Coaching or QB making Bengals better than Seahawks?

[Jville]

They also have over $40M in cap this season allocated at the QB spot. (Goff's dead money + Stafford's salary.)

We're told over and over it's because of WiLsOn's SaLaRy. Yet the Rams, and 49ers allocated more capspace at QB in 2021, have dumped more resources into QB via picks, and they still have the more talented rosters, top to bottom. Better coaching too. If Wilson were on the Rams or the 49ers they'd be a dynasty.

Yeah if you combine Goff's dead money and Staffords contract the Rams have 44.7 mil tied up in QB or just over 24% of their cap this year. Draft picks is crazy, 5 1st(including the 1st they used to draft Goff), 1 2nd and 1 3rd. To trade up and get Goff when they did and then later to trade him and picks for Stafford.

Some of us classify Goff's dead cap money as ....... dead cap money. Where as, Stafford's current salary is actually payment for quarterback services. But, the Rams skillfully went all in on this season and post season. They used all of the avenues of personnel acquisition and adjustment.

Bills do come due eventually. Glad I'm not a Saints fan.

 

[Elemas]

You guys are really bending over backward fawning over a 10-7 team with an average offense and an average defense.

Seahawks fans should be pissed looking at the Rams.

The Rams traded away draft picks and ended up with Jalen Ramsey, Matt Stafford, and Von Miller. The Seahawks ended up with Face-Pick Adams.

The 2020 Rams had no first-round picks and ended up with Cam Akers and Van Jefferson. They then won a playoff game on the road throwing for less than 190 yards.

The Bengals are a fluke and the Rams are showing how a team can stay competitive with a maxed-out cap.

They also have over $40M in cap this season allocated at the QB spot. (Goff's dead money + Stafford's salary.)

We're told over and over it's because of WiLsOn's SaLaRy. Yet the Rams, and 49ers allocated more capspace at QB in 2021, have dumped more resources into QB via picks, and they still have the more talented rosters, top to bottom. Better coaching too. If Wilson were on the Rams or the 49ers they'd be a dynasty.

Logic…will get you nowhere here.

Spot on Fade.

 

[olyfan63]

To round out the Flowers fairy tale, he will make two interceptions and run one back for TD in the super bowl to seal the game. After Tre Flowers received his super bowl MVP, he will personally post on dot net to thank all our armchair experts, without your urging, he wouldn't have requested the release.

Unlikely, but since it happened for Malcolm Smith, Super Bowl MVP, I suppose anything's possible.

Tre Flowers is a fringe NFL talent who. If there were 10 key S/CB "jobs" a coach would want a DB to do well, e.g., cover a small quick receiver M-M, cover a tall speed receiver M-M on a deep route, cover a TE running a route, come up and tackle in run support, etc. let's say he might do 3 or 4 of those 10 things at a competent NFL level. IIRC, he wasn't bad at run support. The Bengals found that with his length, agility, and reach, he was actually above average at covering TEs.

What did the Bengals D coaching staff do with Flowers? They found the one thing he actually does well, covering TEs, and recognized that this ability matched up with an issue they had on D, of getting exploited by good-receiving TEs. Then they created defensive packages that used him in this area of his strength + their need, and found it was a fit. The Bengals used this package with Flowers in at least two late-season games, including against the Chiefs in their week 16 win over Baltimore and week 17 win over the Chiefs. More than any difference in game outcome, I would argue it's the mindset of Bengals D coaches, looking for any edge in matchups given the players available on their roster.

Coaching or QB? Let's go with... BOTH. KNJ didn't come up with any such creative packages, and had trouble just getting players to execute their fundamental defensive jobs for most of the season. Also, let's not leave out the Bengals GM and front office, they scrambled hard to get any serviceable players available anywhere, including the waiver wire and other teams' practice squads. CB Vernon Hargreaves III, a Texans castoff, for example. Oh, wait, he was inactive for the AFCCG, and the divisional round, so apparently he sucks far worse than Tre Flowers!

Then there's Eli Apple, a castoff FA the Bengals picked up last offseason, IIRC, who got a DPI on him one play to put the Chiefs on the 1 yard line just before halftime, but then a couple plays later, Apple makes the open-field tackle on Tyreek Hill to stuff the Chiefs and deny them any points just before halftime.

QB as well... Joe Burrow had a brilliant game manager outing that built on top of what the Cincy defense and running game made possible. If Russell was 0-for-5 on game-winning drive opportunities this season, Burrow was 1-for-1 in the AFCCG when it mattered. Advantage: Burrow. Best of all, Burrow did what he did at a cap hit of under $8.5M.

