MacDonald riding with Geno

[RiverDog]

What about the Manning passing academy? Alot of famous QBs including Patrick Mahomes, Joe Burrow, Josh Allen and CJ Stroud attended the academy in which Peyton Manning is an active part of teaching QB mechanics and strategies. Even Andrew Luck himself attended it. I think thats pretty good mentoring.

Yeah, maybe. But I'm not sure if we're not talking apples and oranges. It's one thing to give canned instructions in front of a couple dozen participants and different thing when it's a one-on-one relationship with a person you're assigned to mentor.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's not a given that simply because a player is a good quarterback that it automatically follows that they'll be a good mentor.

 

[keasley45]

I think this is an area where things get a bit messy. What i'm saying is, how do we know the playcall was crap? Because it didn't work? Sure, there are playcalls that are questionable at best, but sometimes they fail due to the execution and sometimes that's the fault of the QB.

The same way MacDonald or any coach or coordinator says he has to look at the tape to see what happened on a given play before assigning blame.

Its not that big of a mystery and i would get flamed for it when Russ was here and i would post multiple sequential stills of a play to show how it unfolded and why thr play worked, but the execution failed. You can absolutely evaluate how well a QB is going through his progressions just as you can evaluate whether a playcall given a certain down and distance was a good one.
A good playcaller anticipates what a defense is going to do and provides the offense and more specifically the QB options to succeed. Lesser coordinators get caught in situations like Grubb was again and again where the QB was left on an island with protection that wasnt set, outlets that werent available and routes that relied on there being more time than what was reasonably available. Sure, that wasnt the case EVERY time, but if it wasnt the case the vast MAJORITY of the time, Grubb was would still have a job. There were so many times where you could see a defense was going to blitz on 3rd and say 4, and rather than having 1 or 2 options for Geno to hit quickly in the space the blitzung player was vacating, and chipping the rusher on the way in, we would just have receivers running medium and deep routes. That happened starting in the Giants game and never stopped.

Beyond playcalling, our blocking scheme as stupid. We got manhandled and looked horrible for most of the season trying to force our guys to run a constantly overmatched zone blocking scheme. Over the second half, we ran more gap concepts and saw more success. Thats a shift that should have been evident in training camp or at least early in the season. Instead we get plowed every week, struggling to run because we dont do it enough to force the defense to account for it, but also dont even deploy a scheme that best helps our personnell.

The failures of the offense this year were multiple fold from route designs that didnt challenge defenses or exploit weaknesses (its been discussed quite a bit that Grubb wasnt exoerienced in attacking NFL schemes and instead looked to exploit matchups) in the way they were playing us to just not giving the QB options to ATTACK a defense rsther than hoping protection holds up. Grubb neutered our passing game to a degree by taking DK out of the scheme as a decoy so that he could better work individual matchups. JSN was the beneficiary. Everybody else suffered. From the outside, it looks like JSN blew up, and he did have a good year, but he got those looks because thats how Grubb's offense worked. Attack a player or two or a coverage zone, but not the whole defense.
The run game was the same, trying to leverage individual strength rather than schematic advantage.
After week 4, when defenses saw what worked against us, we never adapted until our run game started working at the switch to more gap play in the run game.
These things are FUNDAMENTAL errors in the coordination of an offense and Grubb failed at them consistently.
Waldron understood at a general level how to attack scheme as was evident in the fact that our offense was one of the best in the league over the first quarter and a half of a game whike he was here. He could see schematic tendencies in a defense and script a way to attack them. He failed in the chess match that became that back and forth game of anticipation, move and counter move.
All-22 shines an entirely different light on games. What looks like one problem on a telecast is often shown to be something different.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

And why get so pissed off? We're just talking football. A good debate is fun, it's not personal, it's not some huge tragedy. People will always disagree on players, that will never change.
Nobody is required to agree with your take, just like nobody is required to agree with mine. This entire Geno subject has gotten way out of hand. And yes, I have been a part of it. But my god, lighten up a little at some point.

