements undermine my own teammates and coaches trust in me, as long as I get what want right?

He wasnt wrong with what he said. The line sucked and he does need more talent around him. By keeping it in house, his words fell on deaf ears. Funny how he finally went public and some moves are finally being made. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do to get results. Russ made the right move.

Waldron was hired before Wilson went on Dan Patrick's show, and Jackson was signed what, 2-3 weeks after? Which means that was already in the works.

Which means Pete and John were already taking Russell's frustrations in house into consideration when they fired Schotty and hired Waldron and planned their off season moves.

So there was no reason for Russell to go public, it didn't do anything but make him look stupid and piss off his teammates.

 

[TwistedHusky]

But was he really calling out teammates?

Or was he actually calling out the decisioning, prioritization, and resource allocation in building and maintaining the lines?

Since we regularly try to throw TEs and pizza delivery guys in at OL, or just draft guys like Pocic that can play lots of positions but few really well - isn't that the issue?

The line needs to do better or we need to stop calling long developing pass plays without rolling the QB out.

Doesn't that sound more like the issue and not attacking or calling out teammates? Did he ever call out even a position group or side of the line that is failing him? Or was it more a plea to devote more focus on making that part of the team better? And maybe prioritizing productive players instead of trying to build them as you go?

He might be frustrated with the line and how it is being built. I don't think he ever called out any of the players.

Did he?

 

[Sgt. Largent]

But was he really calling out teammates?

Or was he actually calling out the decisioning, prioritization, and resource allocation in building and maintaining the lines?

Since we regularly try to throw TEs and pizza delivery guys in at OL, or just draft guys like Pocic that can play lots of positions but few really well - isn't that the issue?

The line needs to do better or we need to stop calling long developing pass plays without rolling the QB out.

Doesn't that sound more like the issue and not attacking or calling out teammates? Did he ever call out even a position group or side of the line that is failing him? Or was it more a plea to devote more focus on making that part of the team better? And maybe prioritizing productive players instead of trying to build them as you go?

He might be frustrated with the line and how it is being built. I don't think he ever called out any of the players.

Did he?

He said he was frustrated with being sacked over 400 times and being hit too much, and that the Seahawks need to do better in protecting him.

If you were one of his lineman, how would you take that?

Not much about the part where he holds onto the ball too long because he's trying to make plays downfield, and that contributes to a very larger percentage of those hits and sacks.

Again, this all stems from him being at the SB admiring Brady........but IMO that's a false equivalency for Wilson to be comparing himself to. He's not Brady, he doesn't play the same. Brady's a precision drop back passer that gets the ball out on time.

So his entire premise for being frustrated is flawed to me. Sure the Hawks could do better, so could every team that didn't win the SB. Bottom line, I sure as hell trust John, Pete and their scouting and player acquisition department far more than a guy who's doing photo ops on Cabo beaches and getting slimed in the off season hosting Nickelodeon Award shows, who all of a sudden fancies himself as a front office man.

 

[TwistedHusky]

The likely reality is that Wilson would win elsewhere without Carroll as his coach.
(Likely doing better in the playoffs.)

Carroll would likely not win without Wilson, certainly not on this team (maybe if we somehow got Minshew but without a QB that was effective AND elusive...slim chance).

As long as Wilson is the most important part of this team, and he is, what he wants is also the most important.

Back when Carroll was actually good at defense, he might have been more important. But those are past.

Carroll wins because he has Wilson. And so what Wilson wants, prefers, wishes, etc....matters most.

Because Wilson knows he can force his way out and without him Carroll would flounder.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Well said ^

Shoot, Lord Brady got what he wanted last year. Clearly
Rodgers and Watson have basically said they refuse to play for their current team in 2021.
Quarterbacks making it know what the need and/or want is nothing new.
Back when Manning said in a presser "Let's just say we had protection issues tonight" nobody seemed to care. It was looked at as Manning being passionate about winning etc.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The likely reality is that Wilson would win elsewhere without Carroll as his coach.
(Likely doing better in the playoffs.)

Carroll would likely not win without Wilson, certainly not on this team (maybe if we somehow got Minshew but without a QB that was effective AND elusive...slim chance).

As long as Wilson is the most important part of this team, and he is, what he wants is also the most important.

Back when Carroll was actually good at defense, he might have been more important. But those are past.

Carroll wins because he has Wilson. And so what Wilson wants, prefers, wishes, etc....matters most.

