Can Russel Wilson become an Elite pocket passer?

[-The Glove-]

I'm hearing a lot of "what if RW had teams like Manning, Brady, etc". Really? Did they not have outstanding defenses and playmakers? This reminds me of Marshall Faulk saying something like "look how Brady's done when he's had to do it on his own. Manning has been doing it his whole career." Let's just forget about the fact they've had Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Corey Dillon, Edgerrin James, Bob Sanders, Dwight Freeney, Rodney Harrison, Logan Mankins, Ty Law, Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, Richard Seymour, Robert Mathis, Dallas Clark, etc. Neither has had a top defense right?

No denying they had great teams, but the premise isn't about what they did there, it was about what they could do here in place. At least that was the notion for the point I think you're trying to talk about? And like I said earlier, we don't know for certain, but in my opinion I think it would at least be similar.

What they can do here? Without the ability to buy time, they'd look like Manning in the SB quite often with the revolving door at OL. You/others say the D allows RW to not have to do as much but don't take into account that the OL actually asks him to do way more. As much as I love our receivers, they don't excel at getting separation quickly.

Manning's oline isn't great either (especially after Clady went down), it's his quick release. Maybe it's how he runs his offense that helps gets receivers opens with picks,etc. I don't know and I'm not acting like I do. Again, it's opinion and I don't think Wilson is the only guy in the world that could run this team.

It doesn't hurt to have the best receiving corps in the game

 

[dontbelikethat]

YOUR DELLUSIONAL none of them would have survived the year. You just blew any credibility you had with this statement.

So glad you were able to take that underhand softball lob and knock it out of the park.

How great is their olines? Rodgers has a terrible oline, Manning's oline is pretty bad but his quick release covers up a lot of it imo, Brees & Brady got a pretty good line though. I'll give you that I didn't really recognize/give credit to Wilson for the extra that he has to do behind our line, but then I think it's fair that Manning,etc. gets the same credit because we just don't know how much they mask.

 

[dontbelikethat]

Manning's oline isn't great either (especially after Clady went down), it's his quick release. Maybe it's how he runs his offense that helps gets receivers opens with picks,etc. I don't know and I'm not acting like I do. Again, it's opinion and I don't think Wilson is the only guy in the world that could run this team.

It doesn't hurt to have the best receiving corps in the game

How much did Manning play a factor into that?

 

[-The Glove-]

Manning's oline isn't great either (especially after Clady went down), it's his quick release. Maybe it's how he runs his offense that helps gets receivers opens with picks,etc. I don't know and I'm not acting like I do. Again, it's opinion and I don't think Wilson is the only guy in the world that could run this team.

It doesn't hurt to have the best receiving corps in the game

How much did Manning play a factor into that?

Quite a bit. Just like RW played a huge hand in 2 undrafteds and a previously 2nd round bust according to many becoming consistent playmakers.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

That's a copout because the quarterback position is the most dependent on his team in any sport that is relevant to the discussion. And between the current top 4 and Wilson every last one beyond Rodgers would be seriously injured to the level of career ending while if you reversed the positions Wilson as quarterback on THEIR team would still have won the Superbowl except possibly New England and even that's arguable.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Manning's oline isn't great either (especially after Clady went down), it's his quick release. Maybe it's how he runs his offense that helps gets receivers opens with picks,etc. I don't know and I'm not acting like I do. Again, it's opinion and I don't think Wilson is the only guy in the world that could run this team.

It doesn't hurt to have the best receiving corps in the game

How much did Manning play a factor into that?

He handpicked Denver BECAUSE of their wide receiver corps. Tebow couldn't throw the ball.

 

[Lady Talon]

Peyton and Tom's quick release is exactly what Pete would cancel out with his insistence on explosive plays and time intensive deep routes. They aren't just stuck with our offense and defense, they're also going to be limited by our coaching philosophy.

Newton, Rodgers, Brees maybe could have played us into a #1 seed, through the playoffs and to a Super Bowl win.

I don't trust any of the others to do it with our team. Either they lack the skill, are turnover machines, or just plain wouldn't survive behind our OL.

 

[nsport]

YOUR DELLUSIONAL none of them would have survived the year. You just blew any credibility you had with this statement.

So glad you were able to take that underhand softball lob and knock it out of the park.

How great is their olines? Rodgers has a terrible oline, Manning's oline is pretty bad but his quick release covers up a lot of it imo, Brees & Brady got a pretty good line though. I'll give you that I didn't really recognize/give credit to Wilson for the extra that he has to do behind our line, but then I think it's fair that Manning,etc. gets the same credit because we just don't know how much they mask.

