49ers coaching search continues...

[Popeyejones]

3 of the 4 NFC West teams have coaches who are heavily involved in choosing the players in the draft. The one that does not is picking highest in the draft.

This is simply untrue.

The division winner (the Cardinals) have a power structure in which Arians reports to the GM Keim, who has final say over all draft and free agency decisions, and also has final say over the 53 man roster. Arians only has final say over the active 46 in any given week. They did this because they regretted having given Wisenhunt control over the 53 in his contract.

The 2nd place team in the division (the Seahawks) give final say to all FA and draft decisions to Snyder, but final say over the 53 to Carroll.

The 3rd place Rams went for an even more equivalent GM/Coach relationship than the Seahawks, placing Snead and Fisher at equivalent levels in the hierarchy, with both of them reporting to the owner (Kroenke)

The last place 9ers have the same structure and division of labor as the 1st place Cardinals.

To suggest otherwise is simply dishonest or an honest mistake.

If you want to lean on "heavily involved", EVERY NFL team has both the coach and GM heavily involved in player selection process. There's not a team in the NFL that doesn't operate that way.

Two things:

1) As stated in this thread and born out over the years, having a division of labor between the GM and HC is just a better strategy with a higher probability of success.

2) As I may have said in this thread (or some other thread) a few days ago, often times in this division of labor the sticking point between "boss of the off-season" (i.e. GM) and "boss of the season" (i.e. the HC) is final say over the 53 man roster. The Cards don't give it to Arians because they got burned giving it to Wisenhunt, whereas the Seahawks do give it to Carroll.

 

[rigelian]

Popeye, Pete Carroll has ultimate authority over personnel decisions for the Seahawks. If Carroll and Schneider disagree, Pete's vote wins. http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... pa0s8uIZnE

Belichick has similar authority.

 

[Hasselbeck]

I would be down right devastated if I was a Niners fan.

Not because you missed out on Hue Jackson. Because the people running your club have no idea what they want. There is NO vision. NO plan. You've turned back into one of those totally irrelevant teams. You'll appoint a coach, a re-tread, who will just hold the fort for a couple of mediocre at best seasons and you'll be doing this dance all over again.

It is a thoroughly miserable set of circumstances. And you were right there, a genuine powerhouse contender. And because the people running your franchise are so completely incompetent and out of their depth -- you're just another Cleveland or Tennessee. Just a mark on another teams schedule where they assume a victory. A team nobody fears. A team nobody is excited about.

What an absolute mess.

Come on English, if you can't get hyped up over the Eric Mangini era.. what can you get hyped up about?

 

[Popeyejones]

Popeye, Pete Carroll has ultimate authority over personnel decisions for the Seahawks. If Carroll and Schneider disagree, Pete's vote wins. http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... pa0s8uIZnE

Belichick has similar authority.

Was going off the following two more recent reports which say Schneider has final control over the 90 man roster (which implies both FA and the draft):

http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/seah ... dy-system/

And that Schneider "takes control" over the off-season and "runs the draft and free agency": http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100000 ... t-nfc-west


It's not like Belichick because the Patriots' GM is Belichick, as is their coach.

Either way, Scott is still way off on his post, as last year the first and last place teams in the division had the least control, and the 2nd and 3rd place teams in the division had the most control.

 

[Laloosh]

Popeye, Pete Carroll has ultimate authority over personnel decisions for the Seahawks. If Carroll and Schneider disagree, Pete's vote wins. http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... pa0s8uIZnE

Belichick has similar authority.

Was going off the following two more recent reports which say Schneider has final control over the 90 man roster (which implies both FA and the draft):

http://www.seattletimes.com/sports/seah ... dy-system/

And that Schneider "takes control" over the off-season and "runs the draft and free agency": http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100000 ... t-nfc-west


It's not like Belichick because the Patriots' GM is Belichick, as is their coach.

Either way, Laloosh is still way off on his post, as last year the first and last place teams in the division had the least control, and the 2nd and 3rd place teams in the division had the most control.

Which post of mine are you referring to?

 

[Popeyejones]

^^^ Agghhh.