 

[toffee]

And why get so pissed off? We're just talking football. A good debate is fun, it's not personal, it's not some huge tragedy. People will always disagree on players, that will never change.
Nobody is required to agree with your take, just like nobody is required to agree with mine. This entire Geno subject has gotten way out of hand. And yes, I have been a part of it. But my god, lighten up a little at some point.

SoulFish and ole toffee may not agree on much, not even our cocktails, but we are agreeable on what we disagree

 

[SoulfishHawk]

You got that right, brother. Eff you.

Love you, man

 

[CallMeADawg]

Again chill with the tone. We’re all trying to be respectful here.

Again? What do you mean again?

 

[Ozzy]

Again? What do you mean again?

You can pm me if you want to get into it. I'm not going to go back and forth and argue and then the conversations get crappy in every other thread afterwards.

If I misunderstood you then apologies.

 

[keasley45]

It’s not 2022 though. The same argument you used against Stroud applies to Geno if you’re being consistent. No one had much tape on Geno in early 2022. He fell of a little in the second half of that year too.

That’s fine if you hold to that and assume with a bunch of changes he goes back to 2022. What I can’t understand is why you can’t fathom the other side of this debate where people are a little skeptical after this year and him getting older that he may not even with some changes. You may disagree. It history tells us it’s REASONABLE. Geno was 14th in 2023 in a much better year. Right where most people have him, middle of the pack. He don’t have a ton of touchdowns last year either. Why is your default that he’s a touchdown monster? In 13 years he’s been good at that ONCE

I’m not trying to be snarky but I think if you give the other side a little benefit of the doubt this debate would be easier for you to understand.

Why would him being closer to what he was last year be so ridiculous of a stance to hold? I don’t understand it dude.

Again, its not remotely the same as Stroud because Stroud fell off in multiple categories or was in the bottom 3rd of the league in stats that go beyond tds and ints to indicate how well a qb is playing.

Geno has not fallen off statistically in any of those categories EXCEPT explosive plays, deep balls and TDs. If you want to make the argument that opposing defenses have figured him out, why is he MORE accurate now than in 2022? He posted career bests in completion percentage, yards, accuracy and is still near the best throwers in completing difficult passes. Those stats would DECREASE if he was 'figured out' as Stroud to a degree has struggled through being this year.

So then you look at the OC who was just fired and compare just his scheme vs Waldrons. Grubb lived off of explosve plays. Its known. Its everything his offense was about. Defenses quite simply took that option away from him and forced him to work an aspect of his offense that he hadn't developed, let alone refined to deal with the realities of the NFL. And as a result, wr became a team who trailed the league in explosive plays when prior to, Geno Smith was top 5 and top 10 in deep ball passing. Did Geno get solved or was the offense deficient?
Same with taking care of the ball in the redzone. Prior to Grubb, Geno went 33TD and 2 INts in the redzone. With Grubb, 13Tds and 4 Ints. What about Genos prior outstanding TD ratio in the RZ, his accuracy, quick release of the ball and ability to complete difficult throws (all outstanding traits still in 2024) leads you to believe its Geno who is the issue with us not being able to score when we are inside the 20?

And as to his age, like i said before, he has thrown about the same number of career passes as Joe Burrow. His arm doesnt have the age of a typical 35 YO qb, so why would i apply typical logic and assume that a qb at his age is bound to start dropping off physically when his arm hasnt seen anywhere near the wear that a 13 year vet should. Nor has he taken the hits that a 13 year vet normally would. Geno, as vet qbs go, is an outlier. But instead of looking at him and saying - 'wow, the dude has shown he can be lead league leading in multiple categories when he has just an ok coordinator and ok running attack (2022) and that he is in an almost unattainable sweet spot where he his experience is peaking the way you'd assume a 13 year vet would, but his body is several seasons younger... lets see what he can do if we actually get him help...' , all their is from the 'other side' are chants of him being a bridge and no more. And to that, I agree to a degree because he is a 13 year vet and at some point wear and tear catch-up to you. But his shelf life is NOT that of a typical qb, so thinking he can play solid ball 3 years isnt at all crazy. This situation is just different.

