Geno looked crazy good tonight

[Maelstrom787]

Hey do that for Kyler Murray too from the same game. After him, do Mason Rudolph using the Seahawk game as an example for an entire season. Rudolph might have been the best QB to ever play the game.

You see 16-28 for 189 yards as a great performance. I don't.

Look at how much this guy doesn't care about stats. He cares about stats so little that he can find a way to frame objectively good quarterback performances (that led to wins) as bad because the volume stats weren't good enough for him.

The point of the extrapolation is not to say "wow, single games stretched out over a whole season are the best way to judge quarterbacks!" That's dumb. Making conclusions on small sample sizes is foolish, which is why the Steelers point you've been harping on is nonsense.

The point of taking those single games and extrapolating them into full seasons is to illustrate the fact that the stats you're framing as poor are not as poor as you're trying to portray them as. They're simple tools to illustrate what a season of those games would look like, because what you're framing as horrible is actually pretty friggin' typical, if not downright good.

He used to care about scoring stats. When Geno scored more in this game, he pivoted to Geno's yardage not being good enough despite the YPA being pretty typical of the quarterbacks he's comparing Geno negatively to.

He used to care about wins. Geno and the Seahawks won, so now the wins don't matter when the yards aren't good enough.

I trust that most who are following this thread can see through the act by this point.

And, yet again, you ignore context.

You ignore defensive performance. You're pining for Kyler Murray's stats despite the fact that he scored half the points Geno did. You're pining for Kyler Murray's stats that were achieved with the support of a running attack that Seattle AGAIN could not stop, as they let James Connor run for 150 on 27 carries.

 

[Maelstrom787]

If Geno Smith is the quarterback for a loss, he sucks because he didn't win.

If Geno Smith is the quarterback for a win, he sucks because he didn't throw for enough touchdowns.

If Geno Smith throws for multiple touchdowns and wins, his yards per completion wasn't good enough.

If Geno Smith's yards per completion was actually fairly typical, combined with winning the game and throwing for multiple touchdowns including the game winner, then he didn't throw for enough passing yards because quarterbacking is now a cock-measuring contest where length is determined by passing yardage.

If Geno Smith throws for enough yards, multiple touchdowns, and wins the game with a game winning drive and game winning touchdowns, he sucks because they should've been winning by enough to not have to win the game on the last drive.

If Geno Smith has the team ahead enough to not need a game winning drive, the other team sucks so his performance doesn't count (and you'll say he would've lost it in the clutch).

If Geno Smith throws for enough passing yards, throws for multiple touchdowns and wins the game in the clutch, then you'll just make a stat look worse than it is, because all you've done is move goalposts this entire time.

 

[keasley45]

A great team (the other 52) can make an average qb look good and occassionally great.

A bad team can make a good QB look average to bad.

What level of team have we had the last w years?

27th O line.
28th rush attempts and efficiency
30th defense.

Thats Bad.

A bad team CANNOT make an average QB look good.

Geno has ranked between 10 and 13 at the position over his first 2 years as starter.

Thats above average.

During that span, he set the NFL record for 4th qtr comebacks (when his team surrendered the lead) in a season.

Is that the tape of a qb raising up his team depsite the fact they were a failure? Or THE tape of an average qb that played up to 10-13 because he benefited from... what exactly?

There's literally nothing else to say. Trying to paint the guy as average is just stubbornly holding onto sour grapes over the fact that a supposed washed up, perennial backup, 'guy who got bitch slapped by a teammate 11 years ago' came into Seattle and replaced the guy who was 'irreplaceable ' and destined to go onto greatness, without missing a beat. .. and actually played the position much more effeciently.

 

[NoGain]

OMG! I got sucked into this thread. I'd like to see what Geno can do with a better defense, a better offensive scheme, and a proficient offensive line. I'm not a Geno lover, per se, but he can throw the ball. No question he's got plus arm talent. And it sure *seems* the players on his offense have faith and confidence in him, which is quite important. I'm rolling with him now, and hope he exceeds my expectations of him.

When I think about Geno relative to the rest of the QB's in the league, I think it's fair to say that the rest of the league doesn't regard him as highly as some Hawk fans do. Why didn't teams like the Raiders, Steelers, Saints, Falcons, Vikings make a move for him when they had the chance to? I don't know.

