#3 RW PECTORAL injury

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pmedic920

pmedic920

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Everyone that keeps bringing up the years that we did ok, or even great, with a sub par O line.
Y'all seem to be forgetting that RW was healthy. He had TWO good wheels.

Right now he has a "flat tire", or at best, he's on a "donut" spare that comes with a warning (DO NOT exceed 50 MPH).

Right now, we don't even have the threat of him running.
I won't pretend to have an answer but I'm worried. Worried for this season, worried for future seasons if we don't get something figured out.
If we can't offer him some protection, I say pull him. Let him heal up.

Saints this week is one thing, we have some badass defenses coming up, one of which, we all know won't hesitate to take aim at a hobbled RW.

Not sure what I'm trying to say but I do know, I'm not comfortable with, "we did all right before ".
 

LeftHandSmoke

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pmedic920":3l2tl9wi said:
Everyone that keeps bringing up the years that we did ok, or even great, with a sub par O line.
Y'all seem to be forgetting that RW was healthy. He had TWO good wheels.

Right now he has a "flat tire", or at best, he's on a "donut" spare that comes with a warning (DO NOT exceed 50 MPH).

Right now, we don't even have the threat of him running.
I won't pretend to have an answer but I'm worried. Worried for this season, worried for future seasons if we don't get something figured out.
If we can't offer him some protection, I say pull him. Let him heal up.

Saints this week is one thing, we have some badass defenses coming up, one of which, we all know won't hesitate to take aim at a hobbled RW.

Not sure what I'm trying to say but I do know, I'm not comfortable with, "we did all right before ".
I agree that a long-term perspective should be considered, including the possible option to finally (too late, it could even be argued) sit him for several weeks.

But in this league winning, now, is everything. And so until a starting QB stares his coach in the face and admits "I can't play today" well then he does play.
 

LeftHandSmoke

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gubernaculum":jga9zjv1 said:
I wouldn't be surprised if this is it pectoral tear Similar to t-Jack
I forget the line but RW suggested that throwing really hard or very deep may be challenging.
 

lobohawk

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LeftHandSmoke":a3k9nu8i said:
There is no real evidence to suggest that RW has let off in his traditionally-rigorous conditioning. We saw how those injuries happened, in each one anyone would have gotten hurt in that situation, it's not the 'physicality' it's the simple physics of it.

Thank you. Any perception that Wilson has softened up on his training is missing the point on this dude. He is obsessively meticulous on just about everything he does. Thus we get the robot conversations. And yes, it can be kinda weird for those of us wired differently.

Forget football players, I have to believe he is one of the more dedicated athletes regarding shaping their body for their sport. He may alter training habits, but that's nothing more than pushing the limits of how he can better his craft.
 

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LeftHandSmoke":3jb50nz2 said:
There is no real evidence to suggest that RW has let off in his traditionally-rigorous conditioning. We saw how those injuries happened, in each one anyone would have gotten hurt in that situation, it's not the 'physicality' it's the simple physics of it.

Actually, his trainer came and and attributed his training as the reason why he wasn't more seriously hurt. Wilson not only worked on strength and speed but flexibility. If he wasn't flexible, that knee sprain is a tear.

Muscle tone and density can save you from a more serious sprain in many instances.
 

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Just a random tangent here...

But seeing Wilson hurt mostly in the pocket and not trying to gain yards rushing while Eli Manning with no mobility has never been this hurt is astounding.
 

theENGLISHseahawk

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In fairness Dallas is a good example.

They have the best O-line in football and a genuine elite left tackle. They spent three first round picks on their O-line.

And Tony Romo has missed the best part of two consecutive seasons due to injury.

On top of Cleveland having used FIVE quarterbacks this year even with Joe Thomas, it does prove that a top LT doesn't stop a QB getting injured. And in the case of Wilson -- neither his ankle or knee injury was the fault of the left tackle anyway.

Essentially QB's get injured in football. All of the top QB's have missed considerable time or suffered serious injuries -- Brady, Manning, Brees, Flacco, Big Ben, Luck, Rivers, Palmer, Stafford, Rodgers, Bridgewater, Cutler.

Wilson hasn't missed a game yet in four and a half seasons.

It's actually unrealistic, considering the list of names above, to expect he wasn't going to get hurt in his career.
 

Sterling Archer

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NINEster":1vzuyqf8 said:
Just a random tangent here...

