MacDonald riding with Geno

[Ozzy]

His EPA is low because he hasnt had a ton of tds.

But there absolutley IS evidence that he can throw Tds and lead in EPA.

2022...

Among 43 qualifying quarterbacks in 2022, Geno Smith ranked 4th in EPA/play, 3rd in CPOE, and 4th in success rate when operating out of shotgun while tied or trailing by one score. Only one quarterback was better in all three categories: Patrick Mahomes.

So there is the stat that YOU have selected as being critical. Where we differ is that you will look at the fact that that was 2022 and see him declining on his own since, despite the Fact that his OC was shown to be a failure (unable to adapt despite finding early success) here, failed when he left and is no longer in thr league. Doesnt a failed coordinator, failed plan, poor coaching and sub-par scheme contribute to a team and QB regressing? Or is it just on Geno that the offense stalled under Waldron? 2022 was also the last year that we had any semblance of a rushing attack, if only for the first half of the season.

Then, Grubb gets here and... do we REALLY have to go into why Geno and the offense drastically underperformed?

So you choose to ignore the contributing factors that are SO obvious that Seattle is now known as the franchise with a rotating door at the coordinator position and instead just focus on the qb, as though the qbs performance isnt tied directly to the skill of the guy calling the games for him.

The fact is that Geno HAS shown that when he has even COMPETENT playcalling and a REASONABLE rushing attack that he can not only be GOOD in EPA and CPOE but among the BEST.

It’s not 2022 though. The same argument you used against Stroud applies to Geno if you’re being consistent. No one had much tape on Geno in early 2022. He fell of a little in the second half of that year too.

That’s fine if you hold to that and assume with a bunch of changes he goes back to 2022. What I can’t understand is why you can’t fathom the other side of this debate where people are a little skeptical after this year and him getting older that he may not even with some changes. You may disagree. It history tells us it’s REASONABLE. Geno was 14th in 2023 in a much better year. Right where most people have him, middle of the pack. He don’t have a ton of touchdowns last year either. Why is your default that he’s a touchdown monster? In 13 years he’s been good at that ONCE

I’m not trying to be snarky but I think if you give the other side a little benefit of the doubt this debate would be easier for you to understand.

Why would him being closer to what he was last year be so ridiculous of a stance to hold? I don’t understand it dude.

 

[Ozzy]

In other words, you subjectively do not like Geno.

But even if true is that ok? You subjectively love Geno and that’s cool too. It’s inconsistent to say you don’t like him therefore your opinion is biased while you loving him is purely objective.

 

[ruffENrowdy]

I think what most of the GeNO people are saying is that he does not deserve a contract extension, not at all. Would you draft a player out of college who has regressed in the last 3 seasons? That's what has had my mind boggled during these discussions if I am being honest.

 

[Ozzy]

And here’s a new discussion. 7 of the 8 best teams are all mobile quarterbacks. Maybe it’s not so much Grubb but in the modern nfl you’re just handcuffed if you don’t have a guy who can take off and run, do read option, play action stuff etc. another reason I want the next guy to be more mobile.

The one outlier team? The lions who have an all world line and an elite dynamic running back.

 

[Ozzy]

I think what most of the GeNO people are saying is that he does not deserve a contract extension, not at all. Would you draft a player out of college who has regressed in the last 3 seasons? That's what has had my mind boggled during these discussions if I am being honest.

Yeah and I’m tired of being called a hater while saying every pro Geno supporter are the only objective people in this discussion. It’s subjective for everyone because it’s super nuanced by design

 

[Sperrydogg]

It’s not 2022 though. The same argument you used against Stroud applies to Geno if you’re being consistent. No one had much tape on Geno in early 2022. He fell of a little in the second half of that year too.

That’s fine if you hold to that and assume with a bunch of changes he goes back to 2022. What I can’t understand is why you can’t fathom the other side of this debate where people are a little skeptical after this year and him getting older that he may not even with some changes. You may disagree. It history tells us it’s REASONABLE. Geno was 14th in 2023 in a much better year. Right where most people have him, middle of the pack. He don’t have a ton of touchdowns last year either. Why is your default that he’s a touchdown monster? In 13 years he’s been good at that ONCE

I’m not trying to be snarky but I think if you give the other side a little benefit of the doubt this debate would be easier for you to understand.

Why would him being closer to what he was last year be so ridiculous of a stance to hold? I don’t understand it dude.

He falls off every year

 

[OrangeGravy]

This is literally essentially the same thing that those ordained Geno cultists believe. Why, then, the fiercely derisive rhetoric?

Because they don't actually believe that. It's the equivalent of using the preface " No offense " before saying something offensive.

