Its not Russ, its not Pete, It wasnt Schotty or Bevell...

[keasley45]

It's Pete. He is the skipper of this ship, if he doesn't like what's going on he changes it. Someone steps out of line, they're gone. He has more power than any other coach in the NFL. Belichick has just as much power, but Pete has the advantage of no ownership accountability. Pete is pretty much the owner of the Seahawks as it pertains to football operations.

No one can tell him "No."

Ok then. Cool. Problem solved. So let's either strip him of his totalitarian authority, or just fire him.

S.O.

Problem not solved, that's Fade's point.

It is Pete, so you can spin this however you want but this is Pete's team, every nook and cranny of the organization from top to bottom is exactly in Pete's control.

There is no solution, other than hope the stars align and we can get lucky and win another SB despite Pete's meddling in his plain vanilla predictable offensive philosophies with whoever the next yes man O-coordinator he hires is.

Use whatever circular logic you want to, it's Pete.

I was being sarcastic.

And i dont believe its a matter of luck as to whether we succeed again or not.

Thats the whole point of this thread. I just dont subscribe to the theory that its this persons fault, so if we just get rid of them, its fixed, r that the whole situation is hopeless because Pete, Russ or whoever the OC is isnt goiing anywhere or has little accountability.

Folks say we got too conservative and ran too much over the 2ns half, when facts show we wtill past more than we have in the past, but less effectively

People say that the o-line needs to be blown up, but in reality they performed better than avg.

There are words and theories and there are facts.

For those who think Pete is ruling with an iron glove and just wants what he wants, this past year, pete was praising the performance of Russ and Schotty, until the wheels came off. And btw, the wheels came off BEFORE Pete said anything about running more. He was responding to failure and attributing that faiklure to the fact that we werent running the ball well, and that the evidence showed that given Russ's performance, the defenses we were facing, that trying force a pass game that was floundering without a ground game, was dumb. And given what we can obviously see on tape, smart.

To me, its also entirely logical. Not a power grab. His assessment is that given what Russ is showing, pushing a stronger rushing attack is the way to go. And given the fact that defenses lacked respect for our running game (and the odds of Russ burning them with underneath passes) enough to basically stay in cover 2 week after week, how can you argue that?

And, he is the head coach.

But we also cant pin it on Russ entiirely, because as much as we can get on him for the evidence that we saw week in and week out on tape of him missing read after read, we cant say for certain that Schotty did the best job of identifying what Russ was struggling with and getting plays in that worked, not just for the game, but of his QB. Its already been made clear that while we left a ton on the field in terms of plays that might have worked, we also, inexplicably didnt move the pocket well to protect Russ, call enough screens, or quick passes. Why EXACTLY? you dont know. i dont know, we dont know. The tape shows what it shows and thats a passing game that was floundering EVEN when the plays were there to be had. But Schotty certainly wasnt running Pete Carrols offense or calling plays that Pete sent in.

Personally, if its my team and i'm giving the reigns to an OC and QB to get the team to success and they keep advocating for a pass game thats not wrking when it should, you try to fix it. And like i said, the stats dont lie, we still threw more on 1st down in the last 8 weeks of the season than we did on average in seasons past. So the narrative that Pete torpedoed the season because he pushed some ultra conservative plan and the team suffered because of it simply has no factual basis.

Its a product of the engrained Pete v Russ v Coordinator narrative that's been here for years and lazily and inaccurately attributed to every failure the team has. From the evidence that exists, not speculation, but facts, the strategy to run more is 100% logical when assessing the performance of the team under RW and Schotty this season.

 

[keasley45]

I don't agree necessarily that it's 'not Pete' because we have problems from a game management standpoint that are beyond whether our offense doesn't adjust, adjusts poorly, or whatever. So, on that alone, Pete doesn't deserve a pass. (I never thought he should get one on that stuff, even when we were going to back-to-back Super Bowls, but that definitely buys you breathing room.)