But seeing Wilson hurt mostly in the pocket and not trying to gain yards rushing while Eli Manning with no mobility has never been this hurt is astounding.

Except both his knee and ankle injury were when he tried scrambling out of the pocket. Nice try making crap up again.
 

Hasselbeck

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theENGLISHseahawk":wv7uzjmy said:
In fairness Dallas is a good example.

They have the best O-line in football and a genuine elite left tackle. They spent three first round picks on their O-line.

And Tony Romo has missed the best part of two consecutive seasons due to injury.

On top of Cleveland having used FIVE quarterbacks this year even with Joe Thomas, it does prove that a top LT doesn't stop a QB getting injured. And in the case of Wilson -- neither his ankle or knee injury was the fault of the left tackle anyway.

Essentially QB's get injured in football. All of the top QB's have missed considerable time or suffered serious injuries -- Brady, Manning, Brees, Flacco, Big Ben, Luck, Rivers, Palmer, Stafford, Rodgers, Bridgewater, Cutler.

Wilson hasn't missed a game yet in four and a half seasons.

It's actually unrealistic, considering the list of names above, to expect he wasn't going to get hurt in his career.

Your point is absolutely valid about injuries happening. This is a violent sport, ultimately even with the best OL in the game that doesn't guarantee keeping Wilson healthy for the full duration of his career, and truthfully as you've said - injuries happen to EVERYONE.

Myself personally though, my gripe with the OL isn't just keeping Wilson upright.. our entire offense is completely worthless with a bad outing from this OL. We have seen this 3 times this year already, and it burned us last season as well. If you're hoping to fully prevent an injury to a key player happen - that's asking a lot. But I don't think it's asking much to throw out 4 other capable OL (Britt actually looks to be a very good center in the making) to at least keep the offense from doing absolutely nothing for 4 or 5 quarters of play.

So yeah, Joe Thomas may not prevent Russ from getting hurt again in 2016 or 2017 or 2018.. but if Joe Thomas/Staley/whoever helped stabilize an offense enough to string together a few drives that don't end with a killer holding call or a run for loss + sack.. then isn't that worth it?
 

theENGLISHseahawk

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Hasselbeck":10tvtg43 said:
So yeah, Joe Thomas may not prevent Russ from getting hurt again in 2016 or 2017 or 2018.. but if Joe Thomas/Staley/whoever helped stabilize an offense enough to string together a few drives that don't end with a killer holding call or a run for loss + sack.. then isn't that worth it?


If they can't move the ball vs this Saints defense then I would lean towards agreeing with you. At the moment though I'm willing to put Sunday down to facing a top opponent (three great DL/EDGE types, #4 defense per DVOA) and I suspect the offense will get its usual second half of the season tear.
 
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pmedic920

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theENGLISHseahawk":2zmjp3i6 said:
In fairness Dallas is a good example.

They have the best O-line in football and a genuine elite left tackle. They spent three first round picks on their O-line.

And Tony Romo has missed the best part of two consecutive seasons due to injury.

On top of Cleveland having used FIVE quarterbacks this year even with Joe Thomas, it does prove that a top LT doesn't stop a QB getting injured. And in the case of Wilson -- neither his ankle or knee injury was the fault of the left tackle anyway.

Essentially QB's get injured in football. All of the top QB's have missed considerable time or suffered serious injuries -- Brady, Manning, Brees, Flacco, Big Ben, Luck, Rivers, Palmer, Stafford, Rodgers, Bridgewater, Cutler.

Wilson hasn't missed a game yet in four and a half seasons.

It's actually unrealistic, considering the list of names above, to expect he wasn't going to get hurt in his career.

Actually Dallas is not a good example.
We are talking about T.Romo :{)

Seems he gets injured when the wind blows too hard.
 

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Sports Hernia":3rpblqtq said:
scutterhawk":3rpblqtq said:
McGruff":3rpblqtq said:
People in general are really overreacting to this last game.

Just for comparison, through 7 games last year, Wilson was sacked 31 times. Over the course of the season, that is a 70 sack season.

Through 6 games this year, Wilson has been sacked 11 times. That's 29 over the course of the season, or LESS than Wilson has ever been sacked in any season in his career.

Hits & sacks can have an accumulative effect, and just because Wilson has been doing much better at getting the ball out a lot faster, but that doesn't mean that he's not still being drilled into the turf nearly as much as he ever has been, and that's what is finally taking toll on his physical well being.

