John Clayton = official GOOFBALL mode

[BirdsCommaAngry]

Haha, there's no way to win with rankings.

If we're talking about a team with bad pass protection, Big Ben could be ranked higher than Peyton Manning solely because he might actually survive a season on such a team. If we're talking about a rebuilding team, pretty much all the young franchise QBs would be better than Brady, Manning, etc. If we're talking rings, Eli is better than Peyton and Flacco is "elite" as well! If we're including player salaries, RW is basically the demigod of QBs with his considerably less-outrageous rookie third rounder contract when compared to the 20+ million dollar contracts of other talented QBs (oh, and Flacco), but even this depends entirely upon how that extra cash is used and thus, how good or bad a team's GM is. If you're connecting the dots, that means QBs can't be properly ranked until the leagues' GMs are also accurately ranked, and since how good or bad a GM is depends so much on how good or bad their QB is....

This sort of thing is just simplified and too subjective or too complicated for people to touch in way that won't result in never ending arguments, splitting hairs, and simply a whole lot of wasted time. Just walk away and go play with your dog!

 

[Anthony!]

If you have to justify why Russell Wilson isn't putting up all these passing yards to make a case for him then your arguement is weak to begin with. I love Russell Wilson as much as the next fan, but if I was putting a list together of the best QBs of right now, and not future, I doubt he'd crack the top 10 much less top 5. Serious bias by fans wearing Seahawk colored glasses can only do that. Outside of this forum the only people looking goofy is those saying Wilson is top 5.

The sensitivity to reporters and perceived slights they give this team has completely gone overboard this off season.

And yet other than Yards he is top 10 in everything, tds, td/int ratio, qb rating, YPA. Seems you might want to look at more than just yards, last I checked that was only 1 data point. I would put him 5th the facts and stats say that is about right.

 

[themunn]

Joe Montana never passed for 4000 yards in a season once in his career.
Dan Marino did it 6 times. Hell Marino had nearly as many completions as Montana had attempts. He threw nearly twice as many TDs as Montana (but nearly twice as many interceptions too).

So which one would you rather have in your team? Next to Marino, Montana looks like a "game manager"

 

[acbass]

I've never understood why everyone ranks quarterbacks pretty much in respect to "fantasy ability." When I think of the top QB's you have to look at the totality of the circumstances. Arm strength, accuracy, decision making, mobility, etc. It's more than just putting up numbers. If you throw the ball 50 times a game you are going to put up numbers. Does that make you "better" than a guy who only throws it 25 times a game? To me, the answer is no. That's just the system you are in. I fully believe if he had to that Russell could put up those 400 yard games. I know he could. Look at the playoff loss against the Falcons. They got down and had to throw the ball. If I remember correctly Russell had VERY good numbers. The fact is, this team hasn't lost a game by more than 7 points since Russ took over the team. Why would you need to throw it so much when you can do other things to keep the opposing team off balance? I just don't understand why they all think a lack of balance and high numbers equate to a good quarterback.

 

[MadSweeney]

I've never understood why everyone ranks quarterbacks pretty much in respect to "fantasy ability." When I think of the top QB's you have to look at the totality of the circumstances. Arm strength, accuracy, decision making, mobility, etc. It's more than just putting up numbers. If you throw the ball 50 times a game you are going to put up numbers. Does that make you "better" than a guy who only throws it 25 times a game? To me, the answer is no. That's just the system you are in. I fully believe if he had to that Russell could put up those 400 yard games. I know he could. Look at the playoff loss against the Falcons. They got down and had to throw the ball. If I remember correctly Russell had VERY good numbers. The fact is, this team hasn't lost a game by more than 7 points since Russ took over the team. Why would you need to throw it so much when you can do other things to keep the opposing team off balance? I just don't understand why they all think a lack of balance and high numbers equate to a good quarterback.

This is part of the reason why you can't make a statement like Russ is elite yet. He's got a historic defense on the other side of the ball that is more responsible for the close losses (esp the ATL game) than Russ is. It's stayed remarkably healthy overall, with depth balancing out injuries. The O on the other hand hasn't been. There haven't been many games where Russ carried the team and until he does so for an extended period then I don't think you can label him in the elite category that consists of QBs who have done so. If I were asked whether or not he was elite, i'd answer not yet or incomplete. If I were to rank him, I'd put him a little higher than Clayton, but not by much. He will be, there's no doubt in my mind and very few QBs have shown his leadership at such an early stage in their careers. There's no one else I'd rather have as our QB, period. He just has more road to cover before his sample size makes him elite. And like you, I'm not counting FF stats as a measure of greatness nor diminishing his body of work so far, but all the QBs I have as elite have carried their team and he hasn't had the opportunity to do so.

Besides, we should want pundits and fans to think of him as not quite elite until after he signs an extension next offseason. I want to pay the man, both in retrospect for his excellent production his first 3 years (not unlike Shaun Alexander's big contract) but also for the years to come (very much unlike SA) which by that time he should be considered among the league's elite.