I agree, though, that our offensive failures in the second half of the season were a group effort.

Russell clearly kept trying to 'find' the 50 yard read even when there was no 50-yard play to be found. This has always been a part of his nature, which fine, to some degree. I want my QB to want to take shots. My all-time favorite 'Hawk (Hasselbeck) liked to take some dangerous shots downfield. And Russell probably has the best arm/deep ball in the league, so any offensive scheme that doesn't give him those shots is by nature suspect. But you take a preference, turn it into a habit, and then throw in the MVP convo when it seemed like Wilson turned it into a crutch to try and get himself on SportsCenter and you have a real problem.

Pete clearly got involved in changing an offense in mid-season. He admitted it. You have an offense that was setting the league on fire, you hit a snag with Russell's performance in a couple of games, and you go and undermine your OC. That's not going to help. Pete doesn't really have an offensive acumen to speak-of (outside of if we ram the ball down the throats of the other team and don't turn it over, we should be close enough for Russ to hero-ball us out of whatever deficit we have in the 4th quarter... which, unfortunately, only serves to reinforce Russell's hero-ball habits), so him trying to take-over the offense to run Pete ball hurt the team. Add on when he decides to try and take over play calls mid-game (which seems to NEVER work and only leads to penalties) and his obvious penchant for running out the clock on ourselves and it's no wonder our O has trouble finding a rhythm.

As for Schottenheimer... it's hard to know what exactly is his problem vs. Pete, but our unimaginativeness and inability to adapt to what Ds are doing during the game has to be on him to some degree. Additionally, I think our play calling on the rushing side of the ball is unbelievably unimaginative. We need to be more flexible in our formations. We need more strong rushing formations and we need to be willing to rush and pass out of those formations and not line up in shotgun trips for essentially everything we do.

Yeah. For sure, Pete has some mind boggling clock management. It's beyond frustrating and along with his misguided challenges is enough to drive yiu crazy and cost us games for the time ours we burn and general lack of confidence it might generate from players. That needs fixing.

I don't however know how much or to what extent he meddles in play to play calls or even selecting plays week to week. Folks are leaning on the 4th and 1 debacle last week as evidence that he is way too involved. Given what I know now, post schottenheimer and how that game was unfolding, I think it was a case of him no longer having trust in his OC or in Russ to deliver on the down, especially given that the offense was sputtering all day. Pete just wanted to kick the ball and we all know what happened to the OC after.Frankly, if it was Mr in his position, given the complete turd the offense laid over the course of the game, I wouldn't have even entertained thr conversation. You could make the case he was bring too nice.

As to his involvement thr rest of the season? I think he for sure said to take fewer risks. But go back and wstch the film and you will see that the risk he was likely referring to weren't relative to the plays themselves, but the decisions made by russel to take an unnecessary risk OR him not being able to read disguised coverages or bail outs. The change in the 2nd half of the season came as a result of poor execution. The offense was simply stinking it up. Russ was not decisive, and the gameolan wasn't helping to improve that week over week.

 

[OrangeGravy]

Sure there are some physical limitations, but I've also seen Russ work the entire field efficiently before. This season, I think it is more mental. If you listen to Russ' interviews, he's always talking about GAP plays - or game altering plays. It seems to me he is insistent on these big plays to change the outcome of a game.

This is a reason why he does not dink and dunk or take what the defense allows. Perhaps it is not "game-altering" enough. Russ is a hero baller by nature.

He has worked the entire field before. I'd like to how many times/games over his career you could say that though? Our struggles on offense with the exception of the first part of this season and the season we had zero run game, have been pretty consistent over the last 5/6 years. Something more than just the OC is off. It's impossible to make an educated guess without being inside that building unfortunately.

 

[keasley45]

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2020/12/12/2 ... ghts-video

Not sure if folks have seen this or not but it says a lot. The whole video is worth watching but it's honestly frustrating. I spent some time last night watching coach's tape of some of our losses and you realize quickly that we should have been 14-2 this year. The first rams loss. Ok. Division opponent. Tough. The bills game... we were just flat. But the cards and the giants games we flat gave away. Missed plays, missed reads and unnecessary, unprovoked turnovers.

