Bruce Irvin was a reach

[ImTheScientist]

calling a rookie player a reach after one season in which he led all rookies in sacks



is a reach.

:13:

 

[Atradees]

I dont think Bruce has been utilized to his maximum potential. I would like to see him in the Chaos role where he
lines up all over the place. Its less predictable and I think you need that with an undersized guy.

 

[manders2600]

Irvin is now 26 years old, so it's not like he's going to add a bunch of size or speed. He had 8 sacks, but 2 each came against the Packers, Panthers, and Jets. There was only one other game in which he had a whole sack, and that was Arizona. Other than that, he disappeared, and only had 18 total tackles all year, which is atrocious.

The #15 overall pick needs to be more than a situational pass rusher who only has success against bad offensive lines, in order to justify being selected that high.

 

[12thMan1]

Just because Aldon Smith became a force (thanks to Justin Smith) doesn't mean every rookie DE is going to come into the league and make hay. Irvin will continue to work and develop.

In addtion, the thing you have to remember about Aldon Smith is that he didn't have his breakout season until his Sophomore year. I think he only had 3 or 4 sacks his rookie year. How often do defensive rookies come into the league and make a consistent difference? I still have high hopes for him. He will work and develop for sure.

That's not true. He had 14 sacks as rookie and 19.5 as a 2nd year player.

His 2nd year will be huge. Remember a couple years back the G-Men take Jason Peirre Paul (right around the same pick as Irvin) He was called a reach because he was an athlete, but was raw. His first year he has 6.5 sacks. His 2nd year he exploded to 16.5 sacks.

I would expect Irvin to pack on 5 more pounds of muscle and to really develop in his 2nd year. 9 sacks for a rookie (including playoffs- is pretty darn good).

Thanks for the correction jlwaters1. I was actually thinking of JPP but for some reason typed Aldon Smith.

 

[v1rotv2]

My guess is that Irvin will have shaken off all that college stuff and improve in his second year. Like mentioned above he'll gain a bit of weight and speed as well as technique. I'll be surprised if he isn't in the double digit sack totals next year.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I need to see Irvin for a few more years to see how he develops before calling him a reach.

Eight sacks in his rookie year is a nice start, but yes he needs to develop his game to become more of an every down DE before I'll consider him a good pick for where he went in the draft. It was clearly evident yesterday that he wasn't ready to carry the load.

 

[grizbob]

and here comes the offseason.......

Its not official until someone starts a uniform thread.

OK, my jersey looks better than yours cause I'm in it :mrgreen:

 

[Chawker]

Irvin playing behind Clemons in a OLBer role would be very scary for any QB.

 

[Starrman44]

Irvin is now 26 years old, so it's not like he's going to add a bunch of size or speed. He had 8 sacks, but 2 each came against the Packers, Panthers, and Jets. There was only one other game in which he had a whole sack, and that was Arizona. Other than that, he disappeared, and only had 18 total tackles all year, which is atrocious.

The #15 overall pick needs to be more than a situational pass rusher who only has success against bad offensive lines, in order to justify being selected that high.

Actually, he could put on size. I know of a lot of people who are adding 10-15 lbs of muscle and they are well above 30 (some are 40+).

He isn't in college any more, so he can dedicate more time (as well as having the money now to dedicate) to working out and studying. I think he certainly can improve.

Also, it may be technique since he is so raw...

 

[manders2600]

Irvin is now 26 years old, so it's not like he's going to add a bunch of size or speed. He had 8 sacks, but 2 each came against the Packers, Panthers, and Jets. There was only one other game in which he had a whole sack, and that was Arizona. Other than that, he disappeared, and only had 18 total tackles all year, which is atrocious.

The #15 overall pick needs to be more than a situational pass rusher who only has success against bad offensive lines, in order to justify being selected that high.

Actually, he could put on size. I know of a lot of people who are adding 10-15 lbs of muscle and they are well above 30 (some are 40+).

He isn't in college any more, so he can dedicate more time (as well as having the money now to dedicate) to working out and studying. I think he certainly can improve.

Also, it may be technique since he is so raw...

A 40 year old guy getting into better shape is a lot different than an NFL player.

Most NFL players do not add size after 24-25 without sacrificing speed. Not saying that he can't ad a little bit of weight, but Irvin is a lot different than a 20-year-old coming out as a junior.

 

[Blitzer88]

calling a rookie player a reach after one season in which he led all rookies in sacks



is a reach.

I agree with this! He will improve.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Is Bruce the whipping boy today? I have a hard time reading half of what gets posted here after a loss.

The majority didn't even want Wilson to play this year....unbelievable.