You still never explain why you think he will be worse when he has NEVER had good protection. He has NEVER had a good coordinator. He has NEVER had a formidable running game to lean on. If he is STILL deadly accurate and can be league leading in completing passes, completing them under pressure, be one of the better players in least turnover worthy plays rate. Yes. One of the better players. Granted, this graphic is from around week 10, but Geno got better, not worse.



Why would he get worse or no better if all of those other areas improved? Especially since he WAS already better BEFORE the last coordinator, who was unceremoniously canned for sucking at his job.

Even Mac has come out and said one of the key traits he wants from the next OC is a guy who can help the QB play fast and smart. If you asked me after a breakup (i left her because it wasnt working) what i wanted in my next GF and i said 'someone who is in great shape and is worldly' if i had gone to great lengths to NOT talk badly about my ex, its pretty easy to read between the lines and infer that what i want now is not what i had before, and that i see that more clearly now. But thats not just seeing what you want to see with respect to Macs comments about Grubb. It is LITERALLY the area in which Grubb was most deficient in 2024 - understanding NFL defenses and adapting a gameplan that helped the qb play the game quickly, because he had options at his disposal to attack or overcome a defense. Geno had few tools - no running game, no deception in scheme, no designed achematic advantage, no reliable blocking. Thats ALL Grubb. Its not Geno.

Geno wasnt perfect. Geno made mistakes . Geno threw interceptions and took sacks. But it is beyond obvious that the offense wasnt going anywhere this year and that Grubb was one and done for how backwards the scheme was.

Fix the coordinator. Get a running game. Get better blocking. Geno will be better, not worse. He was already top 10ish with Waldron and Waldron cant even coordinate an offense.

 

[Titus Pullo]

Again, its not remotely the same as Stroud because Stroud fell off in multiple categories or was in the bottom 3rd of the league in stats that go beyond tds and ints to indicate how well a qb is playing.

Geno has not fallen off statistically in any of those categories EXCEPT explosive plays, deep balls and TDs. If you want to make the argument that opposing defenses have figured him out, why is he MORE accurate now than in 2022? He posted career bests in completion percentage, yards, accuracy and is still near the best throwers in completing difficult passes. Those stats would DECREASE if he was 'figured out' as Stroud to a degree has struggled through being this year.

So then you look at the OC who was just fired and compare just his scheme vs Waldrons. Grubb lived off of explosve plays. Its known. Its everything his offense was about. Defenses quite simply took that option away from him and forced him to work an aspect of his offense that he hadn't developed, let alone refined to deal with the realities of the NFL. And as a result, wr became a team who trailed the league in explosive plays when prior to, Geno Smith was top 5 and top 10 in deep ball passing. Did Geno get solved or was the offense deficient?
Same with taking care of the ball in the redzone. Prior to Grubb, Geno went 33TD and 2 INts in the redzone. With Grubb, 13Tds and 4 Ints. What about Genos prior outstanding TD ratio in the RZ, his accuracy, quick release of the ball and ability to complete difficult throws (all outstanding traits still in 2024) leads you to believe its Geno who is the issue with us not being able to score when we are inside the 20?

And as to his age, like i said before, he has thrown about the same number of career passes as Joe Burrow. His arm doesnt have the age of a typical 35 YO qb, so why would i apply typical logic and assume that a qb at his age is bound to start dropping off physically when his arm hasnt seen anywhere near the wear that a 13 year vet should. Nor has he taken the hits that a 13 year vet normally would. Geno, as vet qbs go, is an outlier. But instead of looking at him and saying - 'wow, the dude has shown he can be lead league leading in multiple categories when he has just an ok coordinator and ok running attack (2022) and that he is in an almost unattainable sweet spot where he his experience is peaking the way you'd assume a 13 year vet would, but his body is several seasons younger... lets see what he can do if we actually get him help...' , all their is from the 'other side' are chants of him being a bridge and no more. And to that, I agree to a degree because he is a 13 year vet and at some point wear and tear catch-up to you. But his shelf life is NOT that of a typical qb, so thinking he can play solid ball 3 years isnt at all crazy. This situation is just different.