If yiu don't have the patience to watch the whole thing, FF to the 6:30 mark.

 

[keasley45]

This is why Pete wants to run more.

 

[keasley45]

Also valid criticism of Schotty at the 8:15 mark.

This whole game was just a fail. Completely forgot PCs decision to punt when we were on the Giants 37.

 

[Own The West]

For all you saying it's Pete's fault, you're right. It's Pete's fault we're a perennial playoff team.

Now, if you want to focus on the offense, teams started playing 2-high safeties against us mid-season to take away our deep game. We didn't adapt, and Russ' numbers and our scoring took a nose dive.

Now I know Russ loves to throw the ball. I remember a certain super bowl when we were up 10 points in the 3rd quarter, Lynch was gashing a tired Wilfork and Co, but for some reason were started throwing the ball like we were down 10 and stopping the clock. Come to find out afterward Russ had talked his coaches into "staying aggressive" and throwing the ball.

I bring this up because Pete Carroll has won more football games than you, me, Russ and Schotty combined. When he says he wants to run, I believe him. And I believe it makes us a better team (you can't play 2-deep safeties if you're getting the ball run down your throat, and TOP helps any defense). Tom Brady has won 6 super bowls playing dink a dunk underneath until the defense gets tired and then gets a YAC TD, and they call him the GOAT. That's not arm talent, that's smart. We can be like that too.

So yeah, if Russ and Schotty want to go deep every play, then Schotty can do it elsewhere and Russ can hand it off 30 times a game. It's Pete's fault, and it's Pete's fault we'll return to the super bowl too.

 

[Fade]

It's Pete. He is the skipper of this ship, if he doesn't like what's going on he changes it. Someone steps out of line, they're gone. He has more power than any other coach in the NFL. Belichick has just as much power, but Pete has the advantage of no ownership accountability. Pete is pretty much the owner of the Seahawks as it pertains to football operations.

No one can tell him "No."

No one can tell him "NO", really? I think that's nonsense.

Who has the authority to tell Pete "No"?

 

[AROS]

I don't agree necessarily that it's 'not Pete' because we have problems from a game management standpoint that are beyond whether our offense doesn't adjust, adjusts poorly, or whatever. So, on that alone, Pete doesn't deserve a pass. (I never thought he should get one on that stuff, even when we were going to back-to-back Super Bowls, but that definitely buys you breathing room.)

I agree, though, that our offensive failures in the second half of the season were a group effort.

Russell clearly kept trying to 'find' the 50 yard read even when there was no 50-yard play to be found. This has always been a part of his nature, which fine, to some degree. I want my QB to want to take shots. My all-time favorite 'Hawk (Hasselbeck) liked to take some dangerous shots downfield. And Russell probably has the best arm/deep ball in the league, so any offensive scheme that doesn't give him those shots is by nature suspect. But you take a preference, turn it into a habit, and then throw in the MVP convo when it seemed like Wilson turned it into a crutch to try and get himself on SportsCenter and you have a real problem.

Pete clearly got involved in changing an offense in mid-season. He admitted it. You have an offense that was setting the league on fire, you hit a snag with Russell's performance in a couple of games, and you go and undermine your OC. That's not going to help. Pete doesn't really have an offensive acumen to speak-of (outside of if we ram the ball down the throats of the other team and don't turn it over, we should be close enough for Russ to hero-ball us out of whatever deficit we have in the 4th quarter... which, unfortunately, only serves to reinforce Russell's hero-ball habits), so him trying to take-over the offense to run Pete ball hurt the team. Add on when he decides to try and take over play calls mid-game (which seems to NEVER work and only leads to penalties) and his obvious penchant for running out the clock on ourselves and it's no wonder our O has trouble finding a rhythm.