Sorry dude. Meant to write Scott. Now corrected. :th2thumbs:

 

[Sports Hernia]

Mike Silver (the direct line to Jackson) is saying the 9ers could have had him if they wanted him.

Don't really know what to make of that.

Ouch, if true.

 

[rigelian]

Popeye, interesting reports, but they essentially talk about how Pete and Schneider have chosen to run things. The bottom line is that it was clearly articulated by the organization that Pete is the final say. I would also say that because of the working relation between the two, he doesn't have to exercise it. The best model is to bring in two guys who can work together at the same time. Baalke is a problem going down that path.

 

[Popeyejones]

Oh also, if you want to bash the 9ers (as is obviously the goal for some here), here's the way to do it:

Traditionally in the NFL the GM has been given control over the final 53.

That's been changing as of late though, and now about 1/3rd of the league gives final 53 control to the HC, which most of those cases being guys that have been hired more recently.

So, assuming that the 9ers don't give their HC control over the 53, they'd still be doing what the majority of the league does, but you could criticize them for using an "older" model that's not adhering to recent trends around the league in how to split up the coach and GM role.

Historically the thinking has been that you don't want to give the coach control over the 53 because he'll want to pack the back of his roster with vets he can trust if he needs them (even though they don't have upside), whereas the GM is going to think more long-term and want to keep rookies who can develop into long-term contributors on the back of the roster .

Of course like anything, when things are working "final say" doesn't need to come up that much and the coach and GM are working together (as is reportedly the case with Schneider and Carroll), but that's always been the thinking behind it.

That coaches have increasingly been able to leverage final 53 authority could be a result of quicker coach turnover than in the past (although that's generally not as increased as people suspect it to be; it's there but pretty marginal), or it could just be what's in fashion.

All-in-all it's really pretty marginal because of the active 46, and come down to a question of how many of those non-active seven roster spots you want to dedicate to veteran understudies versus young guys. (Meaning, it comes down to a mostly symbolic power thing).

 

[Popeyejones]

Popeye, interesting reports, but they essentially talk about how Pete and Schneider have chosen to run things. The bottom line is that it was clearly articulated by the organization that Pete is the final say.

They both specifically say who is in charge of what and who has final say where. And yeah, they contradict the reports from when Carroll was hired.

Either way, whatever, no biggie.

I would also say that because of the working relation between the two, he doesn't have to exercise it. The best model is to bring in two guys who can work together at the same time.

It's obviously the best model.

As for the meme that Carroll and Schneider have never disagreed over a preference for one player or one decision over another, I know this isn't the right forum for it, but I just think that strains credulity beyond the point of taking it seriously. These bone buddy scenarios get written about all currently winning teams, and the power structure loggerjam story gets written about all currently losing teams. It's just the way it is. That Carroll and Schneider work well together though, is both self-evident and pretty clear, IMO.

 

[Popeyejones]

Mike Silver (the direct line to Jackson) is saying the 9ers could have had him if they wanted him.

Don't really know what to make of that.

Ouch, if true.

Yeah. I'd really have to know more to know if it's a pain point or not.

Assuming that it was about control:

If they loved the guy but it came down to final say over the 53 then that's a major f*****g ouch indeed.

But if they loved the guy and he wanted final say over the draft, trades, and FA (as he had in Oakland, and looks like he definitely has a strong chance of having in Cleveland) that's a MAJOR pass for me.

 

[Scottemojo]

3 of the 4 NFC West teams have coaches who are heavily involved in choosing the players in the draft. The one that does not is picking highest in the draft.

This is simply untrue.

The division winner (the Cardinals) have a power structure in which Arians reports to the GM Keim, who has final say over all draft and free agency decisions, and also has final say over the 53 man roster. Arians only has final say over the active 46 in any given week. They did this because they regretted having given Wisenhunt control over the 53 in his contract.

The 2nd place team in the division (the Seahawks) give final say to all FA and draft decisions to Snyder, but final say over the 53 to Carroll.