 

[TheHawkDoc]

Irvin is now 26 years old, so it's not like he's going to add a bunch of size or speed. He had 8 sacks, but 2 each came against the Packers, Panthers, and Jets. There was only one other game in which he had a whole sack, and that was Arizona. Other than that, he disappeared, and only had 18 total tackles all year, which is atrocious.

The #15 overall pick needs to be more than a situational pass rusher who only has success against bad offensive lines, in order to justify being selected that high.

Irvin is 25 years old, he'll be 26 next November. In general, defensive end is one of the most difficult positions in the NFL to come in and play well as a rookie (along with QB and WR). A lot of college DE's rely on 1 or 2 pass rushing moves that they perform very well to get to the QB. In the NFL the OT's are much better and it takes time to develop a more expansive pass rushing repertoire. I hope Irvin can add a little bulk to this frame and builds on what he learned this year during the offseason.

I do agree that he had some games where he was virtually invisible and I thought he played very poorly against the Rams in the home finale but responded by playing very well last week in Washington. He obviously didn't play well yesterday and Carroll's comments were reflective of that.

Obviously I'd have liked him to have an Aldon Smith, Dwight Freeney, or Jevon Kearse type rookie season but those are the exceptions to the rule. Statistically he measures up well with some of the other best current 4-3 Defensive End's rookie seasons and most of those guys played many more snaps than Irvin.

Jared Allen had 9 sacks and 31 total tackles as a rookie. Pierre-Paul - 6.5 sacks. Elvis Dumervil - 8.5 sacks, 17 total tackles. Mario Williams - 4.5 sacks. Tamba Hali - 8 sacks.

 

[ATX_Hawk]

Last year no one really new much about JJ Watt with his 5.5 sacks. Maybe Irvin will come back even better.

 

[manders2600]

Irvin is now 26 years old, so it's not like he's going to add a bunch of size or speed. He had 8 sacks, but 2 each came against the Packers, Panthers, and Jets. There was only one other game in which he had a whole sack, and that was Arizona. Other than that, he disappeared, and only had 18 total tackles all year, which is atrocious.

The #15 overall pick needs to be more than a situational pass rusher who only has success against bad offensive lines, in order to justify being selected that high.

Irvin is 25 years old, he'll be 26 next November. In general, defensive end is one of the most difficult positions in the NFL to come in and play well as a rookie (along with QB and WR). A lot of college DE's rely on 1 or 2 pass rushing moves that they perform very well to get to the QB. In the NFL the OT's are much better and it takes time to develop a more expansive pass rushing repertoire. I hope Irvin can add a little bulk to this frame and builds on what he learned this year during the offseason.

I do agree that he had some games where he was virtually invisible and I thought he played very poorly against the Rams in the home finale but responded by playing very well last week in Washington. He obviously didn't play well yesterday and Carroll's comments were reflective of that.

Obviously I'd have liked him to have an Aldon Smith, Dwight Freeney, or Jevon Kearse type rookie season but those are the exceptions to the rule. Statistically he measures up well with some of the other best current 4-3 Defensive End's rookie seasons and most of those guys played many more snaps than Irvin.

Jared Allen had 9 sacks and 31 total tackles as a rookie. Pierre-Paul - 6.5 sacks. Elvis Dumervil - 8.5 sacks, 17 total tackles. Mario Williams - 4.5 sacks. Tamba Hali - 8 sacks.

First things first, I now am super confused. ESPN has him born January 11, 1987. Wikipedia has it as November 1, 1987, and the Google profile says January 11, 1990. So, I'm pretty sure he's somewhere between 23-26 years old. LOL. Man of mystery.

Now, as for those DE comparisons:

He is nowhere near Mario Williams' size, and will never be that type of player. And while Williams only had 4.5 sacks his rookie year, he had at least one full sack in 4 separate games, playing with a worse supporting cast. He also had 35 tackles, 4 of them behind the line of scrimmage.

Jason Pierre-Paul is an insane athlete, is still younger than Irvin at 24 years old (I'm pretty sure on this one) and still came into the league 25 lbs heavier.

Jared Allen similarly came out 20 lbs heavier, and had at least one whole sack in 7 games, as well as 30 tackles his rookie year.

Tamba Hali also came out of college 30 lbs heavier (at 22 years old), and had at least one whole sack in 7 games, and a pretty solid 61 tackles his rookie year.

 

[TheHawkDoc]

Irvin is now 26 years old, so it's not like he's going to add a bunch of size or speed. He had 8 sacks, but 2 each came against the Packers, Panthers, and Jets. There was only one other game in which he had a whole sack, and that was Arizona. Other than that, he disappeared, and only had 18 total tackles all year, which is atrocious.