As for Schottenheimer... it's hard to know what exactly is his problem vs. Pete, but our unimaginativeness and inability to adapt to what Ds are doing during the game has to be on him to some degree. Additionally, I think our play calling on the rushing side of the ball is unbelievably unimaginative. We need to be more flexible in our formations. We need more strong rushing formations and we need to be willing to rush and pass out of those formations and not line up in shotgun trips for essentially everything we do.

What an astute post. I see you are new here (at least in post count). I look forward to reading more of your thoughts.

 

[jammerhawk]

I very much agree with the above and think save for my comments above that this thread recognizes the 'blame' can be well shared around amongst many. The team does have a management council and you can be sure that before Pete was given the renewal until 2025 his record, the trends, and health of the team were considered before he was renewed. If the wheels fall off the Allen Family Trust can tie a can on Pete's tail w/o much difficulty. It's not as if the they would be in any way challenged by financial considerations.

Of course the buck stops with Pete but it's more than that. The video on Wilson above certainly shows something missing in usually good reads of D's and a disturbing situational inaccuracy during the 2nd half of the season. The reality of an inability to have a dominant running attack and zero 100 yard/game rushers all season is concerning when supposedly running was to be a focus. Early the D was weak, tackled poorly and got little pressure on the opposing QB and games were shoot outs with the last team with the ball type winners. Wilson is good at that type of football and excelled despite an atrocious D. Pete is in charge of the whole team as HC but he doesn't call the D's played or the offensive plays called and it is nonsense to think he could be that intensively involved in any specific part of the game. However, he does have the ability to disagree and I suppose this is where the Pete is superman Coach theories derive from. He's panned for being loyal and wanting yes men when he parts philosophically with a coach. He is to have all the blame and never can do anything right. An assessment of the team's record since he's been here certainly shows his direction has been beneficial to the performance of my team which struggled to ever be much more than 9-7 in a good year, and often sucked terribly. I have numerous concerns about the team going forward and hated the loss to the Rams but the team lost to the #1 D in football and looked unable to adjust offensively to a D they had beaten before. Once again they tackled poorly and their inability to stuff the Rams running game or rub Goff cost them the game. It was the O that smelled the worst as it looked toothless and we know it had weapons and lots of talented guys but couldn't much.

I agree completely with the premise of the thread that there is lots of blame to be shared around and it is simplistic to blame any single one of Pete, Schotty, Norton, RW, or (you pick). The team lost and perhaps the change that was needed was made. We'll see. Playing the blame game however is navel gazing w/o much constructive benefit. Good for discussion but not truly helpful in terms of a resolution of the issues.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Sometimes you are what you are.

Pete makes this team look better than it is.

With the roster Pete creates, builds, and develops? The weaknesses and predilections that Pete has can be overcome or addressed. This team could do amazing things if Pete did not push his guaranteed to fail philosophy on this team in the playoffs.

But

Pete does not change or adjust. So it is easy to get frustrated with him. This is solvable but it won't be. So of course we vent.

Pete is just like Marty Schottenheimer in terms of getting whatever team he helms to the playoffs. He might not win much there but he WILL get you there.

However, Pete also makes the team better. Replacing Pete makes you worse. Not sure how we have not clearly seen how Pete can just regularly turn low draft picks into studs. Sure all coaches do this, but Pete does this REGULARLY.

Pete's coaching holds the team back. But it is a team that is only that great because of him. That greatness leaves when he does.

So we have to be realistic. This is as good as this team will be. Pete comes with a high floor, but also a low ceiling. It could be worse.

We will have some good regular season games, we will get to the playoffs regularly, and at the 3/4 mark we always look like SB darkhorses. That is it. That is the upside and downside.

Wanting Pete gone is crazy unless you think someone else can make Wilson great enough to carry a team through the playoffs. Not sure he has shown he can do that.

We are a 6-8 win team that gets 10 wins under Pete. But in the playoffs, we play just like a 6-8 win team. Not much of a surprise anymore.