I think if we build up a good team around him, Geno will be fine until we come up with a better long term answer.

This year will be a revealing one.

 

[themunn]

My expectations for Smith is to have 2 more seasons where the team is hovering around the average .500 mark record and to hear all the excuses as to why like the team was rebuilding, or the defense stunk, or the Oline stunk, new coaching staff, etc,,,. It is what it is and he is who he is.

With the weapons Smith has (arguably the best in the league) its realistic to expect better than .500 ball. We're not going to get if from him though.

Arguably the best in the league? Across the entirety of the offense, there is a single player (Metcalf) who was named (2nd!) Team All Pro, 4 years ago (yes Lockett was an All Pro once upon a time as a returner). Last year both starting tackles were injures and missed significant time, our rushing game finished bottom 5 in the league. Now, stats don't tell the whole story, and I do agree that across the offense we have a sum of fantastic players who are extremely talented on our team and will (and should) be competitive in every game this year. But how you can look at what Geno has done with this team and say he is a below average QB, and simultaneously say *he has arguably the best supporting cast in the league based on ZERO evidence* blows my mind.

And this is when we have - within our own division alone, let alone looking across the wider league - SF with an All Pro RB, TE, WR (2!), FB, LT.

 

[JayhawkMike]

The fan circle of holding no one accountable.

We were mediocre. It's the QB. NO! He gets pressured too much. Okay it's the OC and O-line coach who don't call quick plays and coach better protections. NO! PC tells the OC what to do. Okay, so It's PC. NO! PC doesn't do that and doesn't draft or sign the players. Okay, It's JS. NO! JS doesn't pick who plays or what the plays are and the draft choices at whatever draft position we are at and below are such a crap shoot no one can get those right. And JS isn't even on the field. Ok. So it the QB. . . . rinse and repeat. Someone here always deflects blame from everyone.

Geno is the starting QB. We could have won more games if Geno played better. We could have lost more games if Geno played worse. You cant give him credit for the one and absolve him from the losses with weak excuses.

And yes. If we had a top 5 OLine and top 5 receiving corps (We do) and a top 5 running attack and top 5 defense Geno would sure look good . . . as well as every single UDFA in the arena league. That isn't an argument for Geno it is actually an argument against him. It shows he lacks the ability as a player to overcome ANY imperfections on the rest of the team. Russ, early on, could compensate with his legs for a crappy O-Line. Mahomes can compensate with his accuracy for crappy receivers. Some top levels QBs can compensate for bad defenses by great time of possession or simply outscoring them in a shootout.

 

[DarkVictory23]

And yes. If we had a top 5 OLine and top 5 receiving corps (We do) and a top 5 running attack and top 5 defense Geno would sure look good . . . as well as every single UDFA in the arena league. That isn't an argument for Geno it is actually an argument against him. It shows he lacks the ability as a player to overcome ANY imperfections on the rest of the team. Russ, early on, could compensate with his legs for a crappy O-Line. Mahomes can compensate with his accuracy for crappy receivers. Some top levels QBs can compensate for bad defenses by great time of possession or simply outscoring them in a shootout.

How do you come into this after the previous page and still post this? I've already pointed out multiple times this isn't true and to the degree that it is--Geno is ONE of those QBs who actually did it!

Teams with defense as bad as ours was don't win games. Period.

5 teams, in the last 15 years, have had a defense as bad as ours was and ended with a winning record. That's 60 different squads, across a decade and a half of varying rules, styles, etc. and ONLY 5 QBs did what Geno did. You're telling me that's not an argument for Geno? Seriously?

Now, Mahomes, who nobody here has said Geno is as good as, had one season with a defense almost as bad as our 2023 'Hawks defense and to his credit, his team did well, had a winning record, and made the playoffs.

But Russ? He never--not once--ever had a defense as bad as the 2023 Seahawks. Russ never had a defense as bad as even the 2022 Seahawks. Russ's 'amazing' 2017 where he had to do it all himself, got the team to 9-7, and we missed the playoffs (sound familiar?)... we were a top 10 defense that year! (And I am certain that I couldn't possibly do a quick search back and find any of the most vocal 'no excuses for Geno' voices in this thread going on and on about the O-Line letting Russ down that year. That would be inconceivable to me...)

