DVR review Seahawks vs. Broncos

[Mtjhoyas]

Good stuff Kearly.

Regarding Willson, and yes it's early, but this is a guy who is really showing that testing numbers, though they are sexy, don't mean as much in the grand scheme when it comes to playing football. I totally agree that he can't separate like a 4.51 guy and he just lacks football savy. Just looks really unnatural. I'm by no means writing him off, but I'm close to thinking his contributions this year will be minimal.

Regarding Turbin; I really want to like him. On the hoof, he's a specimen and every once in awhile he shows some serious burst and busts a good run. That said, the guy has a really tough time creating on his own. The constant ankle tackles, ghost tripping, etc is becoming frustrating to watch. I know Spencer Ware doesn't possess the burst or speed, but I'd much rather see a guy get 4-5 yards every time, and lay some punishment on defenders. To me, Spencer Ware epitomizes Seahawk football. You watch him run, and you can literally see defenders saying (with body language) "oh Gd this is going to be a long afternoon full of suck." I don't get that with Turbin.

Overall, for some real negatives in the game, we still laid a beat down and played tough nose football. Gone are the days where teams are comfortable playing us. We have a team full of bad men, willing to do bad things. Better bring it or you will go home on a stretcher (prayers to Wolfe btw...not meant to be a shot at a serious issue).

 

[Scottemojo]

On RW, my opinion: a lot of overthrows were him making sure he missed on the green side. No turnovers.

Mayowa should not be expected to even play this year. He is not super quick, but he plays with power and lean. He needs 15 good pounds to be what he can be. I look forward to him taking Clemons spot next year. Practice squad.

Willson looks like the classic athlete playing at football.

As far as Lotulelei, he may or may not make this squad, but I am of the opinion that Pete can always find more like him. Morgan, Smith, Bradford, KJ, and even Wagner were not great prospects according to a bunch of "experts", but they have the right kind of attitude and enough athleticism, and Pete simplifies the position so that only the biggest dullard(Curry) could fail to get it.

Bates? Ideal size, but there is little else that makes me think he will ever be a good player. He doesn't look like he has the instincts to be a full back.

I have gotten over being worried about teams picking up scraps who don't make the team. Stephen Williams, Schofield, Brooks- They all were scraps from somewhere else before Schneider picked them up. There are going to be more just like them. The cost of being a good program is that other teams do your recycling for you. For years, the Patriots cuts have been given extra scrutiny, as have Green Bay's. It is a compliment. This is not like when Michael Bennett got snagged off waivers, our front office knows how to restock the shelves.

In fact, I will go a step farther. How do you think Schneider gets these UDFA's to sign to a 90 man roster that is unlikely to have a 53 man spot for them? He tells them that they are far more likely to get picked up off waivers after being a Seahawk, that is how. They are more likely to get an NFL job after being cut from our team than they are being one of the 37 cuts for a large number of other teams. Our talent level is high enough that the play they are putting on tape is quality stuff. Some of the late game preseason stuff is pretty unwatchable for most teams. I am stunned how even our 3rd stringers look well coached, most team's 3rd string look like chaos. It would sure suck to be a decent player at the back of San Diego's roster, for example.

On our running backs: I think it takes a bit of time for players to learn the patience it takes to run behind this line. Power block size, zone block scheme is an odd combination. Sometimes it feels to me like the running backs don't wait quite long enough for the guards to disengage and move to a 2nd block. I think it took Marshawn a while to get it, I think Turbo still struggles with it, and so does Michael. But Ware seems built for it. Especially when like Lynch, he is running an outside zone.

 

[Hawknballs]

Another thing about Wilson's overthrows..at least 2 that I could see very well from routes run in the area of the field I can see from my seat... it looked like he wanted the receivers to just head for the end zone and was throwing as such, but the receivers kept running their routes event though they probably should have seen a wide open easy TD. Not to be too much in the "RW can do no wrong" camp, there were a couple missed throws but at least two I saw that were 6 points if the receiver recognizes that they have a free trip to the end zone.

 

[truehawksfan]

As always...good stuff.

I know my question has nothing to do about personnel - more on a specific formation - but SD and DEN used a bunch formation and picked-up chunks of yards. And, they ran that formation against the ones.

I know the team doesn't game plan in the preseason, but I suspect we'll see a lot of this until we solve it.

 

[FlyingGreg]

Great stuff as always, Kip.

I'm just not seeing it with Willson either, although to be fair in this game both his targets were bad throws from Wilson.

