Another Graham thread

[xgeoff]

Frankly, I think Luke is better. Luke seems faster, and the other qualities seem similar. I also think Luke has better upside as he is still learning.

 

[massari]

Graham is on pace to put up similar numbers to what Tate had his last year here. Amazing, in one thread we have people wishing Tate was here, and in another wishing he didn't have Graham because he hasn't been good enough.

Maybe they're seeing that Graham has an average salary of 9M per, while Tate has 6M per.

 

[RiverDog]

The Graham trade is looking worse and worse. On Sunday night, PFF claims that Graham had the worst game of his career, with 3 catches on 8 targets and two drops, and as we all know, the guy couldn't block his shadow. What's he had this season, two TD's and only one TD in the red zone?

In the meantime, Max Unger has started all 10 games for the Saints and their #31 overall, Stephone Anthony, is their starting MLB. No question as who came out holding onto the long end of the stick on that deal, at least to this point.

http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/seah ... secondary/

 

[Barthawk]

As much as I'm not a fan of Collinsworth, he asked a very legitimate question tonight. Why don't we put 3 wrs on one side and Graham on the other and make the defense pick. Seemed like it would have been a good idea on our two point conversion

Like we did on the 2pt conversion. Single coverage on the wide side of the field.. instead the play is a lob to Baldwin in the middle.. 2pt conversion has not penalty other than not getting it.. why not throw it to your 6'7 TE who has single coverage????

 

[SomersetHawk]

Frankly, I think Luke is better. Luke seems faster, and the other qualities seem similar. I also think Luke has better upside as he is still learning.

Luke Willson is never going to be more than a part-time mismatch opportunity. That said, Jimmy Graham isn't working. His impact is weakened by an ailing Beastmode, an O-line that needs all the blocking help it can and ultimately, a risk-adverse offense. He'd be a useful enough weapon split out wide with a serviceable O-line, but at this point I'm taking a 'trade him for an O-lineman/3rd and allocate the funds to the line' stance.

 

[Hawks46]

Has he done anything Luke Willson can't do? Why is he here and taking our money? And is it a sign of poor coordination between the GM and coaches?

I don't think he is taking any of your money! Apparently he can do a lot that Luke Willson can't do, have you looked at the stats? Luke Willson has an occasional decent game, even after a bad game today from Graham he is still on pace to have one of the best seasons ever from a Seahawk TE. Jimmy Graham was great 2 weeks ago in Dallas, amazing how quick he has become the equivalent of Luke Willson.

Bit it seems like his numbers are inflated because we're forcing the ball to him more than we normally would to a TE. It feels like Percy all over again: bring in a stud receiver and break our offense out of shape to force him the ball. Also, every time we've gone to Willson this year, he's been great, or at least as good as Graham.

I don't know, more and more that whole trade looks like a knee-jerk reaction to the goal line play in SB49, like we were looking for someone to win the game in retrospect. I'd much rather have Unger and cap space right now.

When you have an ultra athletic 6'7" TE who has a 7 foot catching radius, you "force" him the ball a bit. That guy is open when he's covered.

Yes, there's been some issues on chemistry and him learning the scramble drill, but if you want to blame someone, look at our QB. I know this is going to get some people's panties in a bunch, but Wilson's short and intermediate pass accuracy has been very poor this year. I'm seeing Baldwin and Lockett continually reaching behind their bodies on slants and crosses to get to the ball. It's no real mystery why our guys don't do well with YAC, as they have to stop or alter their routes to catch the football and the defense catches up to them.

 

[WindCityHawk]

Has he done anything Luke Willson can't do? Why is he here and taking our money? And is it a sign of poor coordination between the GM and coaches?

Honest question: Have you seen how much attention he draws underneath those routes Luke Willson runs?

I haven't noticed, no. I assume it's a substantial amount, just by the fact that you're asking. And credit where credit is due, that's awesome. If that's the case though, then it points to another problem of our other receivers and QB not being able to capitalize on that thinning of the defense. The bottom line, as I see it, is that our offense has profited nothing from acquiring Graham. In fact our red zone offense has actually gotten worse, and our 3rd down conversions are similar at best.

 

[Hasselbeck]

In the meantime, Max Unger has started all 10 games for the Saints and their #31 overall, Stephone Anthony, is their starting MLB. No question as who came out holding onto the long end of the stick on that deal, at least to this point.

See I think this is a stretch. Unger was never going to be on the 2015 roster. Agree or disagree with that decision, this is being reported as fact by numerous people close to the team.