Because Wilson knows he can force his way out and without him Carroll would flounder.

I get as frustrated with Pete as much as anyone, but to compartmentalize the Hawks success and give only Russell credit, and not the rest of the team or coaches, etc is something I can't agree with.

If you feel that way, then you also have to give Russell 100% of the blame when we lose, and not just 100% of the credit when we win.

That's being dishonest in this discussion.

Pete's culture, style of coaching and the way he's rebuilt this organization from the ground up into the one of the most successful franchises in the entire league is also why Russell's going to be putting on a gold jacket one day.

So go ahead Russell, go to the Bears, Raiders or another team of your choosing and see how the other half lives. Because he'll find those other head coaches and coordinators aren't all that amazing either.

 

[TwistedHusky]

First you need to define 'success'.

The NFL has twisted the NFL rules to facilitate the success of NFL QBs. In doing this it almost prevents a team from being competitive without a top tier QB. Even more so than it already was.

So if you have a top 5 QB in the NFL, and Wilson is considered to be that by many experts, then making the playoffs should be almost an expectation.

The problem is the production in the playoffs is subpar for almost 8 years. And much of that can be pinned on not using Wilson effectively early enough. So no, it is difficult to put that blame on Wilson unless he is given the opportunity and falls flat (like last year in the playoffs).

Even blaming him for last year seems a stretch given the context but if you want to blame him you can.

Still, you would have a hard time arguing that this roster, with the #2-#5 QB, shouldn't win a single divisional playoff game in almost eight years. And most of that was due to a coach refusing to put gameplans that have realistic chances of success in place.

You could argue the coach built the roster but giving him credit for producing a better roster hardly matters if he produces as if he had a significantly worse roster.

Do you believe that is on Wilson?

How many games has Wilson won for us despite Pete failing to be effective tactically or strategically?

Now how many games has Carroll won for us despite Wilson failing to produce?

I would argue the latter is less than a handful while the former is more times than most of us can count on several sets of hands.

 

[xray]

Next please . :snack:

 

[John63]

The likely reality is that Wilson would win elsewhere without Carroll as his coach.
(Likely doing better in the playoffs.)

Carroll would likely not win without Wilson, certainly not on this team (maybe if we somehow got Minshew but without a QB that was effective AND elusive...slim chance).

As long as Wilson is the most important part of this team, and he is, what he wants is also the most important.

Back when Carroll was actually good at defense, he might have been more important. But those are past.

Carroll wins because he has Wilson. And so what Wilson wants, prefers, wishes, etc....matters most.

Because Wilson knows he can force his way out and without him Carroll would flounder.

I get as frustrated with Pete as much as anyone, but to compartmentalize the Hawks success and give only Russell credit, and not the rest of the team or coaches, etc is something I can't agree with.

If you feel that way, then you also have to give Russell 100% of the blame when we lose, and not just 100% of the credit when we win.

That's being dishonest in this discussion.

Pete's culture, style of coaching and the way he's rebuilt this organization from the ground up into the one of the most successful franchises in the entire league is also why Russell's going to be putting on a gold jacket one day.

So go ahead Russell, go to the Bears, Raiders or another team of your choosing and see how the other half lives. Because he'll find those other head coaches and coordinators aren't all that amazing either.

Why is "but to compartmentalize the Hawks success and give only Russell credit, and not the rest of the team or coaches, etc is something I can't agree with." not allowed or you cant agree with but you're giving PC credit for everything by himself is okay "Pete's culture, style of coaching and the way he's rebuilt this organization from the ground up into the one of the most successful franchises in the entire league is also why Russell's going to be putting on a gold jacket one day."

Really.

 

[chris98251]

The likely reality is that Wilson would win elsewhere without Carroll as his coach.
(Likely doing better in the playoffs.)

Carroll would likely not win without Wilson, certainly not on this team (maybe if we somehow got Minshew but without a QB that was effective AND elusive...slim chance).

As long as Wilson is the most important part of this team, and he is, what he wants is also the most important.

Back when Carroll was actually good at defense, he might have been more important. But those are past.

Carroll wins because he has Wilson. And so what Wilson wants, prefers, wishes, etc....matters most.

Because Wilson knows he can force his way out and without him Carroll would flounder.

Or he could be a Doug Flutie clone depending on Coaching.

Some guys disappear some emerge in a different environment.

 

[LTH]

The likely reality is that Wilson would win elsewhere without Carroll as his coach.
(Likely doing better in the playoffs.)