 

[plyka]

Those that are taking offense of Clayton,etc.'s ranking, and then giving their own ranking, do you guys watch all or most of the games of the other QB's your ranking ahead/behind of Wilson? Not a real fair assessment if you're goona watch all 16 games Wilson has played in a season and only 2-3 games of all the other QB's or only watch them when they play the Hawks with the best defense in the league.

Wilson is a franchise QB to me, personally don't care to much about rankings, but if you do, it makes the most sense to try and be as fair as possible to get a ranking that's not incredibly off base.

But that's the point. If seahawks fans are only watching 3 game of stafford, how many games do you think Chadia or other national media are watching of Wilson? Believe me, not that many. No one can watch 32 teams 16 games per year. This is one reason why they are so wrong regarding Wilson.

The truth is yards are not meaningless, but they are just one stat in a hundred. Things like QB rating are averages, they attempt to take all stats into consideration. And even they are not full proof. But the idea that you'll throw away an aggregate in support of only one of its ingredients like yards is a tell tale sign that you're attempting manipulate.

 

[acbass]

I've never understood why everyone ranks quarterbacks pretty much in respect to "fantasy ability." When I think of the top QB's you have to look at the totality of the circumstances. Arm strength, accuracy, decision making, mobility, etc. It's more than just putting up numbers. If you throw the ball 50 times a game you are going to put up numbers. Does that make you "better" than a guy who only throws it 25 times a game? To me, the answer is no. That's just the system you are in. I fully believe if he had to that Russell could put up those 400 yard games. I know he could. Look at the playoff loss against the Falcons. They got down and had to throw the ball. If I remember correctly Russell had VERY good numbers. The fact is, this team hasn't lost a game by more than 7 points since Russ took over the team. Why would you need to throw it so much when you can do other things to keep the opposing team off balance? I just don't understand why they all think a lack of balance and high numbers equate to a good quarterback.

This is part of the reason why you can't make a statement like Russ is elite yet. He's got a historic defense on the other side of the ball that is more responsible for the close losses (esp the ATL game) than Russ is. It's stayed remarkably healthy overall, with depth balancing out injuries. The O on the other hand hasn't been. There haven't been many games where Russ carried the team and until he does so for an extended period then I don't think you can label him in the elite category that consists of QBs who have done so. If I were asked whether or not he was elite, i'd answer not yet or incomplete. If I were to rank him, I'd put him a little higher than Clayton, but not by much. He will be, there's no doubt in my mind and very few QBs have shown his leadership at such an early stage in their careers. There's no one else I'd rather have as our QB, period. He just has more road to cover before his sample size makes him elite. And like you, I'm not counting FF stats as a measure of greatness nor diminishing his body of work so far, but all the QBs I have as elite have carried their team and he hasn't had the opportunity to do so.

Besides, we should want pundits and fans to think of him as not quite elite until after he signs an extension next offseason. I want to pay the man, both in retrospect for his excellent production his first 3 years (not unlike Shaun Alexander's big contract) but also for the years to come (very much unlike SA) which by that time he should be considered among the league's elite.

I certainly see your point and I do agree for the most part. The team around a quarterback is important, but it's completely twisted to use how they want it. Look at Dan Marino. To me, he was one of the best QB's to ever step on the field. He's always viewed as one of the best, but what's the one argument you always hear? "Well, he doesn't have the rings that the others' do." On the other side of that, guys get punished for having too good of a team. Terry Bradshaw is a perfect example of that. The guy won 4 rings but you will never hear him put into that elite category. The argument always is "Well, he has the rings, but the team around him was so good." It's like, what do you want? I don't know what elite is. I don't care how good you are if you have no one around you. That's why I look at things like decision making, arm strength, etc. To really judge a quarterback you have to watch a lot of film on him to really get the picture. There are 32 teams and these pundits only have so much time on their hands. I understand they may not be up to speed on him. Ultimately in deciding this, I went through and looked at all 32 quarterbacks. I thought, "If you replaced Russell Wilson with this guy, what would be the likely result?" I then did the opposite and thought "What if you replaced this guy with Russell Wilson in his current situation." Honestly, there are only a handful of guys I would even consider swapping out. The number is about the same for the the QB's he wouldn't be upgrade over on their own team. I realize that I have obviously watched a TON more of Wilson than I have these other guys and that's why this is my opinion. I don't know exactly what the definition and criteria of "elite" are, but under what I explained, I would say that he is. I understand other people are going to have different definitions of elite, but it's like my grandfather used to say, "You can have your own opinion. I don't mind you being wrong." Haha. It's just so subjective and impossible.

 

[Sports Hernia]

If you have to justify why Russell Wilson isn't putting up all these passing yards to make a case for him then your arguement is weak to begin with. I love Russell Wilson as much as the next fan, but if I was putting a list together of the best QBs of right now, and not future, I doubt he'd crack the top 10 much less top 5. Serious bias by fans wearing Seahawk colored glasses can only do that. Outside of this forum the only people looking goofy is those saying Wilson is top 5.

The sensitivity to reporters and perceived slights they give this team has completely gone overboard this off season.