The only time Russ had close to as bad of a defense as what Geno's had as Seahawks QB was in 2021... you know the season where Russ went 6-8, got traded, and proceeded to flush his legacy down the toilet in Denver the next year? The downgraded version of which is what he left for Geno, who immediately went 9-8 and took us back to the playoffs?

EDIT: I got this COMPLETELY wrong. Our 2021 defense was actually a top-10 defense, not close to the bottom. Our 2022 defense, however, was STILL bottom 10. Russ not only never had a defense as bad as the two Geno had, he never had one even close.

My bad everyone.


What you and pittpnthrs suggest is your 'reasonable' expectation for Geno is for him to do something that basically no QBs, except for A-a-ron (who is a first freakin' ballot Hall of Famer) has done. Well, you've proved it to me, you win, I'll admit it: Geno is probably not a first ballot Hall of Famer.

Congrats.

 

[Double Tribble]

There is only one stat that matters. Wins. And so far, Geno, as the guy executing every offensive play, hasn't been able to overcome deficiencies on the team and refuse to lose in spite of them, as some qb's are capable of doing with regularity. That's why they are considered top qb's. Not because of their stats, but their ability to overcome obstacles and win. Especially in the playoffs, during those key moments with the season on the line.

Until Geno can do that, he will never be considered a top qb, and this team will flounder around in Purgatory for years. If he can't do it this year, then we should just stop wasting precious time and move on. If he can, great. Yayy for us.

 

[Maelstrom787]

There is only one stat that matters. Wins. And so far, Geno, as the guy executing every offensive play, hasn't been able to overcome deficiencies on the team and refuse to lose in spite of them, as some qb's are capable of doing with regularity. That's why they are considered top qb's. Not because of their stats, but their ability to overcome obstacles and win. Especially in the playoffs, during those key moments with the season on the line.

Until Geno can do that, he will never be considered a top qb, and this team will flounder around in Purgatory for years. If he can't do it this year, then we should just stop wasting precious time and move on. If he can, great. Yayy for us.

If Geno Smith is the quarterback for a loss, he sucks because he didn't win.

If Geno Smith is the quarterback for a win, he sucks because he didn't throw for enough touchdowns.

If Geno Smith throws for multiple touchdowns and wins, his yards per completion wasn't good enough.

If Geno Smith's yards per completion was actually fairly typical, combined with winning the game and throwing for multiple touchdowns including the game winner, then he didn't throw for enough passing yards because quarterbacking is now a cock-measuring contest where length is determined by passing yardage.

If Geno Smith throws for enough yards, multiple touchdowns, and wins the game with a game winning drive and game winning touchdowns, he sucks because they should've been winning by enough to not have to win the game on the last drive.

If Geno Smith has the team ahead enough to not need a game winning drive, the other team sucks so his performance doesn't count (and you'll say he would've lost it in the clutch).

Posted for obvious reasons.

Also, have you read the thread? Because it is pretty much undeniable that no quarterback does what you're suggesting that Geno Smith should be able to do. At all. Anywhere.

 

[Maelstrom787]

How do you come into this after the previous page and still post this? I've already pointed out multiple times this isn't true and to the degree that it is--Geno is ONE of those QBs who actually did it!

Teams with defense as bad as ours was don't win games. Period.

5 teams, in the last 15 years, have had a defense as bad as ours was and ended with a winning record. That's 60 different squads, across a decade and a half of varying rules, styles, etc. and ONLY 5 QBs did what Geno did. You're telling me that's not an argument for Geno? Seriously?

Now, Mahomes, who nobody here has said Geno is as good as, had one season with a defense almost as bad as our 2023 'Hawks defense and to his credit, his team did well, had a winning record, and made the playoffs.

But Russ? He never--not once--ever had a defense as bad as the 2023 Seahawks. Russ never had a defense as bad as even the 2022 Seahawks. Russ's 'amazing' 2017 where he had to do it all himself, got the team to 9-7, and we missed the playoffs (sound familiar?)... we were a top 10 defense that year! (And I am certain that I couldn't possibly do a quick search back and find any of the most vocal 'no excuses for Geno' voices in this thread going on and on about the O-Line letting Russ down that year. That would be inconceivable to me...)