Carroll would likely not win without Wilson, certainly not on this team (maybe if we somehow got Minshew but without a QB that was effective AND elusive...slim chance).

As long as Wilson is the most important part of this team, and he is, what he wants is also the most important.

Back when Carroll was actually good at defense, he might have been more important. But those are past.

Carroll wins because he has Wilson. And so what Wilson wants, prefers, wishes, etc....matters most.

Because Wilson knows he can force his way out and without him Carroll would flounder.

Carroll wins because he has Wilson?

for a long time the D carries the O... and for a long time it was ML that carried the O..

But Pete Carroll and JS had the instincts to draft Wilson and they built this team for years.. so yeah Wilson has saved the Seahawks a number of times with pro bowl play... but it's not just about Wilson it never has been JUST about Wilson football is a team sport and so your point is misleading and quite frankly wrong. If Wilson left Carroll would find another way to make this team win because he is a dynamic coach and JS is a dynamic creative GM they work well together! They win because Carroll has built an incredible organization not just because of Wilson...


LTH

 

[SoulfishHawk]

And when has Wilson EVER said or even acted like it was just about him? Never. Total team guy. Every post game presser we have ever seen after a win, he spends the entire time talking up his teammates.
And if people can't see that he has saved this team from losing games his entire career career, with his 4th quarter and OT heroics, you never will. Period. They are great TOGETHER.

 

[John63]

The likely reality is that Wilson would win elsewhere without Carroll as his coach.
(Likely doing better in the playoffs.)

Carroll would likely not win without Wilson, certainly not on this team (maybe if we somehow got Minshew but without a QB that was effective AND elusive...slim chance).

As long as Wilson is the most important part of this team, and he is, what he wants is also the most important.

Back when Carroll was actually good at defense, he might have been more important. But those are past.

Carroll wins because he has Wilson. And so what Wilson wants, prefers, wishes, etc....matters most.

Because Wilson knows he can force his way out and without him Carroll would flounder.

Carroll wins because he has Wilson?

for a long time the D carries the O... and for a long time it was ML that carried the O..

But Pete Carroll and JS had the instincts to draft Wilson and they built this team for years.. so yeah Wilson has saved the Seahawks a number of times with pro bowl play... but it's not just about Wilson it never has been JUST about Wilson football is a team sport and so your point is misleading and quite frankly wrong. If Wilson left Carroll would find another way to make this team win because he is a dynamic coach and JS is a dynamic creative GM they work well together! They win because Carroll has built an incredible organization not just because of Wilson...


LTH

problem is you make it all about PC, so to you, it can be all about PC but no all about Wilson or anyone else. problem is it is not, lets remember PC is sub 500 in the NFl without Wilson. he is over 600 with Wilson. As to the defense and Ml really, PC with a top 5 defense and ML was 7-9. So not so simple. If you ask me you only point is to make sure everyone gets credit but Wilson. The reality is the QB makes the coach and you need to go no farther than NE and Miami for proof.

 

[LTH]

The likely reality is that Wilson would win elsewhere without Carroll as his coach.
(Likely doing better in the playoffs.)

Carroll would likely not win without Wilson, certainly not on this team (maybe if we somehow got Minshew but without a QB that was effective AND elusive...slim chance).

As long as Wilson is the most important part of this team, and he is, what he wants is also the most important.

Back when Carroll was actually good at defense, he might have been more important. But those are past.

Carroll wins because he has Wilson. And so what Wilson wants, prefers, wishes, etc....matters most.

Because Wilson knows he can force his way out and without him Carroll would flounder.

Carroll wins because he has Wilson?

for a long time the D carries the O... and for a long time it was ML that carried the O..

But Pete Carroll and JS had the instincts to draft Wilson and they built this team for years.. so yeah Wilson has saved the Seahawks a number of times with pro bowl play... but it's not just about Wilson it never has been JUST about Wilson football is a team sport and so your point is misleading and quite frankly wrong. If Wilson left Carroll would find another way to make this team win because he is a dynamic coach and JS is a dynamic creative GM they work well together! They win because Carroll has built an incredible organization not just because of Wilson...


LTH

problem is you make it all about PC, so to you, it can be all about PC but no all about Wilson or anyone else. problem is it is not, lets remember PC is sub 500 in the NFl without Wilson. he is over 600 with Wilson. As to the defense and Ml really, PC with a top 5 defense and ML was 7-9. So not so simple. If you ask me you only point is to make sure everyone gets credit but Wilson. The reality is the QB makes the coach and you need to go no farther than NE and Miami for proof.