So I guess we have to say it's a trifecta--better coaching (on D for sure), better QB, and better GM/Front Office!

Really though, it also shows the winning margins can be so small in the big games, that the Seahawks could actually be closer than anyone thinks. Just imagine that late-season Rashaad Penny run game for a full season and then playoff games.

 

[Spin Doctor]

All of the above. Joe Burrow has played better than Wilson has for the last year and a half. In addition to this, their coaches seemed to maximize the talent they had on their roster better than we have in awhile.

Pete Carroll is a great team manager, but I do think his X's and O's hold the team back from doing anything meaningful in the future. Carroll, to me is a guy that can make bad teams over achieve and good teams under achieve. I don't think we're ever going to have less than 6 wins under Carroll, even with poor QB play. On the other hand I would not be surprised to see the Seahawks not win another playoff game, ever again underneath Carroll.

Tre Flowers is a good example of this. We tend to try and pound square pegs into round holes. Flowers, for example was a big safety in college with stiff hips. In the NFL we moved him to corner and forced him to play in deep zones. Initially he found success, but teams learned that if they matched quick receivers up to Flowers, he was helpless. He excelled at press coverage, but we rarely used that with him. Cincinnati had a clear plan of action with, Flowers. They use him in big nickel packages, and match him up with TE's. He's found quite a bit of success as a role player and overall is a net positive for the Bengals.

Jamal Adams is another case of square peg round hole. We spent significant capital for the guy and had no idea how we were going to use him. 1.5 years after the fact, Carroll admitted to still trying to figure out how they want to use Jamal Adams. That kind of things is unacceptable when you spend two first round picks on a player in a trade.

Overall there seems to be a lack of cohesiveness about how we have been approaching roster building and strategy. Often times it feels like we are smashing our heads against the wall, hoping for something to work. Our choice in coordinators has also been suspect throughout much of the Carroll tenure. Bevell, Schottenheimer, and Norton Jr. were extremely questionable hires given their histories.

I also get the sense the Carroll truly thinks that we are just one impact player away from the Super Bowl. This has led to many band-aid fixes. I also think this was the strategy behind picks such as Eskridge, who were obvious luxury picks. This thought process is what I believe has lead to the Seahawks spending significant draft capital on guys like Adams, Sheldon Richardson and Clowney. What perplexes me though is our lack of movement in the FA, or rather how much of the cap we allocated in the FA to players that are nothing but backup tier.

Our Super Bowl run heavily utilized the FA. Guys such as Bennett, Cliff Avril, Zach Miller, Tony McDaniel were key to our championship.

Now at this point, people may say: what about the Rams? My rebuttal to that is, they've done significantly better in those big trades than we have and they had a clear purpose for each one of those players. This is the issue with Carroll's teams as of lately.

 

[Fade]

I would just like to point out for those that don't know some tidbits ->

In Wilson's down year he still performed at a higher level than most realize including his 3 games that he shouldn't have even played that tanked his numbers.

TD% - 4th
Rodgers
Stafford
Burrow
Wilson

INT% - 4th
Rodgers
Cousins
Wentz ??? (I had no idea, lol.)
Wilson

Y/A - 5th
Burrow
Jimmy G (Kyle Shanahan)
Stafford
Kyler
Wilson

AY/A - 3rd
Burrow
Rodgers
Wilson

Y/C - 4th
Jimmy G (Kyle Shanahan)
Burrow
Stafford
Wilson

ANY/A - 8th
Rodgers
Burrow
Stafford
Cousins
Brady
Jimmy G (Kyle Shanahan)
Dak
Wilson

Passer Rating - 5th
Rodgers
Burrow
Cousins
Dak
Wilson (If Everett could catch, 3rd.)


Lumping Wilson in with how bad Pete has been at making adjustments, setting up players to fail, just basic scheming at times, is laughable. If PC was 5th best at his job right now they would have a whole cabinet full of Super Bowls. Pete just had his worst season on defense (scheme wise) since coming to the Seahawks. A lot of it was probably delegating too much to Norton, but that was his fault for doing such an insane thing in the first place.

Ken Norton at DC for 4 years, and trading the farm for Jamal Adams, undid so much of his legacy if Pete doesn't turn it around real quick (like by next season quick). It will be forever tarnished. Think Mike McCarthy with the Packers. He won a Superbowl early, but the 2nd half of his run with then tarnished it.