I'm concerned about TE overall. If something happens to Miller, it's a big problem. I still expect them to sign or trade for someone...I think Willson will make it through waivers since nobody really knew who he was in the first place. Perhaps a year on the P.S. will push him along. We have two "projects" (Willson and Fells) on the roster right now, one for sure (Miller), and two guys who look good in pre-season games (McGrath and Helfet).

I think we are going to miss McCoy more than a lot of people admit.

 

[Scottemojo]

As always...good stuff.

I know my question has nothing to do about personnel - more on a specific formation - but SD and DEN used a bunch formation and picked-up chunks of yards. And, they ran that formation against the ones.

I know the team doesn't game plan in the preseason, but I suspect we'll see a lot of this until we solve it.

I would not worry too much about the bunch sets. It is an attempt to ease the get off for receivers going against press corners, and is a good way to set up receiver screens, but it also allows safeties and big corners to square up receivers on short passes.

Remember the Dick Sure sack and fumble on Mark Sanchez? That was a bunch set, so Sherman just executed an automatic blitz from the side without the bunch.

 

[jammerhawk]

Thank for the post kearly, great stuff, very enjoyable reading!

Think the game got out of hand early for Denver and the score didn't reflect how good they actually were, not that the Hawks were bad at all. In fact they are starting to round into the punishing D we all love. Hope RW can improve a bit on his overthrows, but he still has an amazing arm field vision well beyond his expereience and makes some incredible passes look easy.

Only areas of real concern to me are TE and the pass rush. At this stage I'm more concerned with how little interior rush the team seems to be getting. The edge rush will soon get a lot stronger with the return of a few guys this may help the interior rush as well. Peyton just makes most pass rushes look bad and that reality needs to be remembered too.

I'm prepared to be patient on both b/c Miller is now off PUP and will soon be back to form. a The pass rush is missing Avril, Irvin, and Clemons who when added will materially change the look of things. The comment above about McCoy is really true.

There was a lot to still fix and a lot more that looked pretty sweet.

 

[hawker84]

I'm not concerned about the overthrows, he did just fine last seaon, no reason to think that won't be the same case this season.

Turbin looked ok, didn't have a lot of room to run, but i did notice the shoe string tackles.

Kam, Wagner and Browner, are beasts. Kearse , Tate and Williams looked damn good.

ET is a little missle for sure, but he did have a missed tackle for a loss that hurt us, he's got to make that tackle

Our pass rush, did not impress me, our run defense was down right horrible. Yes we're missing starters, but damn, we couldn't stop anything. But you have to keep in mind, we were going up against one of the best offenses in the league, and one of the best QB's to ever play the game, so not complaining.

Overall, i was not impressed with the starting O or D. Lot of starters out so they did ok i guess, but nowhere near dominent in any phase. would like to see RW a lot more accurate next week.

ST looked awseome again.

Overall, why'll not overly impressed with the actual play, i was extremely happy with the intensity and physicality of our team, the D looks to be in mid season form, intenstity wise..

 

[Sarlacc83]

On our running backs: I think it takes a bit of time for players to learn the patience it takes to run behind this line. Power block size, zone block scheme is an odd combination. Sometimes it feels to me like the running backs don't wait quite long enough for the guards to disengage and move to a 2nd block. I think it took Marshawn a while to get it, I think Turbo still struggles with it, and so does Michael. But Ware seems built for it. Especially when like Lynch, he is running an outside zone.

I had this same thought last night, but Scotte beat me to posting it. It took Lynch almost an entire calender year to 'get' it and become our current stud.

One thing that it's helpful to remember, especially during preseason when our defense looks porous, is that this happened to us last year, too. Our defense started games slow, especially against great QBs, but eventually the physicality wore opposing offenses down by the second half. The Patriots scored, what, 21 points in the first half last year, and then 3 in the second? Even the Falcons put up a single TD in the second half. Seattle plays a long game.

Also, it's helpful to remember that other players are really, really good sometimes. Players like Manning and D. Thomas are (probably) going to get theirs, but Seattle will lose a battle to win the war.

 

[kearly]

Why do you think Eli sucks? Because neither the Giants or Broncos can actually run the ball. Much like Indianapolis, but at least the Colts realize that and understand success isn't all about Luck. Unlike Denver and NYG and by extension the Manning brothers.

If you were talking to me, I think Eli Manning is an outstanding QB. If he makes the HoF, I won't protest. Very good regular season QB, legendary postseason QB.