Thx - and sorry if you're feeling overwhelmed by the Wilson lovers - I am one of them obviously. I just think it is a bit painful to watch the continuous defense of Brees, Manning, Brady, Rodgers as though they are so elite. Recall they do not do things 100% on their own. I think it is a very reasonable statement in our "put this guy here and there" arguments that Wilson is one of the few who could have guided this team to the greatness this year. Perhaps one of the career 4000+ passing QB's could have - but most of us disagree on the wholesale swapout of any "great" that could do what Wilson did this year. In addition, I really disagree with the mentality that after 2 years and more wins than any other QB in history at this point that he cannot be easily labeled as elite. In fact, I could easily add that he did more with less - especially considering injuries, lack of OL depth, and so on. I doubt you will convince anyone otherwise on this entire forum actually. It is entirely more plausible to label Wilson as LEGENDARY - even more so than the 4 greats, plus the other contemporary greats (such as Roethlisberger, Flacco, etc.)

 

[dontbelikethat]

Manning's oline isn't great either (especially after Clady went down), it's his quick release. Maybe it's how he runs his offense that helps gets receivers opens with picks,etc. I don't know and I'm not acting like I do. Again, it's opinion and I don't think Wilson is the only guy in the world that could run this team.

It doesn't hurt to have the best receiving corps in the game

How much did Manning play a factor into that?

Quite a bit. Just like RW played a huge hand in 2 undrafteds and a previously 2nd round bust according to many becoming consistent playmakers.

I understand that and I give him credit for that, never said he didn't play a part in how great this team was. He definitely makes a huge huge impact on our team obviously.

 

[dontbelikethat]

Manning's oline isn't great either (especially after Clady went down), it's his quick release. Maybe it's how he runs his offense that helps gets receivers opens with picks,etc. I don't know and I'm not acting like I do. Again, it's opinion and I don't think Wilson is the only guy in the world that could run this team.

It doesn't hurt to have the best receiving corps in the game

How much did Manning play a factor into that?

He handpicked Denver BECAUSE of their wide receiver corps. Tebow couldn't throw the ball.

Just sayin', no one was calling them the best in the game before he got there.

 

[dontbelikethat]

Peyton and Tom's quick release is exactly what Pete would cancel out with his insistence on explosive plays and time intensive deep routes. They aren't just stuck with our offense and defense, they're also going to be limited by our coaching philosophy.

Newton, Rodgers, Brees maybe could have played us into a #1 seed, through the playoffs and to a Super Bowl win.

I don't trust any of the others to do it with our team. Either they lack the skill, are turnover machines, or just plain wouldn't survive behind our OL.

I understand and I couldn't tell you one way or the other obviously because we just don't know. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Pure advanced metrics and actual play put him at LEAST number 5. Give him another Lombardi and tears will flow and they will taste delicious.

 

[dontbelikethat]

YOUR DELLUSIONAL none of them would have survived the year. You just blew any credibility you had with this statement.

So glad you were able to take that underhand softball lob and knock it out of the park.

How great is their olines? Rodgers has a terrible oline, Manning's oline is pretty bad but his quick release covers up a lot of it imo, Brees & Brady got a pretty good line though. I'll give you that I didn't really recognize/give credit to Wilson for the extra that he has to do behind our line, but then I think it's fair that Manning,etc. gets the same credit because we just don't know how much they mask.

Thx - and sorry if you're feeling overwhelmed by the Wilson lovers - I am one of them obviously. I just think it is a bit painful to watch the continuous defense of Brees, Manning, Brady, Rodgers as though they are so elite. Recall they do not do things 100% on their own. I think it is a very reasonable statement in our "put this guy here and there" arguments that Wilson is one of the few who could have guided this team to the greatness this year. Perhaps one of the career 4000+ passing QB's could have - but most of us disagree on the wholesale swapout of any "great" that could do what Wilson did this year. In addition, I really disagree with the mentality that after 2 years and more wins than any other QB in history at this point that he cannot be easily labeled as elite. In fact, I could easily add that he did more with less - especially considering injuries, lack of OL depth, and so on. I doubt you will convince anyone otherwise on this entire forum actually. It is entirely more plausible to label Wilson as LEGENDARY - even more so than the 4 greats, plus the other contemporary greats (such as Roethlisberger, Flacco, etc.)

Haha, it's alright, I kind of knew what I was getting into and I wasn't trying to change anyone's opinion, just stating mines and I understand why people disagree. Spent a little to much time on the global NFL forums I guess lol.

 

[dontbelikethat]

Pure advanced metrics and actual play put him at LEAST number 5. Give him another Lombardi and tears will flow and they will taste delicious.

It's only a matter of time before he gets another one and another million plus can celebrate.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

True about Denver's receivers but it was the reason Tebow is an announcer and not a football player.

 

[dontbelikethat]

We've seen where we were with a good defense and mediocre QB play. 7-9. So you have to ask yourself, who carries who? Was the 2012 defense so outstanding it equated to +4 wins on it's own?