The one player keeping the Seahawks from becoming the Lions is Wilson. People are putting way too much weight on the first 3 games back from injury, where he did indeed look terrible, but yet in still he finished in the top 5 in a lot of categories. Despite the offensive issues that cropped up during the year they still finished 7th in total Offensive DVOA.

The offense will be unbelievable next year if they can get the O-Line right, and have some semblance of a running game to keep teams honest as you saw at the end of the year. But that is the problem. The team has had issues off-season after off-season, most don't get fixed and then more problems crop up.

They've been playing musical chairs at RB since Marshawn retired. O-Line? They haven't gotten Center right since cutting Britt years ago. LG? It's been a revolving door the entire Pete Carroll era. They screw around scheme wise to the point Dunlap has to go to them and tell them they're using him wrong. Tre Flowers at outside Corner. Turn Jamal Adams into a High Safety when he is the best box safety in the NFL.

Which piggybacks into compiling their problems further by trading away 1st round picks for talented players who make big money and could be real assets but they don't know how to use. Carroll literally said earlier this season "That they're still trying to figure out how to use him." What a joke.

Meanhwile the Rams have spent FIVE 1st round picks and a 3rd in total to get both Goff & Stafford and they are spending 25% of their cap at QB and are going to the Superbowl. How is this possible?

They make better trades. They draft better players. They make better deals in Free Agency. AND they have better coaching.

I said all of that to say this:

Burrow on the Hawks missing 3.5 games and coming back too early for 3 more would've netted similar results. Going from an offensive coach in Cincy to Pete gimps him. Burrow loves to hold the ball, holds it longer than Wilson. I would love to see how that would go down on here.

 

[chris98251]

Both . Every team has the ebb and tide . It's the Moon's fault .

Warren retired some time ago, can't blame him now.

 

[Tokadub]

I don't think you can say either one.

I think there is a VERY strong case that lately the Seahawks coaching is "out coached" in over 75% of plays. That's reasonable to make that conclusion based on the eyeball test of an average fan.

So I would come to the most basic conclusion that we are in fact out coached on average.

That's not to say Pete is a bad coach, but these past few years his younger peers are making him look foolish and outdated imo.

I think Wilson is as good as Joe Burrow but one team has something to prove and a world to live for... the Seahawks are like dying in the corner... depressing as **** for any pet owner who has seen their animal die like this.

Conclusion:

We are very most definitely out coached.

We are very most definitely in trouble.

We still have a great QB.

Get your shit together and we can make it to the Superbowl.

I think we have about a 20% chance to do that with Pete Carroll compared to a hungry young coach. Pete prove me wrong please.

Get that $60,000,000 of cap space open to begin with...

GET THOSE VOID YEARS... DK should have like $15,000,000 in his void year in 4 years if you want to win...

DO YOUR JOB!

 

[Tokadub]

The Bengals are in the SB because they're an extremely talented young team with a rising QB on his rookie contract which allowed them to go spend a bunch of money in free agency to round out their roster.

They also got lucky with all three teams in their division having down years.

Remember those days Hawk fans, when we had a rising young QB on his rookie contract and there were no good teams in our division, or at worst one good team?

It ALL matters to get to a SB.

Exactly this.

All that being said, to the OPs question, I'd look at it as whether what's bringing their team success is the talent of the young QB or the coaching. The comparison to Seattle would have been in Pete's early years. Hard to compare the two given where they are in their respective periods of development. I think the answer is that it's a combination of great coaching / harnessing the talent of a young team and scheming a way to maximize the ability of a gifted young QB while minimizing his flaws.

They've got a good thing going over there. Lightning in a Bottle. Very much like the 2012, 2013 hawks.

Wonder what Dunlap is feeling right now. Or for that matter, G Atkins...

Or... Tre Flowers. Sheesh. Talk about fortunes flipping.

There is no reason that Russell Wilson with a good coaching staff and management should not be in the Conference finals EVERY YEAR.

Russell IS THAT GOOD!

That is why I was hoping Pete Carroll would resign this offseason... we are in for more mediocrity without some miracle...

LITERALLY A MIRACLE IS REQUIRED FOR PETE CARROLL to make another Super Bowl.

Carroll does not do ANYTHING anymore to make his team good. He just rest on his lorals and those didn't work since 2014.

 

[Jville]

The Bengals are in the SB because they're an extremely talented young team with a rising QB on his rookie contract which allowed them to go spend a bunch of money in free agency to round out their roster.