The only time Russ had close to as bad of a defense as what Geno's had as Seahawks QB was in 2021... you know the season where Russ went 6-8, got traded, and proceeded to flush his legacy down the toilet in Denver the next year? The downgraded version of which is what he left for Geno, who immediately went 9-8 and took us back to the playoffs?


What you and pittpnthrs suggest is your 'reasonable' expectation for Geno is for him to do something that basically no QBs, except for A-a-ron (who is a first freakin' ballot Hall of Famer) has done. Well, you've proved it to me, you win, I'll admit it: Geno is probably not a first ballot Hall of Famer.

Congrats.

Lol, c'mon, you know he didn't read it.

Also, people need to read this quoted post very, very closely - because it is becoming obvious that many here have an understanding of the league that is not compatible with reality.

Seriously. Let's all calibrate ourselves on the reality of the league, because what many of you seem to think are valid standards to hold quarterbacks to are actually nearly impossible and unprecedented in the modern history of the NFL.

The thing that makes me more comfortable in my viewpoint is that the people who agree with me are the ones posting research, and the ones who disagree are the ones sticking to "I dunno, he shoulda won it himself if he were good" rather than film or data. It's telling.

 

[Double Tribble]

Lol, c'mon, you know he didn't read it.

Also, people need to read this quoted post very, very closely - because it is becoming obvious that many here have an understanding of the league that is not compatible with reality.

Seriously. Let's all calibrate ourselves on the reality of the league, because what many of you seem to think are valid standards to hold quarterbacks to are actually nearly impossible and unprecedented in the modern history of the NFL.

The thing that makes me more comfortable in my viewpoint is that the people who agree with me are the ones posting research, and the ones who disagree are the ones sticking to "I dunno, he shoulda won it himself if he were good" rather than film or data. It's telling.

This may come as a shock to you, but I don't need to read your posts to voice my own opinion. I've been watching football for decades, and I know what I've seen. And this may also come as a shock, but you don't have to reply if you disagree. Who knew?

 

[chris98251]

Seahawks Win Super Bowl !

Geno has 4 Touchdowns and throws for only 225 yards,

People say he sucked, for not having 300 yards, threw for only 67 percent, and only used 5 receivers.

Thats how rough he has it on this board.

 

[Maelstrom787]

This may come as a shock to you, but I don't need to read your posts to voice my own opinion. I've been watching football for decades, and I know what I've seen. And this may also come as a shock, but you don't have to reply if you disagree. Who knew?

DarkVictory23's post that I was replying to was a reply to JayhawkMike. That is who I was stating did not read the thread, as he has been bragging about literally not being able to read the thread due to blocking other members.

With that clarification out of the way, my question to you asking whether you had read the thread up to this point was due to DarkVictory23's posts about the same topic of W/L for QBs - what teams that performed (outside of QB) like the 2022 and 2023 Seattle Seahawks were able to achieve. It isn't pretty, and it almost invariably leads to losing seasons - even in the case of Drew Brees, who went 7-9 4 times in a row when faced with supporting casts who performed as badly as Seattle's did.

Sure, at the end of the day, wins are the goal - but wins are not the ultimate responsibility of the quarterback. The quarterback, like any other player on the team, is there to do their job. It takes a cohesive team effort to consistently win in the NFL. When you have a star quarterback and you give him mostly nothing to work with, you get seasons like Matthew Stafford, Drew Brees, and Matt Ryan were used to - middling record, missing the playoffs. Geno has achieved the same type of results those guys did when their defenses and running games performed like shite, and he's matched what Russell did with no run game (even though Russ had a defense that finished 10th in the league in his 9-7 2017 season).

It's fairly conclusive that Geno's W/L is significantly better than the average W/L record of a quarterback on a team with horrific defense and little rushing support.

This is like blaming Boye Mafe for the run defense last year and saying we'll never stop the run with Boye Mafe out there. He was there last year, but... it's a pretty odd place to put the blame considering the surrounding context.