Regarding Turbin; I really want to like him. On the hoof, he's a specimen and every once in awhile he shows some serious burst and busts a good run. That said, the guy has a really tough time creating on his own. The constant ankle tackles, ghost tripping, etc is becoming frustrating to watch. I know Spencer Ware doesn't possess the burst or speed, but I'd much rather see a guy get 4-5 yards every time, and lay some punishment on defenders. To me, Spencer Ware epitomizes Seahawk football. You watch him run, and you can literally see defenders saying (with body language) "oh Gd this is going to be a long afternoon full of suck." I don't get that with Turbin.

If Turbin had the resilience of our other three runners, he'd be our best RB. Instead, resilience is his biggest weakness and I think that makes him a player you only want to see in non-rushing situations where he can rack up cheap yardage (3rd and long draws, etc). I agree that Ware looks the part of a Seahawks starting RB. Sure, he's playing against scrubs, but it's not easy to average 6.0 yards per carry when your longest rush attempt is just 20 yards. One of the things that makes Lynch great is how he is not only productive, but consistent. Ware and Michael have that consistency too. Turbin doesn't. Which is a shame, because Turbin is really talented.

 

[Scottemojo]

If Lynch is the drunken master, Turbin is the running quail. Top heavy and always on the verge of falling on their faces, quail are.

 

[themunn]

If Turbin had the resilience of our other three runners, he'd be our best RB. Instead, resilience is his biggest weakness and I think that makes him a player you only want to see in non-rushing situations where he can rack up cheap yardage (3rd and long draws, etc). I agree that Ware looks the part of a Seahawks starting RB. Sure, he's playing against scrubs, but it's not easy to average 6.0 yards per carry when your longest rush attempt is just 20 yards. One of the things that makes Lynch great is how he is not only productive, but consistent. Ware and Michael have that consistency too. Turbin doesn't. Which is a shame, because Turbin is really talented.

It is when you only carry the ball 9 times.
On his other 8 carries he had 34 yards.
Turbin had 35 on 9 carries - against the ones.

I was more impressed by Turbo, to be honest
His 9 runs went for: 1, 7, 5, 8, 6, 5, 1, 3, -1

Ware went for 1, 0, 1, 8, 13, 2, 9, 0, 20

4 big runs and 5 nothing runs compared to 6 consistent runs from Turbin. Yes, Turbin had bigger holes to run through, but getting to those holes isn't always easy.

 

[kearly]

It's gotten to the point now where 90% of the reason I ever start a thread is to hear Scottemojo weigh in on the subject.

On RW, my opinion: a lot of overthrows were him making sure he missed on the green side. No turnovers.

I think it was combination of factors:

#1: Rust. I think overthrowing comes naturally to Wilson and he probably needs to be in midseason form to conquer it.

#2: Respect for Denver's elite defense.

#3: Avoiding turnovers at all costs (except for the free play).

#4: He had an off day specifically in terms of overthrowing. Wilson has a history of overthrows, but this was the worst outing I've ever seen from him in that regard. Probably a bit fluky that he had as many as he did.

Mayowa should not be expected to even play this year. He is not super quick, but he plays with power and lean. He needs 15 good pounds to be what he can be. I look forward to him taking Clemons spot next year. Practice squad.

Totally agree. For all the talk about Seattle needing blistering speed at LEO, their history (Clemons, Brock) proves the opposite. Clemons wasn't a speedster even when he was a 236 pound LB at Georgia. His speed is maybe a hair above average, but it's his complete skillset that makes him what he is. It is part of the reason that I hold some optimism for Clemons having a decent season this year. His skill set will age relatively well, though I don't expect him to be a star for much longer.

Mayowa has the same exact skillset as Clemons, which is pretty amazing considering his lack of experience. His non-physical talent is top 15 pick worthy, he just needs a bigger body.

As far as Lotulelei, he may or may not make this squad, but I am of the opinion that Pete can always find more like him. Morgan, Smith, Bradford, KJ, and even Wagner were not great prospects according to a bunch of "experts", but they have the right kind of attitude and enough athleticism, and Pete simplifies the position so that only the biggest dullard(Curry) could fail to get it.

This. I don't think Lotulelei has been miles better than Korey Toomer was last preseason, and he was a tools guy they actually drafted. Toolsy linebackers in need of coaching up are available dirt cheap every year.

I have gotten over being worried about teams picking up scraps who don't make the team. Stephen Williams, Schofield, Brooks-

Maybe I misread your intention here, but I don't think any of those three specific guys will get cut. Williams and Schofield could get the axe during the middle of the season when Clemons and Harvin are back, potentially. With Brooks, I see a guy that is way too talented to even consider letting go. He's been a monster, and unlike Mayowa he looks the part physically too. Need to see him against 1st stringers, but so far he's looking one of the best UDFA's JS has had, and that's saying something.