They also got lucky with all three teams in their division having down years.

Remember those days Hawk fans, when we had a rising young QB on his rookie contract and there were no good teams in our division, or at worst one good team?

It ALL matters to get to a SB.

Exactly this.

All that being said, to the OPs question, I'd look at it as whether what's bringing their team success is the talent of the young QB or the coaching. The comparison to Seattle would have been in Pete's early years. Hard to compare the two given where they are in their respective periods of development. I think the answer is that it's a combination of great coaching / harnessing the talent of a young team and scheming a way to maximize the ability of a gifted young QB while minimizing his flaws.

They've got a good thing going over there. Lightning in a Bottle. Very much like the 2012, 2013 hawks.

Wonder what Dunlap is feeling right now. Or for that matter, G Atkins...

Or... Tre Flowers. Sheesh. Talk about fortunes flipping.

There is no reason that Russell Wilson with a good coaching staff and management should not be in the Conference finals EVERY YEAR.

Russell IS THAT GOOD!

That is why I was hoping Pete Carroll would resign this offseason... we are in for more mediocrity without some miracle...

LITERALLY A MIRACLE IS REQUIRED FOR PETE CARROLL to make another Super Bowl.

Carroll does not do ANYTHING anymore to make his team good. He just rest on his lorals and those didn't work since 2014.

Wow ................. while the forum is open to all who come, we do see these contrasting posts between those who possess good command of disappointments and others who are overwhelmed and consumed by their disappointments.

But, I suppose there is some entertainment to be found in that.

 

[JayhawkMike]

The Bengals are in the SB because they're an extremely talented young team with a rising QB on his rookie contract which allowed them to go spend a bunch of money in free agency to round out their roster.

They also got lucky with all three teams in their division having down years.

Remember those days Hawk fans, when we had a rising young QB on his rookie contract and there were no good teams in our division, or at worst one good team?

It ALL matters to get to a SB.

Exactly this.

All that being said, to the OPs question, I'd look at it as whether what's bringing their team success is the talent of the young QB or the coaching. The comparison to Seattle would have been in Pete's early years. Hard to compare the two given where they are in their respective periods of development. I think the answer is that it's a combination of great coaching / harnessing the talent of a young team and scheming a way to maximize the ability of a gifted young QB while minimizing his flaws.

They've got a good thing going over there. Lightning in a Bottle. Very much like the 2012, 2013 hawks.

Wonder what Dunlap is feeling right now. Or for that matter, G Atkins...

Or... Tre Flowers. Sheesh. Talk about fortunes flipping.

There is no reason that Russell Wilson with a good coaching staff and management should not be in the Conference finals EVERY YEAR.

Russell IS THAT GOOD!

That is why I was hoping Pete Carroll would resign this offseason... we are in for more mediocrity without some miracle...

LITERALLY A MIRACLE IS REQUIRED FOR PETE CARROLL to make another Super Bowl.

Carroll does not do ANYTHING anymore to make his team good. He just rest on his lorals and those didn't work since 2014.

Wow ................. while the forum is open to all who come, we do see these contrasting posts between those who possess good command of disappointments and others who are overwhelmed and consumed by their disappointments.

But, I suppose there is some entertainment to be found in that.

It’s not the first car that cuts you off in traffic that really ticks you off. But by the time you’ve been cut off Five times you’ve had enough. Many here have had enough.

 

[toffee]

Exactly this.

All that being said, to the OPs question, I'd look at it as whether what's bringing their team success is the talent of the young QB or the coaching. The comparison to Seattle would have been in Pete's early years. Hard to compare the two given where they are in their respective periods of development. I think the answer is that it's a combination of great coaching / harnessing the talent of a young team and scheming a way to maximize the ability of a gifted young QB while minimizing his flaws.

They've got a good thing going over there. Lightning in a Bottle. Very much like the 2012, 2013 hawks.

Wonder what Dunlap is feeling right now. Or for that matter, G Atkins...

Or... Tre Flowers. Sheesh. Talk about fortunes flipping.

There is no reason that Russell Wilson with a good coaching staff and management should not be in the Conference finals EVERY YEAR.

Russell IS THAT GOOD!

That is why I was hoping Pete Carroll would resign this offseason... we are in for more mediocrity without some miracle...

LITERALLY A MIRACLE IS REQUIRED FOR PETE CARROLL to make another Super Bowl.

Carroll does not do ANYTHING anymore to make his team good. He just rest on his lorals and those didn't work since 2014.