You still never explain why you think he will be worse when he has NEVER had good protection. He has NEVER had a good coordinator. He has NEVER had a formidable running game to lean on. If he is STILL deadly accurate and can be league leading in completing passes, completing them under pressure, be one of the better players in least turnover worthy plays rate. Yes. One of the better players. Granted, this graphic is from around week 10, but Geno got better, not worse.

View attachment 69094

Why would he get worse or no better if all of those other areas improved? Especially since he WAS already better BEFORE the last coordinator, who was unceremoniously canned for sucking at his job.

Even Mac has come out and said one of the key traits he wants from the next OC is a guy who can help the QB play fast and smart. If you asked me after a breakup (i left her because it wasnt working) what i wanted in my next GF and i said 'someone who is in great shape and is worldly' if i had gone to great lengths to NOT talk badly about my ex, its pretty easy to read between the lines and infer that what i want now is not what i had before, and that i see that more clearly now. But thats not just seeing what you want to see with respect to Macs comments about Grubb. It is LITERALLY the area in which Grubb was most deficient in 2024 - understanding NFL defenses and adapting a gameplan that helped the qb play the game quickly, because he had options at his disposal to attack or overcome a defense. Geno had few tools - no running game, no deception in scheme, no designed achematic advantage, no reliable blocking. Thats ALL Grubb. Its not Geno.

Geno wasnt perfect. Geno made mistakes . Geno threw interceptions and took sacks. But it is beyond obvious that the offense wasnt going anywhere this year and that Grubb was one and done for how backwards the scheme was.

Fix the coordinator. Get a running game. Get better blocking. Geno will be better, not worse. He was already top 10ish with Waldron and Waldron cant even coordinate an offense.

Geno is not going to get better, but he will get older every year. Let it go, man.... He's old and gun shy.

BTW.... I would take Nix, Daniels, Goff, Burrow, Mayfield, Carr, Jackson, Maye, Stroud, Herbert over Geno any day of the week.

 

[strohmin]

Yeah, maybe. But I'm not sure if we're not talking apples and oranges. It's one thing to give canned instructions in front of a couple dozen participants and different thing when it's a one-on-one relationship with a person you're assigned to mentor.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's not a given that simply because a player is a good quarterback that it automatically follows that they'll be a good mentor.

Well then how is not being interested in coaching pretty good evidence that he wasn't a good mentor?

 

[Ozzy]

Again, its not remotely the same as Stroud because Stroud fell off in multiple categories or was in the bottom 3rd of the league in stats that go beyond tds and ints to indicate how well a qb is playing.

Geno has not fallen off statistically in any of those categories EXCEPT explosive plays, deep balls and TDs. If you want to make the argument that opposing defenses have figured him out, why is he MORE accurate now than in 2022? He posted career bests in completion percentage, yards, accuracy and is still near the best throwers in completing difficult passes. Those stats would DECREASE if he was 'figured out' as Stroud to a degree has struggled through being this year.

So then you look at the OC who was just fired and compare just his scheme vs Waldrons. Grubb lived off of explosve plays. Its known. Its everything his offense was about. Defenses quite simply took that option away from him and forced him to work an aspect of his offense that he hadn't developed, let alone refined to deal with the realities of the NFL. And as a result, wr became a team who trailed the league in explosive plays when prior to, Geno Smith was top 5 and top 10 in deep ball passing. Did Geno get solved or was the offense deficient?
Same with taking care of the ball in the redzone. Prior to Grubb, Geno went 33TD and 2 INts in the redzone. With Grubb, 13Tds and 4 Ints. What about Genos prior outstanding TD ratio in the RZ, his accuracy, quick release of the ball and ability to complete difficult throws (all outstanding traits still in 2024) leads you to believe its Geno who is the issue with us not being able to score when we are inside the 20?