Also, to ask a frank question... if you know what you've seen, why is every bit of statistical data and historical context going against the grain of said eye test? Why are you resistant to engaging with well-reasoned, well-sourced information that contradicts the viewpoint you're expressing?

If Geno isn't winning, why did he break the record for most game winning touchdown passes in the 4th this past year? If other quarterbacks are able to win those games themselves... why is Geno holding that record and not those other "elevators?"

 

[CouchLogic]

Can't wait to find out what Seattle can do...

I'm good on all this, lol.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Congratulations, that was an expert level dodge. I applaud your ability to avoid engaging any of the actual points presented.

I looked back an additional 5 years, so another 20 teams, and you know how many more teams with bottom 4 defenses had winning records? 0. No additional teams made the playoffs. No additional teams won playoff games.

This is now a 1-in-60 phenomena at this point and you argue that it's realistic to expect it to happen? Seriously? If I told you I was going to flip a coin, would you say it's 'realistic' to expect it to land on heads 6 times in a row? Because that's the type of probability we are talking about. What definition of 'realistic' are you even using here?

---

You keep falling back on the 'weapons' Geno has, as though none of the other QBs I mentioned who failed to do what you expect Geno to do had weapons.

Matt Ryan, across multiple seasons with defenses this bad, had the likes of Tony Gonzalez, Julio Jones, Austin Hooper, Devin Hester, and Kyle Pitts--he did not have a winning record any of those seasons.

When Kirk Cousins had a defense as bad as our 2023 defense, he had Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen, and Dalvin Cook. He did not have a winning record.

Drew Brees and the Saints, I think, are super illustrative. From 2012 to the 2016 season, Brees and the Saints went 7-9 four out of five seasons. The lone exception, 2013--the only season in that stretch where they had a winning record and went to the playoffs--was the only season their defense wasn't bottom 4. Jimmy Graham was there for most of that time. Mark Ingram was there for most of that time. Drew Brees was there for ALL of that time.

Yet, Drew Brees who you assured us elevated his team, had 4 different seasons with a defense as bad as ours and a did not have a winning season once.

---

Your expectations of what Geno should have done last year are wildly disconnected from reality.

It's not an excuse. I don't need to make excuses for why Drew Brees couldn't win with a bottom 4 defense. I don't need to make an excuse for why Matt Ryan, Matt Stafford, Kirk Cousins, Tony Romo, Eli Manning, Cam Newton, Andy Dalton, or Carson Palmer* couldn't win with a bottom 4 defense. Because nobody should realistically expect ANY QB to win with a bottom 4 defense.


* Yes, in the last 15 years, all of those guys had a bottom 4 defense at least once and NONE of them were able to generate a winning record.

You've been so hung up on this bottom tier defense since the thread started. So if and when the defense is middle of the road and Geno once again leads the team to a .500ish record, then what? Just move to another area of the team and throw blame there right?

It's not even about all of that anyways. I don't think Geno has the mental makeup or football smarts to take a team anywhere in the post season. If he does, I was wrong. If he doesn't, it was expected.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Look at how much this guy doesn't care about stats. He cares about stats so little that he can find a way to frame objectively good quarterback performances (that led to wins) as bad because the volume stats weren't good enough for him.

The point of the extrapolation is not to say "wow, single games stretched out over a whole season are the best way to judge quarterbacks!" That's dumb. Making conclusions on small sample sizes is foolish, which is why the Steelers point you've been harping on is nonsense.

The point of taking those single games and extrapolating them into full seasons is to illustrate the fact that the stats you're framing as poor are not as poor as you're trying to portray them as. They're simple tools to illustrate what a season of those games would look like, because what you're framing as horrible is actually pretty friggin' typical, if not downright good.

He used to care about scoring stats. When Geno scored more in this game, he pivoted to Geno's yardage not being good enough despite the YPA being pretty typical of the quarterbacks he's comparing Geno negatively to.

He used to care about wins. Geno and the Seahawks won, so now the wins don't matter when the yards aren't good enough.

I trust that most who are following this thread can see through the act by this point.

And, yet again, you ignore context.

You ignore defensive performance. You're pining for Kyler Murray's stats despite the fact that he scored half the points Geno did. You're pining for Kyler Murray's stats that were achieved with the support of a running attack that Seattle AGAIN could not stop, as they let James Connor run for 150 on 27 carries.