The lackluster attention that's being paid to our Offensive Line, is going to produce a Knock out punch to our Franchise Quarterback.

We love our # 1 DEFENSE...........Offensive Line??? meh....... not so much.
It's what the salary cap was designed to do.......like it or not, you can't pay everyone.

The Salary Cap was designed to spread the payola to players on BOTH sides of the ball.
Other good teams are able to do it without the big drop off in O-Line quality players.
I think that Pete has relied on Tom Cable to get maximum RUN push, and now that Marshawn Lynch is gone, Thomas Rawls is out, and Michael's not getting it done, and RW is somewhat hobbled up, it's obvious to most that there's something broken.
Wilson WAS getting an average of 600 run yards per Season, but with the lack of RB push, the Seahawks are now trying to re-fit and get the long overdue pass protection that's been missing from this Tom Cable Offense.
Russell Wilson WAS quite capable of passing from the pocket, but not a pocket that is breeched in under 2.5 seconds.
Review....No Run Push.... disintegrating Pass Protection....Injured Quarterback that used his legs to escape pressure....Faltering O-Line.
These are accumulative negatives that are attributed directly to the shortcomings of the O-Line.
 

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theENGLISHseahawk":3mrewevv said:
Hasselbeck":3mrewevv said:
So yeah, Joe Thomas may not prevent Russ from getting hurt again in 2016 or 2017 or 2018.. but if Joe Thomas/Staley/whoever helped stabilize an offense enough to string together a few drives that don't end with a killer holding call or a run for loss + sack.. then isn't that worth it?


If they can't move the ball vs this Saints defense then I would lean towards agreeing with you. At the moment though I'm willing to put Sunday down to facing a top opponent (three great DL/EDGE types, #4 defense per DVOA) and I suspect the offense will get its usual second half of the season tear.

Our championship window is open right now. Wouldn't top defenses be a more appropriate measuring stick than the lowly Saints D?
 

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This is frustrating.

Not even sure what the upside is.

When Russ got hurt, he should have sat out. Period. To succeed in the playoffs we have to have a healthy Wilson. Maybe that defense can hold the game close even when we field an inept offense but, against the good teams in the playoffs, we have to have an effective QB. That is how the NFL moved the rules, and while we benefit from them with an effective QB, we won't with an injured one.

It would have been better to have just held him out and lost 1-3 extra games accordingly.

We could have still gotten a wildcard (or the NFC West spot with how bad the rest of the NFC West is playing). With a healthy Wilson and that defense, we could have made a run and made some noise.

But since we waited, because Russ was no longer mobile and could not protect himself, we potentially got him injured worse. I have been pleading to sit him since he got hurt, but especially after he injured his knee. It would have been worth the losses to have him come back in mid-November and see a healthy Wilson lead us on a tear.

I don't see how he can heal given he is never off his feet, but I do see how he can end up getting his injury exacerbated or getting new injuries. And I don't for second believe the Wilson we currently have available (even before the Pec injury) isn't going to find himself and his team knocked out of the playoffs quickly because the QB is nowhere near 100%, even by that time.

We might be too late. But it was just stupid to try to save that stupid record by sacrificing the season. And if they "start" him and then immediately pull him, it is going to diminish the value of having the dubious "record" anyway.

We could have recovered from 2-3 losses early in the season (one of which ended up being a loss anyway!), but I don't see how we can recover from having a gimpy QB late in the season. The Steelers are smarter, they are getting Ben healthy, letting him heal and are going to be that much more dangerous in the playoffs. HFA won't matter if our QB is limping around on crutches in the playoffs.
 

scutterhawk

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pacific101":kxh5qli1 said:
scutterhawk":kxh5qli1 said:
pacific101":kxh5qli1 said:
Its NFL football folks, you play, you get banged up. One observation I made early on this year was the fact that Russell wasn't taking any more abuse out there this season than he had in the past, in fact less because our Online was and continues to improve in their efforts to protect him.

A lot of folks are immediately assuming that Russell's increased vulnerability to injury, is the blame of the Oline, instead of what my suspicions have been all along, and what I still suspect might be the real culprit. No not Darell
Bevell's play calling, lol, that is where everyone who doesn't blame the Oline goes next, when I believe the blame falls squarely on Russell's shoulders.

You can BS yourself, and try to shift blame and accountability elsewhere, but at the end of the day the truth is the truth, and until you own that and do what you have to, to fix it, your just going to keep getting more of the same.