And as to his age, like i said before, he has thrown about the same number of career passes as Joe Burrow. His arm doesnt have the age of a typical 35 YO qb, so why would i apply typical logic and assume that a qb at his age is bound to start dropping off physically when his arm hasnt seen anywhere near the wear that a 13 year vet should. Nor has he taken the hits that a 13 year vet normally would. Geno, as vet qbs go, is an outlier. But instead of looking at him and saying - 'wow, the dude has shown he can be lead league leading in multiple categories when he has just an ok coordinator and ok running attack (2022) and that he is in an almost unattainable sweet spot where he his experience is peaking the way you'd assume a 13 year vet would, but his body is several seasons younger... lets see what he can do if we actually get him help...' , all their is from the 'other side' are chants of him being a bridge and no more. And to that, I agree to a degree because he is a 13 year vet and at some point wear and tear catch-up to you. But his shelf life is NOT that of a typical qb, so thinking he can play solid ball 3 years isnt at all crazy. This situation is just different.

You still never explain why you think he will be worse when he has NEVER had good protection. He has NEVER had a good coordinator. He has NEVER had a formidable running game to lean on. If he is STILL deadly accurate and can be league leading in completing passes, completing them under pressure, be one of the better players in least turnover worthy plays rate. Yes. One of the better players. Granted, this graphic is from around week 10, but Geno got better, not worse.

View attachment 69094

Why would he get worse or no better if all of those other areas improved? Especially since he WAS already better BEFORE the last coordinator, who was unceremoniously canned for sucking at his job.

Even Mac has come out and said one of the key traits he wants from the next OC is a guy who can help the QB play fast and smart. If you asked me after a breakup (i left her because it wasnt working) what i wanted in my next GF and i said 'someone who is in great shape and is worldly' if i had gone to great lengths to NOT talk badly about my ex, its pretty easy to read between the lines and infer that what i want now is not what i had before, and that i see that more clearly now. But thats not just seeing what you want to see with respect to Macs comments about Grubb. It is LITERALLY the area in which Grubb was most deficient in 2024 - understanding NFL defenses and adapting a gameplan that helped the qb play the game quickly, because he had options at his disposal to attack or overcome a defense. Geno had few tools - no running game, no deception in scheme, no designed achematic advantage, no reliable blocking. Thats ALL Grubb. Its not Geno.

Geno wasnt perfect. Geno made mistakes . Geno threw interceptions and took sacks. But it is beyond obvious that the offense wasnt going anywhere this year and that Grubb was one and done for how backwards the scheme was.

Fix the coordinator. Get a running game. Get better blocking. Geno will be better, not worse. He was already top 10ish with Waldron and Waldron cant even coordinate an offense.

He’s partly more accurate because of his low ADOT. Grubb schemed a lot of short stuff to combat the running game.

I’m tired of arguing Geno’s greatness as you probably are too so let’s switch gears.

You said at the end fix the line, fix the running game and Geno will be much better. How long are you wanting to roll with Geno? I posted earlier but historically guys fall off right now. It doesn’t worry you at all to extend him when he’s going to be 35 here soon? How many guys at 37,38,39 are really good QB’s? Almost no one. He’s also entering his mid 30’s and has declined every year. That’s usually not a good sign that he will suddenly be much better as he gets older.

So what would be your plan? It seems like you think we need to build around him and he’s good for years. Would you draft someone now? Would you wait a couple years?

That’s where I’m at. Historically guys his age don’t suddenly get much better regardless of how we split up blame into their kid to late 30’s so I don’t feel comfort giving him a big raise which he has already said he deserves and wants

This conversation is going to get fascinating for the pro Geno crowd when he’s asking for 44-50 million and threatening a hold out.

 

[Ozzy]

Geno is not going to get better, but he will get older every year. Let it go, man.... He's old and gun shy.

BTW.... I would take Nix, Daniels, Goff, Burrow, Mayfield, Carr, Jackson, Maye, Stroud, Herbert over Geno any day of the week.

