Jon Baldwin vs Legion of Boom

[Manbearpig99]

The secondaries are far from close.

Although the Seahawks secondary is better than the Niners secondary, I don't think the difference is very dramatic. Stats back this up.

Edit: Stats actually say the Niners have a better secondary, although I would rather have the Seahawks secondary.

LOL

LOL

 

[Marvin49]

The secondaries are far from close.

Although the Seahawks secondary is better than the Niners secondary, I don't think the difference is very dramatic. Stats back this up.

Edit: Stats actually say the Niners have a better secondary, although I would rather have the Seahawks secondary.

Its really not close. The stats on the 49ers secondary include the pass rush from the best front 7 in the NFL. When the Smiths got hurt, that secondary was badly exposed.

While I like Terrell Brown as a CB who doesn't get his just due, there is no member of the 49er starting secondary or even the nickel back that I would take over his Seattle counterpart.

 

[pinksheets]

Damn, 49er fan schools homer 49er fan who took the bait. I didn't expect that.

 

[Marvin49]

Damn, 49er fan schools homer 49er fan who took the bait. I didn't expect that.

Not trying to school anyone. Just tryin' to be truthful.

 

[rideaducati]

Meanwhile Kearse and Williams look awesome.

It would suck to be a Niner fan and see the Seahawks developing Kearse and grabbing Williams from waivers while they can't find a suitable receiver even in the 1st round of the draft.

Our #5 (6 if you count Harvin) receiver would be their walk on #2 and by a large margin. Not much different than our secondary for that matter.

Don't think I will ever understand the pundits that try and sell the Niners as the deepest roster in the league. That team is in desperation mode in more than one position and have huge question marks on depth all over the field if they lose any starters they are likely done for.

Not a chance I would trade our WR/TE for your WR/TE. I think we(Niners) have what they call a pair and a spare at pretty much every position. Your secondary is better, however our front 7 is much better than yours(it's not even close).

wow. Seattle wouldn't offer the trade because they aren't dumb. That trade would DECIMATE the Seahawks and make the niners EXPONENTIALLY better. "The guy" Baalke wanted in the draft and took in the FIRST ROUND was just traded for garbage from another team and you think your team's wr corps is better than Seattle's...whatever.. I see you casually threw in the TE position thinking that that would make a HUGE difference, but it doesn't. The niner front office would JUMP on that trade faster than Jim Harbaugh can throw a tantrum.

A "pair" of wr on the PUP list with a "spare" from KC? Call it what you want, but nobody would call it good.

 

[Manbearpig99]

The secondaries are far from close.

Although the Seahawks secondary is better than the Niners secondary, I don't think the difference is very dramatic. Stats back this up.

Edit: Stats actually say the Niners have a better secondary, although I would rather have the Seahawks secondary.

Its really not close. The stats on the 49ers secondary include the pass rush from the best front 7 in the NFL. When the Smiths got hurt, that secondary was badly exposed.

While I like Terrell Brown as a CB who doesn't get his just due, there is no member of the 49er starting secondary or even the nickel back that I would take over his Seattle counterpart.

Marvin: I didn't want to respond to your posts, I think it is idiotic for fans of other teams to argue back and forth here. With that being said, I would take the Niners front 7 and the Seahawks secondary every day of the week and twice on Sundays. However, I wouldn't trade our front 7 for their secondary. Our secondary will out perform Seattle's this year. Mostly because of your front 7.

 

[Manbearpig99]

Meanwhile Kearse and Williams look awesome.

It would suck to be a Niner fan and see the Seahawks developing Kearse and grabbing Williams from waivers while they can't find a suitable receiver even in the 1st round of the draft.

Our #5 (6 if you count Harvin) receiver would be their walk on #2 and by a large margin. Not much different than our secondary for that matter.

Don't think I will ever understand the pundits that try and sell the Niners as the deepest roster in the league. That team is in desperation mode in more than one position and have huge question marks on depth all over the field if they lose any starters they are likely done for.