Its not just about PC and I never indicated as much... Pete Carroll is the one who put it all together but he is a facilitator, that is where his strength is communication and his philosophy towards players bring everyone together and managing this team full of alfa males... Wilson is a piece of the puzzle just like Wagner and everybody else all the way down to the ball boy...Carrol is the one who created the current evolution of the Seahawks organization... If Pete Carroll left this organization and you inserted someone else they would not be able to make it function the way it does now they would have to start over completely... Pete Carroll is the one who holds it all together.. like him or hate him that's the truth...


LTH

 

[John63]

The likely reality is that Wilson would win elsewhere without Carroll as his coach.
(Likely doing better in the playoffs.)

Carroll would likely not win without Wilson, certainly not on this team (maybe if we somehow got Minshew but without a QB that was effective AND elusive...slim chance).

As long as Wilson is the most important part of this team, and he is, what he wants is also the most important.

Back when Carroll was actually good at defense, he might have been more important. But those are past.

Carroll wins because he has Wilson. And so what Wilson wants, prefers, wishes, etc....matters most.

Because Wilson knows he can force his way out and without him Carroll would flounder.

Carroll wins because he has Wilson?

for a long time the D carries the O... and for a long time it was ML that carried the O..

But Pete Carroll and JS had the instincts to draft Wilson and they built this team for years.. so yeah Wilson has saved the Seahawks a number of times with pro bowl play... but it's not just about Wilson it never has been JUST about Wilson football is a team sport and so your point is misleading and quite frankly wrong. If Wilson left Carroll would find another way to make this team win because he is a dynamic coach and JS is a dynamic creative GM they work well together! They win because Carroll has built an incredible organization not just because of Wilson...


LTH

problem is you make it all about PC, so to you, it can be all about PC but no all about Wilson or anyone else. problem is it is not, lets remember PC is sub 500 in the NFl without Wilson. he is over 600 with Wilson. As to the defense and Ml really, PC with a top 5 defense and ML was 7-9. So not so simple. If you ask me you only point is to make sure everyone gets credit but Wilson. The reality is the QB makes the coach and you need to go no farther than NE and Miami for proof.

Its not just about PC and I never indicated as much... Pete Carroll is the one who put it all together but he is a facilitator, that is where his strength is communication and his philosophy towards players bring everyone together and managing this team full of alfa males... Wilson is a piece of the puzzle just like Wagner and everybody else all the way down to the ball boy...Carrol is the one who created the current evolution of the Seahawks organization... If Pete Carroll left this organization and you inserted someone else they would not be able to make it function the way it does now they would have to start over completely... Pete Carroll is the one who holds it all together.. like him or hate him that's the truth...


LTH

your are right you did give some credit to JS as well however you said this "If Wilson left Carroll would find another way to make this team win because he is a dynamic coach and JS is a dynamic creative GM they work well together! " So if it woudl eb so easy for PC to make this teal great without Wilson how come he never could do it before? As top PC holding it all together you don't know that for all you know another coach would have done more. Aksi amazing your last post all about PC and nothing but PC really.


So let me guess this right " Wilson is a piece of the puzzle just like Wagner and everybody else all the way down to the ball boy...Carroll is the one who created the current evolution of the Seahawks organization." So like I said you are making it all about Carroll and yet sub 500 without Wilson over 600 with. You talk about PC like he is the NE Coach remind me how that went when he lost his QB? remind me how good the Tampa Coach looks now, compared to before Brady. The fact is a great QB is more important than a great coach.

 

[chris98251]

Carroll wins because he has Wilson?

for a long time the D carries the O... and for a long time it was ML that carried the O..

But Pete Carroll and JS had the instincts to draft Wilson and they built this team for years.. so yeah Wilson has saved the Seahawks a number of times with pro bowl play... but it's not just about Wilson it never has been JUST about Wilson football is a team sport and so your point is misleading and quite frankly wrong. If Wilson left Carroll would find another way to make this team win because he is a dynamic coach and JS is a dynamic creative GM they work well together! They win because Carroll has built an incredible organization not just because of Wilson...