You were the one trying to mask an average to poor performace as something good or great, not me. You say "single games stretched out over a whole season are the best way to judge quartbacks" is dumb, but it's exactly what you did.

When did Geno and the Seahawks win? They've been as close to .500 the past two years as a team can be now due to the extra game. That's average yet you want to paint it as some kind of accomplishment.

Lol. And why are you bringing up James Connor and his stats? He has nothing to do with anything at all. I just brought up Murrays stats from the same game and asked you to apply them in the same ridiculous manner as you did Geno's to point out that it was in fact,,,,,,ridiculous.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Arguably the best in the league? Across the entirety of the offense, there is a single player (Metcalf) who was named (2nd!) Team All Pro, 4 years ago (yes Lockett was an All Pro once upon a time as a returner). Last year both starting tackles were injures and missed significant time, our rushing game finished bottom 5 in the league. Now, stats don't tell the whole story, and I do agree that across the offense we have a sum of fantastic players who are extremely talented on our team and will (and should) be competitive in every game this year. But how you can look at what Geno has done with this team and say he is a below average QB, and simultaneously say *he has arguably the best supporting cast in the league based on ZERO evidence* blows my mind.

And this is when we have - within our own division alone, let alone looking across the wider league - SF with an All Pro RB, TE, WR (2!), FB, LT.

I'm not saying he's below average. I'm saying he's not much better than average. I'm also pointing out that some of the numbers he's obtained over the past couple seasons could have been obtained by a lot of other QB's in the league given the same weapons and situation.

Bottom line is Geno isn't a bad QB, but he's nothing special either.

 

[DarkVictory23]

You've been so hung up on this bottom tier defense since the thread started. So if and when the defense is middle of the road and Geno once again leads the team to a .500ish record, then what? Just move to another area of the team and throw blame there right?

This is ridiculous. I've been pointing out about the defense because you (and a couple of the other borderline obsessive Geno-haters), for reasons that I simply cannot fathom, have repeatedly pushed a narrative that 'wins are a QB stat' and that 'a better QB would have won despite the other deficiencies on the team'.

I have provided actual evidence that, no, better QBs don't win with the defense we had. Like, it shouldn't be expected at all. I don't even know why it has to be said that, yes, defenses actually have an independent effect on a team's record but for some reason it does because, of course it does.

You are holding Geno to a standard that multiple other QBs that you yourself said were better in this very thread have not managed to reach. Rather than you being able to just own it and say, 'Ok, yeah, I'm very harsh on Geno, maybe it's not fair but for whatever reason I just don't like him', you keep trying to fall back as if your position is based on some well thought-out logical foundation and then, despite the fact that I'm the one actually using evidence to back up my case, project onto me like I'm debating this in the same shallow way you are.

Why have you been perfectly content to throw the Seahawks Offensive Line (or Pete... so many times Pete) under the bus basically any time Russ happened to throw an incompletion, but it's a problem to point out our horrid defense here? It's funny how reasons become 'explanations' for a QB you like and 'excuses' for one you don't.

I'm saying Geno has been very good (though not great) as our starting QB because that's what the numbers say and because what I see on film lines up with that. Geno's advanced stats as the Seahawks starter of the past two years put him as roughly a top-10 QB and the eye test mostly agrees. So that's why I say he's roughly a top 10 QB.

You are saying he's not because...

It's not even about all of that anyways. I don't think Geno has the mental makeup or football smarts to take a team anywhere in the post season. If he does, I was wrong. If he doesn't, it was expected.

...of this? I don't even know what to make of this (and what little I can doesn't lead anywhere good), but I'm definitely not going to touch this.

But you know, reply back if you have any interest in actually engaging the numbers I've provided instead of ignoring them--again--but I won't be debating Geno's 'mental makeup'.

 

[pittpnthrs]

This is ridiculous. I've been pointing out about the defense because you (and a couple of the other borderline obsessive Geno-haters), for reasons that I simply cannot fathom, have repeatedly pushed a narrative that 'wins are a QB stat' and that 'a better QB would have won despite the other deficiencies on the team'.