Not a chance I would trade our WR/TE for your WR/TE. I think we(Niners) have what they call a pair and a spare at pretty much every position. Your secondary is better, however our front 7 is much better than yours(it's not even close).

wow. Seattle wouldn't offer the trade because they aren't dumb. That trade would DECIMATE the Seahawks and make the niners EXPONENTIALLY better. "The guy" Baalke wanted in the draft and took in the FIRST ROUND was just traded for garbage from another team and you think your team's wr corps is better than Seattle's...whatever.. I see you casually threw in the TE position thinking that that would make a HUGE difference, but it doesn't. The niner front office would JUMP on that trade faster than Jim Harbaugh can throw a tantrum.

A "pair" of wr on the PUP list with a "spare" from KC? Call it what you want, but nobody would call it good.

You really think that the Niners would trade their WR/TE core for yours? Come on man. That wouldn't ever happen. We are all homers here, but your assertions are ridiculous.

 

[Marvin49]

Although the Seahawks secondary is better than the Niners secondary, I don't think the difference is very dramatic. Stats back this up.

Edit: Stats actually say the Niners have a better secondary, although I would rather have the Seahawks secondary.

Its really not close. The stats on the 49ers secondary include the pass rush from the best front 7 in the NFL. When the Smiths got hurt, that secondary was badly exposed.

While I like Terrell Brown as a CB who doesn't get his just due, there is no member of the 49er starting secondary or even the nickel back that I would take over his Seattle counterpart.

Marvin: I didn't want to respond to your posts, I think it is idiotic for fans of other teams to argue back and forth here. With that being said, I would take the Niners front 7 and the Seahawks secondary every day of the week and twice on Sundays. However, I wouldn't trade our front 7 for their secondary. Our secondary will out perform Seattle's this year. Mostly because of your front 7.

I wouldn't trade it for our front 7 either.

Just sayin the 49ers have some work to do in their secondary so I wouldn't say its close at all.

I'm not gonna say it outperforms their secondary. That's a tall order and Seattle improved their own pass rush. I'm not tryin ta argue with ya...just giving my honest opinion.

 

[Blitzhawk]

:snack:

Especially love the part about 'I didn't post reply because I think its dumb to argue on opposing teams forum but I am right and you are wrong' comment. Continue, please.... :stirthepot:

 

[Sarlacc83]

Not a chance I would trade our WR/TE for your WR/TE. I think we(Niners) have what they call a pair and a spare at pretty much every position. Your secondary is better, however our front 7 is much better than yours(it's not even close).

wow. Seattle wouldn't offer the trade because they aren't dumb. That trade would DECIMATE the Seahawks and make the niners EXPONENTIALLY better. "The guy" Baalke wanted in the draft and took in the FIRST ROUND was just traded for garbage from another team and you think your team's wr corps is better than Seattle's...whatever.. I see you casually threw in the TE position thinking that that would make a HUGE difference, but it doesn't. The niner front office would JUMP on that trade faster than Jim Harbaugh can throw a tantrum.

A "pair" of wr on the PUP list with a "spare" from KC? Call it what you want, but nobody would call it good.

You really think that the Niners would trade their WR/TE core for yours? Come on man. That wouldn't ever happen. We are all homers here, but your assertions are ridiculous.

They wouldn't trade Vernon Davis/Michael Crabtree for Zach Miller/Sidney Rice or Golden Tate. But you can sure as hell bet they'd trade Crabtree/Kyle Williams for Percy Harvin/Sidney Rice or Golden Tate, and this board would SLAUGHTER our front office for making that trade.

 

[RichNhansom]

That front seven you are so proud of is bolstered by a 34 year old who significantly improves the play of both your DE's and your LB's. When Justin Smith declines that front seven will become very average.

As for trading, the idea is dumb but if anyone (not a homer fan) was building a team and was choosing between either our receiver core or secondary over your, the Seahawks win that debate by an absolute landslide and probably unanimously on both fronts.

 

[RolandDeschain]

Random thought: It's hard to chart the performance of a secondary with pen and paper. You absolutely HAVE to know how good the LBers and D-linemen are at everything, particularly generating pressure, in order to know how good a secondary is.