It’s funny some of the advanced stats to show Geno is near elite are ignored when you use them for other guys in his range like Carr, Baker, Darnold etc

 

[SoulfishHawk]

THAT guy holding out......hilarious.

 

[Maelstrom787]

It’s funny some of the advanced stats to show Geno is near elite are ignored when you use them for other guys in his range like Carr, Baker, Darnold etc

There's something interesting to point out though....

All of those guys either had better protection or a better under center run game to protect them, and thats the best argument I can see supporting the fact that Geno CAN improve if given support.

 

[Ozzy]

There's something interesting to point out though....

All of those guys either had better protection or a better under center run game to protect them, and thats the best argument I can see supporting the fact that Geno CAN improve if given support.

It’s completely a fair point. I don’t think they did him many favors.

In theory he should improve with a better running game, line, more play action, under center work etc. I’m just worried his age is going to compound his limitations like it does for most players. If he stays and it’s probably leaning that way. I hope they fix those things and I don’t think it’s impossible to do so. I’m excited to see what happens.

 

[keasley45]

He’s partly more accurate because of his low ADOT. Grubb schemed a lot of short stuff to combat the running game.

I’m tired of arguing Geno’s greatness as you probably are too so let’s switch gears.

You said at the end fix the line, fix the running game and Geno will be much better. How long are you wanting to roll with Geno? I posted earlier but historically guys fall off right now. It doesn’t worry you at all to extend him when he’s going to be 35 here soon? How many guys at 37,38,39 are really good QB’s? Almost no one. He’s also entering his mid 30’s and has declined every year. That’s usually not a good sign that he will suddenly be much better as he gets older.

So what would be your plan? It seems like you think we need to build around him and he’s good for years. Would you draft someone now? Would you wait a couple years?

That’s where I’m at. Historically guys his age don’t suddenly get much better regardless of how we split up blame into their kid to late 30’s so I don’t feel comfort giving him a big raise which he has already said he deserves and wants

This conversation is going to get fascinating for the pro Geno crowd when he’s asking for 44-50 million and threatening a hold out.

Sure. But i feel like i am more fighting a battle to argue Geno's good enoughness, not his greatness. Since you brought up him feasting on short stuff, its not entirely wrong, but its not like he was ineffective elsewhere.



Geno overall is 4th. The only place here dipped was in the 10-19 yard area. Will look up the same data for 2023.

Geno Smith led the NFL in big time throw rate again in 2023

Seahawks general manager John Schneider definitely has a type at the quarterback position.

seahawkswire.usatoday.com

As to your question, the article above captures much of how i feel. Its from before this season but i dont see much in terms of who Geno is and what he is capable of that changes my position.

You keep saying he is declining. I just literally do not understand how you factor the fact that for 3 years we have had the
30th, 31st and 28th ranked ground game, we gave had the 29th, 27th and 26th ranked o line, and 2 offensive coordinators who have been fired. Is that not a signuficant contributing factor to a qb not playing at the highest level possible? I mean, shoukdnt that be a reason a QB might not even be a starter anymore?

I think i have answered your question before, but the rational is burried in everything we have been debating. If you see him declining, and dont attribute enough of the disastrous reality swirling around him to see otherwise, then you are where you are on it, i guess.

I have been watching football for a long time and I sincerely cannot think of a comparable situation where a team has been so bad on offense around the QB, to include the OC and fired FO for three years running where a QB has performed as well as Geno has regardless in so many areas.

The only QB in the league that has shown he can function in a comoarable situation is Joe Burrow...just THIS season.

But i would extend Geno for 3 years with the ability to get out in 2. I'd roll his cap hit across those years to free up cash this year to fortify the lines and look to find a qb in mid to later rounds in each of the next 3 drafts. I woukd actually make it a point to pick a guy every year because your best chance at hitting on a Brock Purdy is habing more bites at the apple.