If not, what else dragged us out of mediocrity?

Wanted to address this one last thing before I leave this thread forever since I failed to do so earlier lol. Very good point. No denying Wilson is the biggest change to the team that made them jump to what it is now. It was 2011 that they went 7-9 though and also pretty much the first year the LOB was set up(Sherm's first year, BB's first year, and a lot of people bashed the DLine for never getting pressure, the LB's we have now weren't even on the team in 2011, I mean Kelly Jennings was still on the team at that point), although they were still very good. But Wilson was definitely(and obviously) the biggest causation to the correlation of team success, no arguing that, it's just that Idk if he's the only QB that can do it or if Manning,Brady,etc. could do it as well.

 

[Anthony!]

We've seen where we were with a good defense and mediocre QB play. 7-9. So you have to ask yourself, who carries who? Was the 2012 defense so outstanding it equated to +4 wins on it's own?

If not, what else dragged us out of mediocrity?

Wanted to address this one last thing before I leave this thread forever since I failed to do so earlier lol. Very good point. No denying Wilson is the biggest change to the team that made them jump to what it is now. It was 2011 that they went 7-9 though and also pretty much the first year the LOB was set up(Sherm's first year, BB's first year, and a lot of people bashed the DLine for never getting pressure, the LB's we have now weren't even on the team in 2011, I mean Kelly Jennings was still on the team at that point), although they were still very good. But Wilson was definitely(and obviously) the biggest causation to the correlation of team success, no arguing that, it's just that Idk if he's the only QB that can do it or if Manning,Brady,etc. could do it as well.

The same could be said about what Manning did, what Brees does, etc. For me I know Manning and Brady would not have led this team to the SB, main reason O-line and the fact this team is not built on passing but instead on running, and that running includes our QB and his over 500 yards running. Now Brees I question him as well given he does not run much any more and as for Rodgers, yeah no. RW was the most hit, hurried and sacked QB in the league, I do not care how quick your release is, if no one is open your done, you cannot run with this o-line your done. Maybe the real qualifier is not your Elite if you can throw form a perfect pocket but your elite if when the pocket breaks down you can still make something happen, answer yes RW can. Your top 4 only one can, the other 3 no.

 

[chrispy]

He's as elite as Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson.

If Wilson left the game today, he'd be remembered for winning the SuperBowl with an elite defense. That's probably unfair, but we all know it's true. There would be times where some of his other accomplishments would come up but that's how he'd be remembered.

When you think of the QBs that you'd rank as among-the-best-to-ever-play-the-game, none of them had only 2 good seasons. So there's no way anyone can call RW elite today. I think there's every reasonable expectation that he'll be remembered in a very short list and that he might get there sooner than anyone could have guessed. But how can anyone say he's already there?

If you want to define "elite" as among-the-best-that-are-currently-playing, I think it's easy to say most teams would take him. It's probably safe to say every team would take him if you include his current salary. But that's a cop-out answer and there's still a lot to argue on both sides. It's been pointed out that RW played hurt for a lot of this season. Depending on how much truth there is here, we could see a positive step-change in his production. He could be a lot better next year. On the other hand, some amount of RW's value is in his salary. It allows a lot of talent in other areas. Can RW carry the team when his salary takes up 15% of the cap space and there's no room for those other pieces? It's not a mistake that highly paid QBs have higher paid OLines- You protect your investment. How can he carry the team when we can't afford a D like the current? We can only guess.

To be truly elite, I think you have to outperform your peers. Right now, RW has outperformed everyone that has entered the league within the last 5 years. But really, all you can truly say, is that he's had a great 2 years. How can that make him elite?

 

[blazen2392]

You named 3 games and 8 comebacks if you can go on and on, please name them, and all those comebacks are not solely on him and I'm not saying it has to be, but how much was he a factor in all of them? You also have to take things into context, were we possibly losing early possibly because of his play and our D kept us in the game and then Wilson made a final drive that was well but played poorly through out the game or was it the D that kept giving up points and Wilson was dueling it out scoring a ton? I can't say for certain one thing or another. Also like I said, he is incredibly efficient (high rating) and he is definitely a good pocket passer, but at times he's been a bit off his game this year (both STL,2nd NO game,both SF,HOU,NYG,2nd ARZ game). You can blame it on the OLine or give credit to their defenses, but it's the same thing when you judge another QB playing our defense. Passing yards =/= elite, but it gives a little bit of an indication how the offensive is rolling and it's not a sole way to judge someone, but that along with the eye test seems like Wilson is just leaving a little bit more to be desired. I'm not saying we're winning in spite of him and he definitely contributes to wins obviously, but I'm just not sure we could consistently rely on him if our defense wasn't so good AS OF RIGHT NOW. I hope he does that next step and it definitely looks like he will, but I just don't know if he is that good right now. Some of you guys take it as such a slight to Wilson if we don't call him elite even though I said he was a tier right under elite. Dude is in his second year and almost as good as some of the GOAT which is amazing in itself. I just want to see him be able to do it little longer and see him do it after his big pay day when he pretty much has to always take over.