I'm pretty sure if we got regular pressure and sacks like SF's defense did, our secondary would be considered the greatest of all time. Look at the # of pressures and sacks we got last year. 36 sacks, tied for 18th in the league, and I can't find a list of defenses that includes pressures, which is annoying me; but we rarely had games where we generated REGULAR pressure. Realistically, our sacks are bottom quarter of the league because that 8-sack half against Green Bay was a huge anomaly. Make that 2 instead of 8, and we drop to tied for 25th in the league for sacks.

When you consider that we finished with the #1 scoring defense in the league, (the one defensive statistic that matters more than any other 3 defensive stats combined) it's really rather incredible. Pressuring the passer is hugely important, and we were able to dominate without doing that. If we can do it this year...Watch out. Potentially historic defense.

 

[Marvin49]

That front seven you are so proud of is bolstered by a 34 year old who significantly improves the play of both your DE's and your LB's. When Justin Smith declines that front seven will become very average.

As for trading, the idea is dumb but if anyone (not a homer fan) was building a team and was choosing between either our receiver core or secondary over your, the Seahawks win that debate by an absolute landslide and probably unanimously on both fronts.

Sigh...yes, the ever popular "Justin Smith is you're entire defense" argument.

Justin is a great player, but lets be real...Justin had THREE sacks last year. THREE. He has NEVER had a double digit sack year. Did the 49ers feel his loss last year? Of course they did. The letdown tho had alot to do with the ineptitude of the guy who replaced him (RJF). Lets not make out like all of the sudden the rest of the front 7 are just average players and Superman is the only reason they are any good.

Aldon Smith is great, despite what anyone here wants to argue. The notion that all of his production is a result of Justin Smith is a myth and it's ludicrous. Aldon himself was hurt and he never stopped getting pressure after Justin was hurt. Ask Tom Brady. Aldon had Wilson in his sites and then Wilson did his Houdini thing and prevented the sack. Aldon pressured Rodgers and Ryan as well. People who attribute all of Aldons success to Justin really don't watch the games. If they did they would see Aldon absolutely abuse tackles from either side of the formation.

Patrick Willis may be the best ILB in the game. Navorro Bowman may be the second best ILB in the game. Ahmad Brooks is a very good OLB. Ray McDonald is a very good and underrated DE.

The thought that this D is suddenly going to suck when Justin finally retires is just more wishful thinking. The 49ers have already resigned him to an extension and have started looking for his replacement (first step was drafting Tank Carradine). No matter how much you want it to be true, the 49ers aren't going anywhere.

 

[Marvin49]

Random thought: It's hard to chart the performance of a secondary with pen and paper. You absolutely HAVE to know how good the LBers and D-linemen are at everything, particularly generating pressure, in order to know how good a secondary is.

I'm pretty sure if we got regular pressure and sacks like SF's defense did, our secondary would be considered the greatest of all time. Look at the # of pressures and sacks we got last year. 36 sacks, tied for 18th in the league, and I can't find a list of defenses that includes pressures, which is annoying me; but we rarely had games where we generated REGULAR pressure. Realistically, our sacks are bottom quarter of the league because that 8-sack half against Green Bay was a huge anomaly. Make that 2 instead of 8, and we drop to tied for 25th in the league for sacks.

When you consider that we finished with the #1 scoring defense in the league, (the one defensive statistic that matters more than any other 3 defensive stats combined) it's really rather incredible. Pressuring the passer is hugely important, and we were able to dominate without doing that. If we can do it this year...Watch out. Potentially historic defense.

I wouldn't go so far as to say best ever, but best in the league by alot.

It works both ways...Secondary improves front 7, front 7 improves secondary. If you combined the 49ers Front 7 with the Seattle secondary it really wouldn't be fair. LOL.

 

[Popeyejones]

I don't think either the 9ers or the Hawks are particularly strong at WR, but the Hawks are better.

QB: Push (although I personally looooooove Wilson's play, we'll know after this season)
RB: Hawks
OL: 9ers
TE: 9ers
WR: Hawks

DL - 9ers
OLB - 9ers
ILB - 9ers
CB - Hawks
S - Hawks

Edit: and of any position group in terms of disparity, I think the Hawks secondary >>>> the 9ers secondary, right up there and maybe even above 9ers OLine >>>> Hawks OLine

 

[RolandDeschain]

It works both ways...Secondary improves front 7, front 7 improves secondary. If you combined the 49ers Front 7 with the Seattle secondary it really wouldn't be fair. LOL.