So you have to separate yourself from going "omg look at what Unger is doing!"

Secondly - the FO had determined that the 31st pick had as much value in the 2015 draft as a 2nd rounder. So there is a very real likelihood they would have traded that away in some capacity, whether in a trade back or to get an offensive weapon. So comparing Stephone Anthony to anything is just moot. He wouldn't have been our draft pick even if we stayed at 31.. what he is doing in NO is pretty irrelevant. That's like saying "Wow look at what Teddy Bridgewater is doing compared to Paul Richardson!"

I think what this trade really truly reveals is we have an offensive coordinator that is too rigid in his offensive scheme because this is the second unique game-changing talent we have acquired that he could not figure out how to use. Whatever you think of Percy Harvin the player is irrelevant, the man has skill.. and outside of a kickoff in SB48.. we never really saw it. Jimmy Graham is going down the exact same route, only he's not a jackass so it's a little easier for the locker room to stomach.

But hell - this goes back to even PRE Percy and Graham. Look at what Tate did the moment he left this offense. Look at how Rice and Zach Miller were before they came to Seattle. Yes, this offense isn't extremely pass-oriented but every talented offensive piece thats been added to this team has seen their production fall off a cliff since Darrell Bevell was installed as the offensive coordinator.

That's the damning thing. It's not Graham. It's not whether or not we should have kept Unger.

 

[RiverDog]

In the meantime, Max Unger has started all 10 games for the Saints and their #31 overall, Stephone Anthony, is their starting MLB. No question as who came out holding onto the long end of the stick on that deal, at least to this point.

See I think this is a stretch. Unger was never going to be on the 2015 roster. Agree or disagree with that decision, this is being reported as fact by numerous people close to the team.

So you have to separate yourself from going "omg look at what Unger is doing!"

Secondly - the FO had determined that the 31st pick had as much value in the 2015 draft as a 2nd rounder. So there is a very real likelihood they would have traded that away in some capacity, whether in a trade back or to get an offensive weapon. So comparing Stephone Anthony to anything is just moot. He wouldn't have been our draft pick even if we stayed at 31.. what he is doing in NO is pretty irrelevant. That's like saying "Wow look at what Teddy Bridgewater is doing compared to Paul Richardson!"

I think what this trade really truly reveals is we have an offensive coordinator that is too rigid in his offensive scheme because this is the second unique game-changing talent we have acquired that he could not figure out how to use. Whatever you think of Percy Harvin the player is irrelevant, the man has skill.. and outside of a kickoff in SB48.. we never really saw it. Jimmy Graham is going down the exact same route, only he's not a jackass so it's a little easier for the locker room to stomach.

But hell - this goes back to even PRE Percy and Graham. Look at what Tate did the moment he left this offense. Look at how Rice and Zach Miller were before they came to Seattle. Yes, this offense isn't extremely pass-oriented but every talented offensive piece thats been added to this team has seen their production fall off a cliff since Darrell Bevell was installed as the offensive coordinator.

That's the damning thing. It's not Graham. It's not whether or not we should have kept Unger.

The only reason I noted that Unger had started all 10 games and that Anthony was their starting Mike was to highlight New Orleans side of the deal. From their POV, they made out like a bandit, got two solid starters for the price of one. I understand the irrelevance of Unger/Anthony's performance from our POV.

Otherwise, I like your post. You bring up some really good points. Definitely with Graham and to a lesser degree with Harvin, we are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Graham is not a good blocking tight end, and what are we? A run first offense that has an OL that needs support from their tight ends.

I can't help but wonder if one of the reasons behind the Graham trade was to appease Russell and get him some weapons as a motivation for him to resign.

 

[Siouxhawk]

In the meantime, Max Unger has started all 10 games for the Saints and their #31 overall, Stephone Anthony, is their starting MLB. No question as who came out holding onto the long end of the stick on that deal, at least to this point.

See I think this is a stretch. Unger was never going to be on the 2015 roster. Agree or disagree with that decision, this is being reported as fact by numerous people close to the team.

So you have to separate yourself from going "omg look at what Unger is doing!"

Secondly - the FO had determined that the 31st pick had as much value in the 2015 draft as a 2nd rounder. So there is a very real likelihood they would have traded that away in some capacity, whether in a trade back or to get an offensive weapon. So comparing Stephone Anthony to anything is just moot. He wouldn't have been our draft pick even if we stayed at 31.. what he is doing in NO is pretty irrelevant. That's like saying "Wow look at what Teddy Bridgewater is doing compared to Paul Richardson!"