In fact, I will go a step farther. How do you think Schneider gets these UDFA's to sign to a 90 man roster that is unlikely to have a 53 man spot for them? He tells them that they are far more likely to get picked up off waivers after being a Seahawk, that is how. They are more likely to get an NFL job after being cut from our team than they are being one of the 37 cuts for a large number of other teams. Our talent level is high enough that the play they are putting on tape is quality stuff. Some of the late game preseason stuff is pretty unwatchable for most teams. I am stunned how even our 3rd stringers look well coached, most team's 3rd string look like chaos. It would sure suck to be a decent player at the back of San Diego's roster, for example.

Great points.

On our running backs: I think it takes a bit of time for players to learn the patience it takes to run behind this line. Power block size, zone block scheme is an odd combination. Sometimes it feels to me like the running backs don't wait quite long enough for the guards to disengage and move to a 2nd block. I think it took Marshawn a while to get it, I think Turbo still struggles with it, and so does Michael. But Ware seems built for it. Especially when like Lynch, he is running an outside zone.

I agree. Could you go into a bit more detail with your thoughts on Ware and outside zone running?

 

[themunn]

I have gotten over being worried about teams picking up scraps who don't make the team. Stephen Williams, Schofield, Brooks-

Maybe I misread your intention here, but I don't think any of those three specific guys will get cut. Williams and Schofield could get the axe during the middle of the season when Clemons and Harvin are back, potentially. With Brooks, I see a guy that is way too talented to even consider letting go. He's been a monster, and unlike Mayowa he looks the part physically too. Need to see him against 1st stringers, but so far he's looking one of the best UDFA's JS has had, and that's saying something.

I read it as "teams might pick up our cuts, but we'll then pick up other teams cuts and they'll be better than the players we actually cut."

 

[bestfightstory]

Reading this write up makes me consider the possibility Red Bryant was the mystery dlineman who allegedly asked if he was in danger of being replaced.

Had never even considered him a candidate, prior.

 

[Chukarhawk]

Good stuff Kearly.

Regarding Willson, and yes it's early, but this is a guy who is really showing that testing numbers, though they are sexy, don't mean as much in the grand scheme when it comes to playing football. I totally agree that he can't separate like a 4.51 guy and he just lacks football savy. Just looks really unnatural. I'm by no means writing him off, but I'm close to thinking his contributions this year will be minimal.

Regarding Turbin; I really want to like him. On the hoof, he's a specimen and every once in awhile he shows some serious burst and busts a good run. That said, the guy has a really tough time creating on his own. The constant ankle tackles, ghost tripping, etc is becoming frustrating to watch. I know Spencer Ware doesn't possess the burst or speed, but I'd much rather see a guy get 4-5 yards every time, and lay some punishment on defenders. To me, Spencer Ware epitomizes Seahawk football. You watch him run, and you can literally see defenders saying (with body language) "oh Gd this is going to be a long afternoon full of suck." I don't get that with Turbin.




Overall, for some real negatives in the game, we still laid a beat down and played tough nose football. Gone are the days where teams are comfortable playing us. We have a team full of bad men, willing to do bad things. Better bring it or you will go home on a stretcher (prayers to Wolfe btw...not meant to be a shot at a serious issue).

Im with you on Turbin, never seen a guy able to tackle himself more than this guy. He may be just pushing too hard, he's getting limited reps and clearly wants to maximize every carry

 

[chevelle03]

I enjoy reading your posts, kearly. Thanks for taking the time for such detailed analysis. It's interesting to read how differently you and Nemhauser from hawkblogger.com describe Lotu. Do you ever read his stuff?

 

[kearly]

If Turbin had the resilience of our other three runners, he'd be our best RB. Instead, resilience is his biggest weakness and I think that makes him a player you only want to see in non-rushing situations where he can rack up cheap yardage (3rd and long draws, etc). I agree that Ware looks the part of a Seahawks starting RB. Sure, he's playing against scrubs, but it's not easy to average 6.0 yards per carry when your longest rush attempt is just 20 yards. One of the things that makes Lynch great is how he is not only productive, but consistent. Ware and Michael have that consistency too. Turbin doesn't. Which is a shame, because Turbin is really talented.

It is when you only carry the ball 9 times.
On his other 8 carries he had 34 yards.
Turbin had 35 on 9 carries - against the ones.