You see I do not have to name more I named enough, and you still have nothing to support you other than yards, I showed how Rw has outplayed Brady, played as well as Brees and those are 2 of your so called elite. As to we are possible loosing early because of his play, really even you cannot be that much of a hater. Basically you have nothing but what you want and think while the rest of us have facts. So tell you what believe what you want, don't let the facts get in the way. The rest of us in the real world will know he is already Elite and will get better.

i don't understand how people can use stats as if it proves everything there is to know, no questions asked. your using stats to make an A+B=C argument which is never the case. Example Eli has more rings than Peyton therefore Eli>peyton...

I could look at stats on paper and consider Denvers offensive line to be best in the league. Stats make very average running backs like Knowshown Moreno seem like hes as good as a running back as marshawn lynch. I laugh everytime i hear him reffered to as a "weapon". Even Eric decker who i consider a very midtier receiver benefits from stat inflation.

a lot of Peyton TD's and yards this season look so good on paper. If you see him play a good chunk of those yards are from screens and short throws turned into 40 yard gains from DT. One might conclude from stats that he has the best and most accurate arm in the NFL.

Now by no means am i saying russell is feasting on stat inflation, but he still has not proven anything being a 2nd year quarterback and that is where we don't see eye to eye. You can say he has a ring which is a phenomenal accomplishment, but flacco has a ring and hes not a great QB. Kapernick almost had a ring and hes awful. Your making a case that some of us are just simply choosing to ignore stats and knock all his accomplishments because he plays for a better team. you can only judge how good someone is from actually watching them and then analyzing stats. I've seen Joe montana's stats on paper, but i could never make an argument of him being the greatest QB of all time like some can, because i didn't grow up in that era and have little knowledge of how he played. For all i know hes success was probably tied to Jerry rice but hey i dont know.

I guess we are in a way arguing semantics here because from my point of view ii haven't seen "elitness" from russell yet. To me he has not been tested like a lot of other QB's have (Even some of the younger crowd QBs like Cam have been tested more than Russel has). At the end of the day he is a great QB, but he has still proven nothing for me to consider him elite. He has proven everything that he is capable of being seattle's franchise QB.

Take Sherman and Peterson for example, the two best CBs in the league. Sherman is asked to shut down one side of the field and plays with the best secondary ever assembled in NFL history. He is not asked to do as much as Peterson ie shadow the number one. Its unfair to Peterson to call Sherman the best until sherman is asked to do as much as peterson, so we can judge them on a level playing field. But regardless of that, i would still consider sherman a MUCH better CB than peterson, and not because of Gawdy Pick V pass thrown stats. At the end of the day Sherman plays with sheer intelligence while Peterson plays with raw athleticism. This league has shown that intelligent player dominate for the most part. It shows on the field when each of them play and if i was a betting man i would always put my money on sherman having the longest most productive career out of these new era of CBs. I could not confidently do this with russell YET.

 

[Anthony!]

He's as elite as Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson.

If Wilson left the game today, he'd be remembered for winning the SuperBowl with an elite defense. That's probably unfair, but we all know it's true. There would be times where some of his other accomplishments would come up but that's how he'd be remembered.

When you think of the QBs that you'd rank as among-the-best-to-ever-play-the-game, none of them had only 2 good seasons. So there's no way anyone can call RW elite today. I think there's every reasonable expectation that he'll be remembered in a very short list and that he might get there sooner than anyone could have guessed. But how can anyone say he's already there?

If you want to define "elite" as among-the-best-that-are-currently-playing, I think it's easy to say most teams would take him. It's probably safe to say every team would take him if you include his current salary. But that's a cop-out answer and there's still a lot to argue on both sides. It's been pointed out that RW played hurt for a lot of this season. Depending on how much truth there is here, we could see a positive step-change in his production. He could be a lot better next year. On the other hand, some amount of RW's value is in his salary. It allows a lot of talent in other areas. Can RW carry the team when his salary takes up 15% of the cap space and there's no room for those other pieces? It's not a mistake that highly paid QBs have higher paid OLines- You protect your investment. How can he carry the team when we can't afford a D like the current? We can only guess.

To be truly elite, I think you have to outperform your peers. Right now, RW has outperformed everyone that has entered the league within the last 5 years. But really, all you can truly say, is that he's had a great 2 years. How can that make him elite?

That's a good point when I talk Elite I am talking now, not ever as he has not played long enough for that, But he is amongst the Elite that are playing now.