But i dont see the logic in moving on from him and getting... who? Dan Jones? Kirk Cousins? Justin Fields ?? Or then being stuck with Sam Howell who i doubt can run the passing game at even 75% of what Geno can. Doubt it? Look at his int highlight reel. Doing that is literally wasting the potential of this roster on a sub par QB that you are hoping can do 'ok'.

And i dont see the value in going out and signing a Sam Darnold or again, who? And paying him maybe 7 or 8 mil less than Geno when he has proven incapable of succeeding in the high pressure situation that Geno has proven to be good at. And thats not my opinion, Geno has been one of the best QBs under pressure across the last 3 years.

Geno has functioned admirably in a sh!+ situation, and that is just NOT debatable. If you diamsagree, again, find someone else who has had the line, run game and failed coordinators for 3 straight years.

That conclusion is the same one Matt Hasselbeck has expressed, Mark Schlereth, Daniel Jeremiah, Brock... you name it. They all pretty much say that given the talent on this team and what Geno has done with no help that the best way forward is to find a way to run it back with Geno.

 

[Ozzy]

I’ve always said Geno is good in most areas. He’s really accurate. I just think he makes mistakes in the most critical areas of the field and because he can’t move well he’s really limited in the red zone. Both can be true and for me it is. They’re a lot of things to hang your hat on in favor of Geno. Where we split is his weak areas are glaring.

 

[keasley45]

It’s completely a fair point. I don’t think they did him many favors.

In theory he should improve with a better running game, line, more play action, under center work etc. I’m just worried his age is going to compound his limitations like it does for most players. If he stays and it’s probably leaning that way. I hope they fix those things and I don’t think it’s impossible to do so. I’m excited to see what happens.

OK, but how many qbs who were good enough to finish top 4 in completion percentage and lead the league in accuracy fall apart in one season?

Drew Brees, Manning, Brady, Rodgers... these guys had elite protection, elite playcallers, and top offenses overall and you could gradually see evidence of their decline. Arm strength diminished, accuracy dropped off, mobility slowed. And it showed over seasons.

Geno hasnt shown any of that yet. So the way i see it the likelihood of him falling off of a cliff in 2025 is slim. Will he be top Geno in 2026? Maybe not, but he would also more likely show decline, nit failure. So that puts us in 2027. If he is still dealing then, great. If not, you get out of the deal. Happens all the time.

If Denver can eat 80 mil, pay their fired QB to play for anither team and take the remnants of what was a nice roster to the playoffs, we will be fine paying Geno guaranteed money that likely wont ever tip even half of what Denver had to eat.

Play him and pay him for how good he is for as long as he is that good.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

He's already regressing though. Stats don't truly show how much. Couldn't care less about how he is between the 20's. Or comeback wins against crap to average teams. Fingers crossed that he finally can not only win some playoff games, but beat elite teams.
If his decision making, along with his unwillingness to run (when he clearly can) doesn't improve, this will continue to be a 9 or 10 win team.
I hope team Geno is right, because I just don't see him magically becoming some elite QB who can win big games.

 

[SeaWolv]

And others don’t because of data that backs that up as well. Your stance isn’t any more objective or reasonable than the other side, that’s the point.

I’ve always said Geno is unique case because some data is very good and some data is flat out bad.

This is true, there are good and bad offensive stats. Some that can simplistically point to questionable QB play. However when you look at underlying contributors it can paint a completely different picture. Like interceptions. Most of the time people look at a high number of interceptions and see only bad QB play. However when you look further you may find that line play didn't provide adequate protection, receivers didn't run proper routes or play call was bad.

In the case of Geno and this endless debate we've seemed to have over and over for last 2 years, some of us believe that Geno is not to blame for most of it and the others believe he is.

The truth is probable somewhere in the middle and it may even be somewhat equal combinations of QB, OC and OL issues. Geno does try to play hero ball (8 picks), the OLine isn't giving Geno enough time (highest pressure rate) and as Keasley pointed out the play call was bad at times.

The rest of the argument is what degree for each? 33/33/33? 20/40/40? 40/20/40? At this point the conversation breaks down into arguments over semantics.

Let's fix the OC and OL part and see if things get better.