I was more impressed by Turbo, to be honest
His 9 runs went for: 1, 7, 5, 8, 6, 5, 1, 3, -1

Ware went for 1, 0, 1, 8, 13, 2, 9, 0, 20

4 big runs and 5 nothing runs compared to 6 consistent runs from Turbin. Yes, Turbin had bigger holes to run through, but getting to those holes isn't always easy.

Even when you take away Ware's biggest run, his numbers were still better. I am not ripping Turbin, but if Turbin has value it's for his speed and big play ability. At Utah State, he put up very nice stats thanks to the big play. But in Seattle, he seems to have had trouble ripping off those 20+ yard runs, even though he's got the speed to go to the house on every snap. Turbin has a ton of talent, but runs like his shoelaces are untied. It's actually almost laughable how easy he goes down sometimes. Even Julius Jones could spin move out of tackles.

Also, I thought the starting line did a better job run blocking than the second group did in this game, unlike the Chargers game. I think Ware would do pretty well with the starters. He seems to fit Cable's system like a glove, though like Scott said, he might need some practice to master the timing.

 

[Hendo66]

Great stuff as always, Kip.

I'm just not seeing it with Willson either, although to be fair in this game both his targets were bad throws from Wilson.

I'm concerned about TE overall. If something happens to Miller, it's a big problem. I still expect them to sign or trade for someone...I think Willson will make it through waivers since nobody really knew who he was in the first place. Perhaps a year on the P.S. will push him along. We have two "projects" (Willson and Fells) on the roster right now, one for sure (Miller), and two guys who look good in pre-season games (McGrath and Helfet).

I think we are going to miss McCoy more than a lot of people admit.

Kearly, your material is appreciated.

I'm also officially concerned with TE. Miller is the man but we all know about his injury frequency. I was hoping Willson would flash but the season is rapidly approaching, I'll keep hoping. McGrath and Helfet are serviceable and that is a sweet beard.
It is so thin at TE out there that a trade seems to be the best way to address this position.
How about a trade with one of our favorites: Detroit?
Something like Maxwell or Lane for Schefler?

 

[Scottemojo]

I have gotten over being worried about teams picking up scraps who don't make the team. Stephen Williams, Schofield, Brooks-

Maybe I misread your intention here, but I don't think any of those three specific guys will get cut. Williams and Schofield could get the axe during the middle of the season when Clemons and Harvin are back, potentially. With Brooks, I see a guy that is way too talented to even consider letting go. He's been a monster, and unlike Mayowa he looks the part physically too. Need to see him against 1st stringers, but so far he's looking one of the best UDFA's JS has had, and that's saying something.

I read it as "teams might pick up our cuts, but we'll then pick up other teams cuts and they'll be better than the players we actually cut."

Yes. 2 things: THe NFL is full of teams that try to force fit players to schemes, and the NFL will always have a lot of turnover in coaching staffs and GMs. Both things lead to a lot of good players that are cheap or free to acquire. Williams Schofield and Brooks were all not that wanted elsewhere, but could be at least replacement level players in Seattle. Those guys will always be out there. And unlike more traditional teams that like to stand pat once they get some guys they want to develop and not ever let see the field anyway, Seattle will give these castoffs an honest shot. Seattle might have a 53 man roster, but it's really been more of a 51 man roster, with those other two spots being up for grabs at all times.

On Ware: The outside zone is easier to read quickly, the tackle and guard hit the DE, then the guard or tackle get to that 2nd level. Especially if you are following your FB. Inside? the gaps are pretty skinny, and a player can't always see if the guard/center disengaged to go to the 2nd level. When Ware runs inside, he looks pretty unsure. His outside zone cuts are decisive. I don't think the inside zone blocks develop as fast, it's generally slower guards blocking bigger linemen. So having the patience to hesitate without stopping, then just go for what you think is a gap is definitely a feel thing. I think Ware will get it, he kind of has that same sideways bounce that Marshawn has where if the gap isn't quite what he thought he can get a little skinny and move a half a gap sideways. Christine isn't patient either, but he is so damn fast he can make it through a narrow crease anyway. First contact will probably knock him down, but it will be 3 yards before first contact. Turbin just runs kind of square. I don't think he gets skinny even when running the outside zone. I think it was Cable who described him as running to darkness. Like he is always planning on hitting someone.

However, I also like Turbin down the field best of them all. I love his wheel routes, and at the end of last year he showed signs of being able to catch those deep wheels. After he dropped a couple of deep throws early in the year I wondered, but he got better. Lynch and Ware really look similar when pass catching in space, and Christine looks to me to be the more dangerous screen guy.