I have provided actual evidence that, no, better QBs don't win with the defense we had. Like, it shouldn't be expected at all. I don't even know why it has to be said that, yes, defenses actually have an independent effect on a team's record but for some reason it does because, of course it does.

You are holding Geno to a standard that multiple other QBs that you yourself said were better in this very thread have not managed to reach. Rather than you being able to just own it and say, 'Ok, yeah, I'm very harsh on Geno, maybe it's not fair but for whatever reason I just don't like him', you keep trying to fall back as if your position is based on some well thought-out logical foundation and then, despite the fact that I'm the one actually using evidence to back up my case, project onto me like I'm debating this in the same shallow way you are.

Why have you been perfectly content to throw the Seahawks Offensive Line (or Pete... so many times Pete) under the bus basically any time Russ happened to throw an incompletion, but it's a problem to point out our horrid defense here? It's funny how reasons become 'explanations' for a QB you like and 'excuses' for one you don't.

I'm saying Geno has been very good (though not great) as our starting QB because that's what the numbers say and because what I see on film lines up with that. Geno's advanced stats as the Seahawks starter of the past two years put him as roughly a top-10 QB and the eye test mostly agrees. So that's why I say he's roughly a top 10 QB.

You are saying he's not because...


...of this? I don't even know what to make of this (and what little I can doesn't lead anywhere good), but I'm definitely not going to touch this.

But you know, reply back if you have any interest in actually engaging the numbers I've provided instead of ignoring them--again--but I won't be debating Geno's 'mental makeup'.

Look, I understand what your saying and maybe i'm not being clear with my point of view. I'm basically saying that Geno has had some good regular season numbers, but i'm not seeing how a lot of other NFL QB's around the league wouldn't have just as good or better numbers too considering the weapons on offense that Geno has. It has nothing to do with the defense. As for wins, if Geno can muster up 9 with a team, than I don't see why a lot of other QB's couldn't muster up 9 as well (or better with really good QB's). I've said Geno isn't a bad QB, but I don't see anything special with him either. He's an average to slightly above average QB, but a lot of people think he's more than that including you. We just don't agree.

As for Wilson and the Oline when he was here, it was obvious the Oline stunk (so much so that he went public with it basically demanding changes). It was also obvious that Carroll didn't put a big emphasis on the Oline because he knew Russ could make up for it with his feet,,,,,until he couldnt, and then you saw Pete taking players like Dee Eskridge over players like Creed Humphreys in the draft and it was apparent that it was never going to get better. That's why I hold no blame on Wilson for doing what he did.

 

[JayhawkMike]

Look, I understand what your saying and maybe i'm not being clear with my point of view. I'm basically saying that Geno has had some good regular season numbers, but i'm not seeing how a lot of other NFL QB's around the league wouldn't have just as good or better numbers too considering the weapons on offense that Geno has. It has nothing to do with the defense. As for wins, if Geno can muster up 9 with a team, than I don't see why a lot of other QB's couldn't muster up 9 as well (or better with really good QB's). I've said Geno isn't a bad QB, but I don't see anything special with him either. He's an average to slightly above average QB, but a lot of people think he's more than that including you. We just don't agree.

As for Wilson and the Oline when he was here, it was obvious the Oline stunk (so much so that he went public with it basically demanding changes). It was also obvious that Carroll didn't put a big emphasis on the Oline because he knew Russ could make up for it with his feet,,,,,until he couldnt, and then you saw Pete taking players like Dee Eskridge over players like Creed Humphreys in the draft and it was apparent that it was never going to get better. That's why I hold no blame on Wilson for doing what he did.

Perfectly stated and agree 100%

Thinking Geno is mediocre to average doesn't mean you think he's the worst ever. Typical internet troll pattern is to give you an extreme position you didn't take and then make you spend effort defend yourself against that untrue assertion instead of the argument at hand.

My prediction is he'll have a couple of good games early. The Geno is Perfect crowd will be yelling from the rooftops and then after a few more games where he is mediocre they will just shut down the discussion with obscure stats or call people haters (you aren't a REAL fan) and blame it on everything else or call it old news. Normal pattern. But we will hear them early. What they don't understand is we WANT the team to win so we take no joy in being right.