The #15 overall pick needs to be more than a situational pass rusher who only has success against bad offensive lines, in order to justify being selected that high.

Irvin is 25 years old, he'll be 26 next November. In general, defensive end is one of the most difficult positions in the NFL to come in and play well as a rookie (along with QB and WR). A lot of college DE's rely on 1 or 2 pass rushing moves that they perform very well to get to the QB. In the NFL the OT's are much better and it takes time to develop a more expansive pass rushing repertoire. I hope Irvin can add a little bulk to this frame and builds on what he learned this year during the offseason.

I do agree that he had some games where he was virtually invisible and I thought he played very poorly against the Rams in the home finale but responded by playing very well last week in Washington. He obviously didn't play well yesterday and Carroll's comments were reflective of that.

Obviously I'd have liked him to have an Aldon Smith, Dwight Freeney, or Jevon Kearse type rookie season but those are the exceptions to the rule. Statistically he measures up well with some of the other best current 4-3 Defensive End's rookie seasons and most of those guys played many more snaps than Irvin.

Jared Allen had 9 sacks and 31 total tackles as a rookie. Pierre-Paul - 6.5 sacks. Elvis Dumervil - 8.5 sacks, 17 total tackles. Mario Williams - 4.5 sacks. Tamba Hali - 8 sacks.

First things first, I now am super confused. ESPN has him born January 11, 1987. Wikipedia has it as November 1, 1987, and the Google profile says January 11, 1990. So, I'm pretty sure he's somewhere between 23-26 years old. LOL. Man of mystery.

Now, as for those DE comparisons:

He is nowhere near Mario Williams' size, and will never be that type of player. And while Williams only had 4.5 sacks his rookie year, he had at least one full sack in 4 separate games, playing with a worse supporting cast. He also had 35 tackles, 4 of them behind the line of scrimmage.

Jason Pierre-Paul is an insane athlete, is still younger than Irvin at 24 years old (I'm pretty sure on this one) and still came into the league 25 lbs heavier.

Jared Allen similarly came out 20 lbs heavier, and had at least one whole sack in 7 games, as well as 30 tackles his rookie year.

Tamba Hali also came out of college 30 lbs heavier (at 22 years old), and had at least one whole sack in 7 games, and a pretty solid 61 tackles his rookie year.

Yeah that's odd that he has different birthdates out there. Seahawks.com has him as being 25 years old.

The point I was trying to make is that even for very good defensive ends they usually don't have great rookie seasons. The majority of those guys played many more snaps and had many more chances to get to the QB than Irvin did. I'm not comparing Irvin's skill-set or body types to any of those players. He's obviously a little leaner than most of those guys. He may never be the most complete defensive end in football but I do think he'll improve as a pass rusher and have several years with 10+ sacks. Clemons was a liability against the run for Oakland and Philadelphia prior to coming here and I actually think he's been very good against the run for us. It just took him a little bit of time to develop into a more complete football player. My hope is that Irvin will continue to improve and do the same with a little seasoning. :thirishdrinkers:

 

[Anonymous]

No, I don't think it was a reach. Irvin should improve, but IMM he will not be effective in an additional role to situational pass rusher.

This off-season, the focus should be on a defensive scheme to combat the Colin Kaepernick pistol/read-option style offense. Whatever personnel are needed to employ that new scheme should be a priority.

 

[canfan]

Unless this kid grows a ton in the off season he will never be anything but a situational pass rusher. he has none of the run stopping skills Clemons has. He had a good season but he is very limited. We need an every down guy. We need a INTERIOR pass rush. Biggest need in the offseason.

Don't forget this is Clem's 5th (?) stop in the NFL. he was only a situational player who "couldn't play the run" before he got here. If you are saying Irvin is a reach because he is very raw and has a lot to learn yet, I would agree. I also think he has a chance to grow into the role of every down back, but if he doesn't, he is still a damn good situational player. If he can bring 8 to 10 sacks a year thats all good. Going forward, I agree we need interior push. Irvin and Clem will both be more effective once QB's know they can't just step up into a clean pocket to avoid the outside rush.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Unless this kid grows a ton in the off season he will never be anything but a situational pass rusher. he has none of the run stopping skills Clemons has. He had a good season but he is very limited. We need an every down guy. We need a INTERIOR pass rush. Biggest need in the offseason.

Read up on "Pete Carroll LEO" .... google it, then rethink.

THanks.

 

[HawkFan72]

Everyone wants Irvin to be Aldon Smith but it should be noted that Aldon Smith had ZERO sacks during the games Justin Smith was out.

Together, Justin Smith and Aldon Smith form the best pass rusher in the league. Apart, they are not nearly as good.