 

[kf3339]

It's Pete. He is the skipper of this ship, if he doesn't like what's going on he changes it. Someone steps out of line, they're gone. He has more power than any other coach in the NFL. Belichick has just as much power, but Pete has the advantage of no ownership accountability. Pete is pretty much the owner of the Seahawks as it pertains to football operations.

No one can tell him "No."

No one can tell him "NO", really? I think that's nonsense.

Who has the authority to tell Pete "No"?

The only person who has the authority to tell Pete no, is the owner. Oh wait, we have no owner. Just an estate administer who happens to be Paul Allen's sister. And by now everyone should realize she has no clue what is going on.

So the statement by Fade that "No one can tell him "No" is indeed accurate.

 

[Tokadub]

This was a super long original post... I'm gonna try to read it completely after I eat dinner...

But what I saw from skimming over it... I agree Brees is an infinitely better pocket passer than Wilson...

If Wilson could throw like Brees over the middle maybe we would be playing tomorrow... I think that's fair...

Receivers were wide open in our Wild Card game vs the Rams... Wilson declined in this game, one of worst performances of his career.

I'm not even sure how I feel about Schotty getting fired... I thought he was way better than Bevell... at a certain point we need to hold Wilson accountable to hit wide open reads?

 

[IndyHawk]

For all you saying it's Pete's fault, you're right. It's Pete's fault we're a perennial playoff team.

Now, if you want to focus on the offense, teams started playing 2-high safeties against us mid-season to take away our deep game. We didn't adapt, and Russ' numbers and our scoring took a nose dive.

Now I know Russ loves to throw the ball. I remember a certain super bowl when we were up 10 points in the 3rd quarter, Lynch was gashing a tired Wilfork and Co, but for some reason were started throwing the ball like we were down 10 and stopping the clock. Come to find out afterward Russ had talked his coaches into "staying aggressive" and throwing the ball.

I bring this up because Pete Carroll has won more football games than you, me, Russ and Schotty combined. When he says he wants to run, I believe him. And I believe it makes us a better team (you can't play 2-deep safeties if you're getting the ball run down your throat, and TOP helps any defense). Tom Brady has won 6 super bowls playing dink a dunk underneath until the defense gets tired and then gets a YAC TD, and they call him the GOAT. That's not arm talent, that's smart. We can be like that too.

So yeah, if Russ and Schotty want to go deep every play, then Schotty can do it elsewhere and Russ can hand it off 30 times a game. It's Pete's fault, and it's Pete's fault we'll return to the super bowl too.

Good post.. :2thumbs:

 

[ducks41468]

It's both Pete and Russ. Culture and mindset ultimately start from the top, as they do in every organization, and over the years we have developed a culture of arrogance, unwillingness to adjust, and lack of preparation. The insistence on the big plays also comes from the top, and is implemented, poorly, by the offense.

Russ's struggles and his lack of development over the years are a byproduct the culture. There isn't much accountability and there's no real push to broaden his skillset as a QB, especially when a glorified intern like Austin Davis is the QB coach. What's the Seahawks' culture? We're a fun team to play for. That said, there's nothing about the team culture that suggests that we're a technical, detail-oriented team, like the Saints, Packers, or Brady's Pats. And as such, Russ continues to miss receivers and then gives non-answers in his press conferences and goes back to his 20 other hobbies.

 

[DomeHawk]

We need a superior offensive line to deal with RW's abilities. Everyone laments the lack of a short and quick passing game but that requires a short drop. Plays well to Tom Brady's 6'5" not so much with RW's 5'10". That's why Brady can pick you apart all game long.

It's the same old story, go out and get a good, not average, offensive line.

 

[RolandDeschain]

We need a superior offensive line to deal with RW's abilities. Everyone laments the lack of a short and quick passing game but that requires a short drop. Plays well to Tom Brady's 6'5" not so much with RW's 5'10". That's why Brady can pick you apart all game long.

It's the same old story, go out and get a good, not average, offensive line.