Yeah, but the front 7 improves the secondary WAY more than the other way around.

You're completely correct about your front 7 (though I'd probably stick Wagner on your LB corps) with our secondary being unfair, though. That would just be ridiculously suffocating. Man, it'd be entertaining to watch.

 

[hawker84]

Sigh...yes, the ever popular "Justin Smith is you're entire defense" argument.

not taking anything away from Aldon, he's a damn good player, your linebackers are top notch no doubt, but you cannot dispute the drop in productivity when J smith went down. Your Sack production disappeared, the lack of pressure up front completely exposed your secondary, who was very good against the run, and can deliver a blow, but there coverage was attrocious..

J smith may not be the center of your defensive universe, but man it sure looked like it when he was injured and out .. As far as Aldons production dropping then, i'm sure some of it had to do with the injury, but you can't deny J smith being in there and double teamed, free'd him up a lot more, not to mention j smith's little hook move?

again nothing against Aldon, but without J smith in there, that defense went from elite to pretty good, and that's saying a lot.

 

[Marvin49]

Sigh...yes, the ever popular "Justin Smith is you're entire defense" argument.

not taking anything away from Aldon, he's a damn good player, your linebackers are top notch no doubt, but you cannot dispute the drop in productivity when J smith went down. Your Sack production disappeared, the lack of pressure up front completely exposed your secondary, who was very good against the run, and can deliver a blow, but there coverage was attrocious..

J smith may not be the center of your defensive universe, but man it sure looked like it when he was injured and out .. As far as Aldons production dropping then, i'm sure some of it had to do with the injury, but you can't deny J smith being in there and double teamed, free'd him up a lot more, not to mention j smith's little hook move?

again nothing against Aldon, but without J smith in there, that defense went from elite to pretty good, and that's saying a lot.

I'm not trying to completely discount Justins absense as a reason the D fell off. Hell, I've been making the exact opposite point on this site for months.

The poster I was responding to tho said: "that front 7 will become very average" when Justin declines. Thats just BS. The pass rush took a hit because Justin AND Aldon were hurt and as you said defenses just double and triple teamed Aldon (and he was STILL getting pressure). Aldons drop in production also had to do with the QBs he was playing late last year.....Brady, Wilson, Rodgers, and Ryan to name a few. OF COURSE Justin had SOMETHING to do with Aldons production. That can be said of almost ANY player. Is Von Miller as productive without Dumerville? We'll find out. The attidude always seems to be tho that Justin MADE Aldon and that Aldon is a fraud. Justin has played for a long time with alot of different players and NONE of them have ever approached what Aldon has done here in 2 short years.

The big issue in regards to Justin tho is how ENORMOUS the drop off was from Justin to RJF. RJF scared exactly nobody so teams were allowed to roll protection to Aldons side and not have to pay for it. The Niners are aware of this and is a big reason for the drafting of Tank Carradine. I'm sure he is just the first of several players they will draft/aquire to eventually compete to fill Justins role. The nice thing tho is that I think Justin is going to be fine for a few more years. He's in great shape and his game isn't based on speed. He's a power player who works hard.

 

[Popeyejones]

I think the thing that always gets left out is Aldon's own injury (he had shoulder surgery in the offseason and was held from practice that whole time), which mattered as much if not more than Justin being out.

I looked at one point, and IIRC his sack + qb hit + qb hurry rate was also pretty consistent across the year (it dipped a little bit, which can be explained by Justin being out and his injury), so we might just be obsessing over random noise to some degree (he got many "more" sacks than he reasonably should have through the first two thirds of the season, and many "less" sacks than he should have through the last third just based on random chance alone, before even introducing the variables of his injury or Justin being out).

 

[RolandDeschain]

Popeye, the problem is that Aldon got that injury a couple games before Justin got injured, and was still performing well up until Justin left.