I know I can be a wordy SOG (son of a gun), so I'll try and simple this down so I make my point and minimize boring you to death in the process. I've mentioned in a few of my post that I spent a good many years of my life coaching boxers, and with some good success, also having boxed some myself over the years. One thing that a boxer or a boxing coach will tell you separates boxing from most other physically demanding sports, is that at the end of the day, when you win you get all the credit, when you loose you do too.

Over the years of training fighters I had kids, who had no more skill or even toughness than any other kid in the gym. The ones who excelled, were the ones who pushed themselves to physical extremes that the others would not. I would see a lot of fighters do just enough to convince the coaches and themse!lives that they were in good enough shape to fight and win.

The ones who started out with this mentality would generally win their first few bouts, but then as they started getting matched tougher, they would start getting injured and beat. The ones who pushed themselves and who allowed their coaches to push them to greater extremes, were the ones who went on to win the local, state, regional, and national competitions.

The ones that always frustrated me as a coach, were the ones who had made the sacrifices and pushed themselves to these extremes to achieve greatness, and then, start listening to others around them, convince them that there were softer and easier ways to get to and remain at that level, which was simply not true. If they drank that koolaid and followed along down that path, it was not to long before it started to evidence itself out.

One of my first clues was when a fighter, who previously had demonstrated this type of work ethic, and had achieved that level of physical and mental toughness that had allowed them to compete at high levels of competition without injury, or at very least no injury, that they did not recover from quickly, start getting injured, hopefully in the gym before it found its way into actual bouts, where an injury can lead to even greater vulnerabilities and more serious injury.

Now long story as short as I can make it. I am a huge Russell Wilson fan, and a major reasoning behind my admiration for him, is my belief that he was one of these types of "fighters" I just described, who pushed himself to physical and mental extremes to get to where he is today. I think somewhere along the line over the past year or so, some of those who have been involved in his sports medicine or coaching has convinced him of a softer and easier way to aquire that same level of physical and mental toughness that got him where he was, and in drinking that flavor of koolaid, he has made himself, once again, near mediocre and increasingly vulnerable to injury.

I fear that if Russell doesn't wake up and smell the coffee, quit kidding himself, go back and start doing those things that got him where he is and kept him there up and until this past year, that we are only going to see more of the same with him, eventually sustaining an injury that removes him from the field of play and finding himself being replaced with a young gun who hasn't lost sight of what got them there, and haven't been induced in to drinking the softer easier way brand of koolaid.

We have all heard him in press conferences this year talking about how he has implicit faith in his rehab handlers, who are doing a great job of patching up all of his injuries, but not really addressing the real problem which is why he is now suddenly vulnerable to all the I juries he historically been able to avoid.

I'm not saying he should ignore the sports medicine people helping him recover from his injuries. What I am suggesting, Russell, is that you quit BS'ing yourself, make the decision to go back and start making those same sacrifices you made all the years prior to getting here, and get yourself back on your game. Otherwise I suspect that in the not to distant future your going to be reading articles about yourself where the are referring to you as a one time bright falling star. I truly hope not, for your sake and the sake of the Seattle Seahawks.

No time for editing this morning, hopefully spellcheck covered most of my errors, and you were able to make sense of what I'm trying to relay here. Sorry about being so wordy, its just who I am, never been able to keep it short and sweet on paper.

There's one aspect of your Boxing to Football analogy that doesn't correlate..... as a fighter in the ring, you yourself are responsible for keeping your guard up and not doing so means that you are going to sustain a LOT of unnecessary punishment, whereas, being a Quarterback, your Offensive Line IS your "Guard Up", in fact, they are designated as...Right Guard, and Left Guard.
It would be like tying your non-punching hand behind your back, and no amount of conditioning will get your body to withstand an non-defensed beating.

Its a good analogy, but the point I was making is that an athlete, like Russell for instance, who is admittedly smaller than most NFL quarterbacks who have achieved real greatness, and based on the exceptional work ethic that Russell and those around him touted to the public upon his entry into the NFL felt that he was able to compete at on a level equal to or exceeding many of his peers playing that same position in the NFL.

I believe that it was his phenomenal mental and physical obsession and conditioning practices that allowed him to ahieve greatness as a rookie and that allowed him to play pretty much injury free the first couple of years.

Then came the big money, there was a clear change in him, he started popping up in high dollar suites after the games to do press conferences.