Wow ................. while the forum is open to all who come, we do see these contrasting posts between those who possess good command of disappointments and others who are overwhelmed and consumed by their disappointments.

But, I suppose there is some entertainment to be found in that.

It’s not the first car that cuts you off in traffic that really ticks you off. But by the time you’ve been cut off Five times you’ve had enough. Many here have had enough.

Here on Dot Net:

Any other HC in the league is better than ole Pete.
No other QB in the league is as good as Russ.

End of story.

 

[TwistedHusky]

I pointed out the issue with how the Bengals intelligently used Flowers to shut down TEs (not just TEs, but good TEs), 1 or 2 games after the Bengals first used him.

I got a lot of sneers about so what, it just being the Bengals.

But if you don't believe that the Bengals coach is not clearly better than Pete, not sure what you are not seeing.


Pete has never been an Xs and Os guy. Ever. Not even sure he was ever even that good of a coach at tactics/strategy. (In some ways he might even be a tactical moron) So being a better 'coach' than Pete isn't some high bar.


What Pete IS great at? Pete is an exceptional roster builder, developer and motivator.

To be fair, he also used to be tremendous at using players in ways that highlight their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. But those days seem long gone. It feels like the motivator/leader thing is all he has left.

So figuring out how to use Flowers effectively as a fantastic defender against TEs wasn't going to happen. Even though TEs kill us again & again. The Bengals saw the possibility though.

Bengals clearly have a better coaching staff than we do, but again - not a high bar to cross though.



Is the QB better? Harder question to answer. Probably not, but they use their guy better. And their OL is better, even though it isn't good.

Wilson would clearly have a better shot on the Bengals vs here. But it is a weird comparison.

 

[ivotuk]

It's the years of losing in Cincinnati,. and the early 1st round draft picks...like #1 Overall...

Just like SF built their defense, early 1st round selections.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

What are you talking about Toffee? Half the people on here want him traded or don't think he's that great.
Worst description of dot negative ever.
Pete is a good coach, it's just time for a change. That somehow means someone hates him and that all other coaches would be just fine here? Um........ok

Now I've heard it all, dot net loves Russ :roll:

 

[Jville]

There is no reason that Russell Wilson with a good coaching staff and management should not be in the Conference finals EVERY YEAR.

Russell IS THAT GOOD!

That is why I was hoping Pete Carroll would resign this offseason... we are in for more mediocrity without some miracle...

LITERALLY A MIRACLE IS REQUIRED FOR PETE CARROLL to make another Super Bowl.

Carroll does not do ANYTHING anymore to make his team good. He just rest on his lorals and those didn't work since 2014.

Wow ................. while the forum is open to all who come, we do see these contrasting posts between those who possess good command of disappointments and others who are overwhelmed and consumed by their disappointments.

But, I suppose there is some entertainment to be found in that.

It’s not the first car that cuts you off in traffic that really ticks you off. But by the time you’ve been cut off Five times you’ve had enough. Many here have had enough.

Here on Dot Net:

Any other HC in the league is better than ole Pete.
No other QB in the league is as good as Russ.

End of story.

A concise blame summary.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Not really at all, but he does have a good point about Pete.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Tre Flowers is the Seahawks problems personified.

Yep

 

[John63]

The reality is PC is not a good X and O person, he knows what he wants and does not care if it does not work or if the personnel does not matches it.

That said What PC is and perhaps the best in the NFL is as a motivator. Unfortunately, he is not willing to just do that and allow his OC and DC to do their jobs.

 

[Jville]

The reality is PC is not a good X and O person, he knows what he wants and does not care if it doe not work or if the personnel does not matches it.

That said What PC is and perhaps the best in the NFL is as a motivator. Unfortunately, he is not willing to just do that and allow his OC and DC to do their jobs.

Says who????? Anyone sitting in on VMAC meetings?

I keep reading about X's and O's on a forum that never actually discusses X's and O's.

 

[John63]

The reality is PC is not a good X and O person, he knows what he wants and does not care if it doe not work or if the personnel does not matches it.

That said What PC is and perhaps the best in the NFL is as a motivator. Unfortunately, he is not willing to just do that and allow his OC and DC to do their jobs.

Says who????? Anyone sitting in on VMAC meetings?

I keep reading about X's and O's on a forum that never actually discusses X's and O's.

Try listening to the KJ Wright interview. Listen to the season-ending wrap-up by the guys doing the KJ wright interview. Listen to what Greg Olsen said I can go on. Read PCs Book.