There's a little fella who has had a killer short passing game for like 15 years now by the name of Drew Brees. You may have heard of him. Not to point out the huge, glaring, Mars-sized hole in your theory that Wilson's height means he can't be a good short-range passer.

 

[John63]

We need a superior offensive line to deal with RW's abilities. Everyone laments the lack of a short and quick passing game but that requires a short drop. Plays well to Tom Brady's 6'5" not so much with RW's 5'10". That's why Brady can pick you apart all game long.

It's the same old story, go out and get a good, not average, offensive line.

There's a little fella who has had a killer short passing game for like 15 years now by the name of Drew Brees. You may have heard of him. Not to point out the huge, glaring, Mars-sized hole in your theory that Wilson's height means he can't be a good short-range passer.

Not to mention he has done it before.

 

[DomeHawk]

We need a superior offensive line to deal with RW's abilities. Everyone laments the lack of a short and quick passing game but that requires a short drop. Plays well to Tom Brady's 6'5" not so much with RW's 5'10". That's why Brady can pick you apart all game long.

It's the same old story, go out and get a good, not average, offensive line.

There's a little fella who has had a killer short passing game for like 15 years now by the name of Drew Brees. You may have heard of him. Not to point out the huge, glaring, Mars-sized hole in your theory that Wilson's height means he can't be a good short-range passer.

Drew Brees is a little taller and has had much better O-lines. RW can be effective in the short passing game with a good O-line, not with what we have had for the last four years. But rarely do you see Russ throw the quick hitch unless it's to the unimpeded horizontal pass. Mostly from the shot-gun or deep drops and roll outs. Brady can do it under center, stand up and throw. He draws you in and then hits downfield, he's made a career out of it. How effective is it? His record speaks for itself and now that he's left NE they have a losing record and his new team is in the NFCCG. No brainer.

Like most Seahawks' fans I love RW and he's definitely a top-5 QB but for gawd's sake, get him a line.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

We need a superior offensive line to deal with RW's abilities. Everyone laments the lack of a short and quick passing game but that requires a short drop. Plays well to Tom Brady's 6'5" not so much with RW's 5'10". That's why Brady can pick you apart all game long.

It's the same old story, go out and get a good, not average, offensive line.

There's a little fella who has had a killer short passing game for like 15 years now by the name of Drew Brees. You may have heard of him. Not to point out the huge, glaring, Mars-sized hole in your theory that Wilson's height means he can't be a good short-range passer.

Drew Brees is a little taller and has had much better O-lines. RW can be effective in the short passing game with a good O-line, not with what we have had for the last four years. But rarely do you see Russ throw the quick hitch unless it's to the unimpeded horizontal pass. Mostly from the shot-gun or deep drops and roll outs. Brady can do it under center, stand up and throw. He draws you in and then hits downfield, he's made a career out of it. How effective is it? His record speaks for itself and now that he's left NE they have a losing record and his new team is in the NFCCG. No brainer.

Like most Seahawks' fans I love RW and he's definitely a top-5 QB but for gawd's sake, get him a line.

Our O-line ranked 16th in pass pro this year, so not great, but also not terrible.

I think it's short sighted to think that's Russell's problem when it comes to his deficiencies.......which are getting the ball out on time, and more importantly throwing it to the correct receiver after reading the defense.

Russell's accurate, throws a great ball, but that is a problem of his. So maybe a better pass pro line would help, but IMO it wouldn't result in helping him look more like a polished Brees, Brady or Rodgers type of QB that are masters at reading defenses and getting the ball out on time with quick precision and accuracy.

Russell needs a coordinator and offensive scheme that maximizes his vision, which is getting him out in space where he can confidently go through his progressions.

No contest for me for which coordinator could do that, it's Doug Peterson. He's a mastermind at the short misdirection RPO passing game that would maximize Russell's attributes. Rhythm, tempo, space.

But Pete would never hire an experienced veteran coordinator like Peterson that'd want autonomy.