He went through some pretty serious relationship ups and downs, the past few years. He had a much bigger demand put on himself by the media, and I feel that somewhere in all of that he decided he could devote just enough of his time to conditioning so that he could play the game of football, hoping his talent would carry the day, but slacked off increasingly, from that same levels of conditioning that got him to the top.

Maybe he started believing all the hype, that he was God gifted with all kinds of super natural talent, and started thinking that would be enough to carry the day, and I'm concerned that its proving not to be true.

If Russell is doing what a lot of mediocre players do for practice and conditioning, then he himself has become mediocre in his conditioning and has left him vulnerable to these increasing injuries, that he used to be able to get up and walk away from, but that are now starting to cripple him us and making it increasingly difficult on himself to be the player he knows and we believe that he can be and has been. .

If Russell wants to realize his dreams of being a star NFL Quarterback with records and rings like those worn by Elway, Manning etc.. he better wake up, smell the coffee quick,.

He needs to get his butt back in the kind of shape he was in before all the fame and fortune came his way. He can say it didn't change him all day long, we all saw a notable change in him after he signed on the dotted line, and it's expected to a point, but I wonder if he didn't loose some of his incentive to be that great QB he dreamed of being all through highschool and college.

if that is the case, take the big money he was paid to become this five star quarterback for the Seattle Seahawks, and ride off in to the sunset, unaccomplished, and let the next gunslinger grab the ball and pick up where he left off,. Boykin could very well be our man. I see a lot of the young Russell Wilson in him, and he could learn a lot from Russell if he doesn't make some changes fast. My guess in all of this anyways.
When Tom Cable's meat & potato's Run Game broke down, the O-Line was patched up enough for Russell Wilson to light it up from pocket midway through last season (albeit from a less than stellar pocket), this showed the ability of Wilson to re-tool his mindset to fit the challenges, so to me, he showed that he can and does put in the necessary attention to his craft & conditioning.
When the O-line flubbed up and a 300+ lb. rhino named Nmgdatgummed Suh streaks through and steps on Wilson's foot (like he did to Aaron Rodgers)....THAT is an injury that you can NOT condition for, and now?, I'm not so sure that they are doing Wilson any favors by letting him play (even though he played an outstanding game the following week), he was obviously slowed up from that and that got his knee messed up, and now his Pec?...All this wasn't because Wilson got suddenly distracted with the money....He got paid...HE DESERVED IT.
 

scutterhawk

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gubernaculum":2tu2a42i said:
I wouldn't be surprised if this is it pectoral tear Similar to t-Jack
It's not just the "Pectoral Tear" that can screw up his mechanics, he has a bum foot & knee that can and will alter his execution of passing the ball.
 

scutterhawk

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theENGLISHseahawk":1g9tsgzf said:
In fairness Dallas is a good example.

They have the best O-line in football and a genuine elite left tackle. They spent three first round picks on their O-line.

And Tony Romo has missed the best part of two consecutive seasons due to injury.

On top of Cleveland having used FIVE quarterbacks this year even with Joe Thomas, it does prove that a top LT doesn't stop a QB getting injured. And in the case of Wilson -- neither his ankle or knee injury was the fault of the left tackle anyway.

Essentially QB's get injured in football. All of the top QB's have missed considerable time or suffered serious injuries -- Brady, Manning, Brees, Flacco, Big Ben, Luck, Rivers, Palmer, Stafford, Rodgers, Bridgewater, Cutler.

Wilson hasn't missed a game yet in four and a half seasons.

It's actually unrealistic, considering the list of names above, to expect he wasn't going to get hurt in his career.

Agreed ^, although there is one caveat; by letting Wilson play through his 1st injury, it's now becoming an accumulative problem for the healing of injury #1, in that it has produced injury #2, and now #3 those other QB's you've mentioned have all been forced to take the time for healing up...I don't see them doing Wilson any favors by letting him 'Tough It Out'.
 

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austinslater25":1r3lfvch said:
Seattle is going back to the SB and luckily none of the defensive fronts in the AFC worry me. Hang in there guys, it will get better.
Wish there were a hundred more of this mind set in here instead of gloomy doom crap
 

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pmedic920":34bvavee said:
BTW, Russ has NEVER been "limited" in practice, now he is.

I pray the this is nothing more than some soreness.

Like I said above, this can be a serious injury.

If anybody doubts me, Goggle it.

I truly hope I'm having a 4 beer overreaction.

Yeah, yeah, "GOGGLE it!"
 
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