LTH

problem is you make it all about PC, so to you, it can be all about PC but no all about Wilson or anyone else. problem is it is not, lets remember PC is sub 500 in the NFl without Wilson. he is over 600 with Wilson. As to the defense and Ml really, PC with a top 5 defense and ML was 7-9. So not so simple. If you ask me you only point is to make sure everyone gets credit but Wilson. The reality is the QB makes the coach and you need to go no farther than NE and Miami for proof.

Its not just about PC and I never indicated as much... Pete Carroll is the one who put it all together but he is a facilitator, that is where his strength is communication and his philosophy towards players bring everyone together and managing this team full of alfa males... Wilson is a piece of the puzzle just like Wagner and everybody else all the way down to the ball boy...Carrol is the one who created the current evolution of the Seahawks organization... If Pete Carroll left this organization and you inserted someone else they would not be able to make it function the way it does now they would have to start over completely... Pete Carroll is the one who holds it all together.. like him or hate him that's the truth...


LTH

your are right you did give some credit to JS as well however you said this "If Wilson left Carroll would find another way to make this team win because he is a dynamic coach and JS is a dynamic creative GM they work well together! " So if it woudl eb so easy for PC to make this teal great without Wilson how come he never could do it before? As top PC holding it all together you don't know that for all you know another coach would have done more. Aksi amazing your last post all about PC and nothing but PC really.


So let me guess this right " Wilson is a piece of the puzzle just like Wagner and everybody else all the way down to the ball boy...Carroll is the one who created the current evolution of the Seahawks organization." So like I said you are making it all about Carroll and yet sub 500 without Wilson over 600 with. You talk about PC like he is the NE Coach remind me how that went when he lost his QB? remind me how good the Tampa Coach looks now, compared to before Brady. The fact is a great QB is more important than a great coach.

Tell that to Dan Pastorini, Archie Manning, Jim Plunkett, Carson Palmer, Drew Bledsoe. The coach and system and how they are used is very important as well as talent assembled.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

While I would like to see a change at Head Coach, you can't argue with the success. They are better together.
Just my own opinion that Russ is a lot more a part of this team's success than Pete. Pete is here 'til he decides to leave imo, so I don't see a change at head coach for at least a couple more years.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Both LTH and Soulfish are right here.

Our success is absolutely the result of Carroll. No one can argue against that.

You could, however, argue that without Wilson Carroll never has close to the same success he had.

Still, Carroll made the decision to play Wilson. That started the entire engine.

And he got credit for that. Multiple times, this is why when you make one of the worst decisions in SB history - you don't get fired. And when you miss the playoffs entirely with one of the best QBs and a decent roster...you keep your job.

But at almost 8 years now, of not progressing at all, you have to acknowledge the other side.

Carroll found a process that works. It gets you to the playoffs. And he uses it. It also prevents you from being any kind of team to consider or take seriously in the playoffs because you aren't ever a realistic contender.

But this isn't about our opinion of Carroll. It is about whether the issue with Wilson will continue.

Obviously, it has to.

Since the SB loss, Carroll comes with both a floor and ceiling.

He will get you to the playoffs, almost regularly.

His ceiling is that he almost certainly won't win anything past the wildcard, if that. The problem is that Wilson likely is also aware of that ceiling.

And while Wilson probably appreciates the floor, he likely feels he does not need it. He likely thinks he can get other teams to the playoffs and he is almost certainly right. But he also might be frustrated with Carroll's ceiling that will affect Wilson's legacy too.

If that is the case, then yes, this will keep popping up until Wilson leaves.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Since the SB loss, Carroll comes with both a floor and ceiling.

He will get you to the playoffs, almost regularly.

His ceiling is that he almost certainly won't win anything past the wildcard, if that. The problem is that Wilson likely is also aware of that ceiling.

And while Wilson probably appreciates the floor, he likely feels he does not need it. He likely thinks he can get other teams to the playoffs and he is almost certainly right. But he also might be frustrated with Carroll's ceiling that will affect Wilson's legacy too.

If that is the case, then yes, this will keep popping up until Wilson leaves.

You guys are describing 31 of 32 teams, and now Belichick is finding out how life is without Brady.

Rodgers is on what, his 4th HC now, and is looking to get his own GM fired. So sure, Pete's stubborn with how he wants his team built and how the defense and offense is schemed and run, but the notion that some other head coach would get more out of Russell, or the grass is greener for Wilson somewhere else?

Nah, I can't buy that as some supreme certainty. Dude's an elite top 5 QB on his way to the Hall of Fame. Pete was and still is a major reason Russell's career has been so successful.