I think what this trade really truly reveals is we have an offensive coordinator that is too rigid in his offensive scheme because this is the second unique game-changing talent we have acquired that he could not figure out how to use. Whatever you think of Percy Harvin the player is irrelevant, the man has skill.. and outside of a kickoff in SB48.. we never really saw it. Jimmy Graham is going down the exact same route, only he's not a jackass so it's a little easier for the locker room to stomach.

But hell - this goes back to even PRE Percy and Graham. Look at what Tate did the moment he left this offense. Look at how Rice and Zach Miller were before they came to Seattle. Yes, this offense isn't extremely pass-oriented but every talented offensive piece thats been added to this team has seen their production fall off a cliff since Darrell Bevell was installed as the offensive coordinator.

That's the damning thing. It's not Graham. It's not whether or not we should have kept Unger.

We're a run-heavy, ball-control team. We don't take risks. It's the philosophy Pete has adapted.
It has nothing to do with Bevell. He's simply carrying out the orders of the chief. And those orders have helped us get to back-to-back Super Bowls.
If Bevell would be handed the keys to do what he wants with the offense, he'd likely take more risks, i.e., passing on more downs, thus increasing Graham's numbers. And to that degree, aren't Graham's numbers projected to be in the top 5 all-time for Seahawk receivers?
Don't really understand your line of thinking here.

 

[mrt144]

I can't help but wonder if one of the reasons behind the Graham trade was to appease Russell and get him some weapons as a motivation for him to resign.

He needed a Steve Smith Sr.

 

[purpleneer]

How much different would we view the Graham trade if the right complementary move was made? How they didn't put more effort into finding a 2nd or 3rd TE who isn't a below average blocker is the baffling part. It reminds me of signing Sexson instead of Delgado to go with Beltre. The M's valuing Sexson the same as Delgado was an easy-to-see mistake on it's own, but it also had an effect on what they got from Beltre and made his deal look like a mistake.

 

[razor150]

Graham is on pace to put up similar numbers to what Tate had his last year here. Amazing, in one thread we have people wishing Tate was here, and in another wishing he didn't have Graham because he hasn't been good enough.

Maybe they're seeing that Graham has an average salary of 9M per, while Tate has 6M per.

I highly doubt it. People need to get over Tate being gone, he isn't what made this team successful. Graham is having a good year, he would have a better one with a better OC, or maybe even a different HC who doesn't force his OC to run an offense less complex then the average high school offense, and a QB who doesn't expect 5 yards of separation before throwing the ball. Despite all that he is still on pace for 900 yards receiving, as a TE in our system.

People here want to turn him into the poster child of every bad move the front office has made. Graham isn't Percy Harvin, he has been a good teammate and he is producing on the field. Getting him was a good move, the problem was the front office continued neglect of the offensive line even after landing him. Which has nothing to do with him. He isn't the problem, and getting the same production from Tate isn't going to make this team better. Hell, it would be great if we had both, but we don't and people need to get over it.

 

[RiverDog]

Graham is on pace to put up similar numbers to what Tate had his last year here. Amazing, in one thread we have people wishing Tate was here, and in another wishing he didn't have Graham because he hasn't been good enough.

Maybe they're seeing that Graham has an average salary of 9M per, while Tate has 6M per.

I highly doubt it. People need to get over Tate being gone, he isn't what made this team successful. Graham is having a good year, he would have a better one with a better OC, or maybe even a different HC who doesn't force his OC to run an offense less complex then the average high school offense, and a QB who doesn't expect 5 yards of separation before throwing the ball. Despite all that he is still on pace for 900 yards receiving, as a TE in our system.

People here want to turn him into the poster child of every bad move the front office has made. Graham isn't Percy Harvin, he has been a good teammate and he is producing on the field. Getting him was a good move, the problem was the front office continued neglect of the offensive line even after landing him. Which has nothing to do with him. He isn't the problem, and getting the same production from Tate isn't going to make this team better. Hell, it would be great if we had both, but we don't and people need to get over it.

I have no bones about Jimmy Graham personally. He's just not a good fit for what we do here. I also don't think that Russell knows how to throw to a big receiver in such a manner that it allows him to take advantage of his height advantage. He tries to throw to Graham as he would Kearse and Baldwin, ie try to drop it over their shoulder rather than making him elevate for it.