I agree with the sensitivity part, these are just some national idiot spouting an opinion who cares. But..... I believe you are falling in love with the fantasy football stats..... There is a reason that all world fantasy players like Tony Romo only have one playoff win, and it's just not inept Dallas ownership/FO.

 

[Sports Hernia]

If you have to justify why Russell Wilson isn't putting up all these passing yards to make a case for him then your arguement is weak to begin with. I love Russell Wilson as much as the next fan, but if I was putting a list together of the best QBs of right now, and not future, I doubt he'd crack the top 10 much less top 5. Serious bias by fans wearing Seahawk colored glasses can only do that. Outside of this forum the only people looking goofy is those saying Wilson is top 5.

The sensitivity to reporters and perceived slights they give this team has completely gone overboard this off season.

Since when do yards matter above all else..im being serious. He was 16th in the nfl in yards yet he had more TDs than 7 QBS ahead of him and he was tied with another one. I thought the point was to score not put up yards. Those QBs apart from Newton also threw 150 more passes than Wilson did. That would come out to about 6 games more of throws if you go by Wilsons avg ammount of throws per game yet they STILL scored less than he did.

I guess if we were to judge QBs by just Yards Eli Manning would be better than Wilson was this year because he had 3800 yards, lets just forget about the 27 interceptions he threw with his 18 TDS for a 69.4 rating. He had more yards than Wilson so he MUST be better.

Or Luck, the Media Darling that can do no wrong. He had 3822 yards too so he must be automatically better. With 163 more attempts he scored 3 less TDs than Wilson did and didnt even break 90 QB rating.

Can anyone explain to me how Wilson has a seemingly low yardage total, low attempts total...YET....he is the 2nd ALL TIME for TDs in his first 2 years. That means given his opportunites he scores probably better than almost any other QB in NFL history. And SCORING should be the #1/#2 stat along there with Turnovers.

Mannings first two years he had 52 Passing TDs just like Wilson but he did it on 1108 attempts. Wilson did it with 800 attempts. So it took Manning 308 more attempts to do what Wilson did his first 2 years.

Luck has 1197 attempts so far in 2 seasons and only 46 passing TDs. So 6 less TDs on 397 more attempts. Very impressive. That is basically an entire season of attempts more than Wilson.

I dont care if Wilson gets called elite but the two things that you can and SHOULD call him are a WINNER and EFFICIENT

Post of the month right there^

Well stated! :th2thumbs:

 

[Sports Hernia]

The existence and prevalence of the old boys' NFL "braintrust" is the single best weapon in the PC/JS arsenal. May it thrive in its cesspool of murky ignorance. For two seasons, RW has ignored the absence of an offensive line, challenged by injury, inexperience and talent deficit. He has ignored the injuries to his wide receivers. There are 3 QB's in the league that could have got the same results in the circumstances the last two years. And they'd be the quick release veterans all going to the HoF. Stafford? He'd be in a wheelchair today. And young neckbeard would be icing his backside 40 hours a week watching his interception film.

Another money post! Yep, let "the conventional thinking" prevail among the "brain trust" in the NFL, and let John and Pete lead Super Bowl parades annually on a cold February afternoon! :th2thumbs:
"Conventional wisdom" said that Russell Wilson would never be a starting QB in the NFL, much less lead his team to a Super Bowl championship.

Let the doubters and haters in the national media insist on being wrong, they'll just keep looking like the fools they are!

 

[theENGLISHseahawk]

As someone else noted earlier, the old boys act within the NFL is a great advantage for the Seahawks.

It's full of old duffer's who only know how to do things one way. This is what a QB looks like. This is what your WR needs to be able to do. This is what a pass rusher does. No room for outside of the box thinking. These are the same people that fill Greg Cosell's head with buzz words that he can use on the radio. One great big pals act of outdated group think.

This group, who also seem to have John Clayton's ear, constitute passing success as passing yardage. Wilson will never get the props he deserves until he's essentially 'the Seahawks'. Which is ridiculous. But it won't change until the NFL is dominated by guys like Pete Carroll and his coaching tree.

Let the league rank Wilson at #15 among QB's. Let them laugh at the comparisons to Andrew Luck. It's frickin awesome. Because while ever the league is full of these people, the Seahawks will keep on winning.

 

[Rainger]

The fact is that these guys who rank only look at one thing. YARDS. This last sat. when Clayton was on this topic all he could do over and over again was say that RW was not elite because he had not passed for 4000 yards.

He even said that when he passes for 4000 yards he will be elite. (how stupid and short sided is that) It is just such a stupid argument that it doesn't need to be debated.

So many QB's throw 3 yards and the receiver runs for 50 and a TD the QB gets the yards and the TD added to his stats. The whole thing is bullshit. So many losing QBS get 4000 yards cause they are always behind and throwing 50 times.

Or their defense is a sieve or they have no running game so all they can do is throw. This last year Manning threw against the weakest schedule in the league and piled up the most offense off all time but it was all smoke and mirrors. The numbers meant nothing.

For Clayton and others to down grade RW because he is not behind throwing 50 times and not getting 4000 yards merely shows how stupid they all are with their group think.

Forget the word elite. RW is one of the best QB's in the league and all the debates and rankings wont change that.