The 3rd place Rams went for an even more equivalent GM/Coach relationship than the Seahawks, placing Snead and Fisher at equivalent levels in the hierarchy, with both of them reporting to the owner (Kroenke)

The last place 9ers have the same structure and division of labor as the 1st place Cardinals.

To suggest otherwise is simply dishonest or an honest mistake.

If you want to lean on "heavily involved", EVERY NFL team has both the coach and GM heavily involved in player selection process. There's not a team in the NFL that doesn't operate that way.

Two things:

1) As stated in this thread and born out over the years, having a division of labor between the GM and HC is just a better strategy with a higher probability of success.

2) As I may have said in this thread (or some other thread) a few days ago, often times in this division of labor the sticking point between "boss of the off-season" (i.e. GM) and "boss of the season" (i.e. the HC) is final say over the 53 man roster. The Cards don't give it to Arians because they got burned giving it to Wisenhunt, whereas the Seahawks do give it to Carroll.

Arians is heavily involved in the combine and the draft board. Way, way more than Tomsula was. Because Arians has a very distinct offensive system that requires players he thinks are suited to it. Yes, Keim and Arians don't cross lines of authority like Pete and John, but Arians certainly gets to choose some of the groceries.

 

[KitsapGuy]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/timkawakami/status/687385969662689281[/tweet]

 

[rigelian]

Latest rumors have the 49ers closing in on Mike Shanahan. I don't think that is a good thing for the 49ers. As a Seahawks fan...this is almost perfect.

 

[KitsapGuy]

Latest rumors have the 49ers closing in on Mike Shanahan. I don't think that is a good thing.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/timkawakami/status/687387589142183936[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/diannaESPN/status/687383325351264256[/tweet]

Don't know. He has always wanted to be part of everything.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

Latest rumors have the 49ers closing in on Mike Shanahan. I don't think that is a good thing.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/timkawakami/status/687387589142183936[/tweet]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/diannaESPN/status/687383325351264256[/tweet]

Don't know. He has always wanted to be part of everything.

Yeah is he willing to give up all personnel decisions to Baalke? It sure appears that's the structure in place. Suppose it's a matter of how badly the rat wants back into coaching. If he wants it badly enough I guess he'd go along with it.

 

[TheRealDTM]

So as Hawks fans would we rather them get Koetter, Kelly or Shannahan.

I'm thinking inexperienced Koetter has the lowest ceiling and highest probability of face planting. He wasn't great as a college head coach and we've seen "good coordinators" fail badly when given the keys to the circus. I legit don't want to play Kelly, Jeff Fisher and Arians twice a year they scheme against pete too much.

 

[Jville]

This latest coaching episode has much of the look and feel of last year.

The Mike Shanahan possibility makes some sense in that he has previous experience with a conflicted front office and owner plus that quarterback thing.

It is kind of like the Rams' Jeff Fisher retention because of his previous experience in moving a franchise to another city.

 

[Laloosh]

So as Hawks fans would we rather them get Koetter, Kelly or Shannahan.

I'm thinking inexperienced Koetter has the lowest ceiling and highest probability of face planting. He wasn't great as a college head coach and we've seen "good coordinators" fail badly when given the keys to the circus. I legit don't want to play Kelly, Jeff Fisher and Arians twice a year they scheme against pete too much.

I don't even care at this point. Just keep Jed in the owners box and all will be right with the world.

 

[DavidSeven]

Shanahan would probably take whatever control they give him. He just wants to get back in. He was cold-calling teams like a telemarketer just a few weeks ago. Couldn't get a second interview with Miami.

I said in another thread that Koetter is overrated as a coordinator. Not the worst, but his rep is being puffed up a bit because Shanahan (Jr.) has bungled his handling of Matt Ryan (who Koetter used to coach). He's also getting a lot of credit for the fact that Jameis had a decent season, but Jameis, to my eye, was already the most pro-ready QB coming out of college and most likely to succeed.

Chip... he offers the most intrigue from a philosophical standpoint, but can he hire a premiere a staff at this point after the hit he just took in the media? Which D-Coordinator wants his rep forever tarnished because his unit has to play 20% more snaps than any other defense?