 

[OrangeGravy]

In other words, you subjectively do not like Geno.

"Not smart/clever/moxy enough for my taste" and "nobody outside of Seattle is pining for him".

These 2 statements explain why people don't like Geno. They'll say he's a good QB, but ...........Everything after but is just an excuse to have 1 of these feels.

 

[CallMeADawg]

But even if true is that ok? You subjectively love Geno and that’s cool too. It’s inconsistent to say you don’t like him therefore your opinion is biased while you loving him is purely objective.

I like Geno based on his performance and the data that backs it up. Don’t get that crooked.

 

[CallMeADawg]

"Not smart/clever/moxy enough for my taste" and "nobody outside of Seattle is pining for him".

These 2 statements explain why people don't like Geno. They'll say he's a good QB, but ...........Everything after but is just an excuse to have 1 of these feels.

Someone completely understood what I was saying. Thank you.

 

[pittpnthrs]

They can feel that way the same way Daniel Jeremiah does. A dude who played QBand has kept abreast of Geno and the Hawks for a while.

Because 15 INts arent 15 horrible decisions when you understand that 8 of them were good decisons that ended badly for no faukt of the QB

Or that 21 TDs is low but nit career defining or problematic when you understand that the Grubb offense was canned in Seattle for how poor the concepts and play design were, ESPECIALLY , in compressed field situations. AND that no offense failed as miserably inside the 10 yard line and in short yardage siuations as seattles.

You could blame all of that on GeNo... except that until this year, the offense wasnt that bad inside the 10 and for all the chants that Geno sucks in the redzone, the reality is that until Grubb, he had thrown 33TDs and 2 INts in the redzone. Thats a 16.5 : 1 ratio. Under Grubb - 13:4.

So you can call all of that excuses and praise a guy like Goff for being so 'incredible' despite the fact that Geno was more accurate and better at avoiding pressure despite playing behind the 26th ranked line whike Goff played begind a top unit if you want. Just dont try to pass off superficial analysis and emotion based arguments as relevant evidence in a debate that goes deeper than wins and losses and TDs and INts. Leave it at 'i dont like the dude and my mind cant be changed no matter what the stats say and he does on the field'. At least @SoulfishHawk drops his argument there and just leaves it at that. Thats respectable. Some players, no matter what they do sometimes just dont 'do it' for fans. And that is undeniably the case considering the upswell of support among some of the anti- Geno crowd around here for Drew Lock last year when the dude showed zero that would warrant being a starter. Check that. All Drew had to do was act like he coukd play for a series or throw one TD, despte sucking the whole game to have some calling for him to start.

Thats all good. But its an argument who's only real roots are in emotion.

Keas, it's not just about the int's or any other stats. I've followed the guy since WVU and my opinion of him is that I think he's a bonehead. I think he does stupid things and makes bad decisions and I haven't seen anything from him that will change my mind on that. I give him credit for being able to make any pass on the field, but there's times he shouldn't. It's just things like trying to force stuff in small windows, locking on receivers, leaving large areas of field on the table due to his unwillingness to run, not getting one more yard on a rare scramble because of poor field presence, etc,,,,. It's just those things that cause me to see him in a different light that you and others. He's not a bad QB in any means, but he instills zero confidence in me to lead the team anywhere.

 

[pittpnthrs]

I side with tape-based analysis further informed by statistical analysis and then balanced with situational context, and the people on "my side" generally do so as well.

That's why we're on this side, because if we DIDN'T do that, we'd be wanting the same change as the dudes throwing zingers instead of engaging in actual football talk. Like the "another INT, wasn't his fault" and "chess/pickleball" comments.

I get it Mael and i'm not trying to be hard to get along with. I'm just saying that stats don't always tell the whole picture. I believe you feel that's incorrect though. Also, what stats are we basing things off of? It seems the favorable stats are always due to Geno, but the nonfavorable ones are due to something else. It can get frustrating.

I've watched Geno enough over the years to form an opinion. It's going to take him to change it. So far he hasen't.

 

[Ozzy]

I like Geno based on his performance and the data that backs it up. Don’t get that crooked.

And others don’t because of data that backs that up as well. Your stance isn’t any more objective or reasonable than the other side, that’s the point.

I’ve always said Geno is unique case because some data is very good and some data is flat out bad. Onbsecond thought it’s not rust unique, most guys in the middle of the pack are that way. They can flash at times and make too many mistakes…..that’s why they’re not one of the elite guys.

But since you said what data/performance convinces you he’s really good this year and leading into next year?

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Oh man, this is gonna' be one hell of a fun off-season.

 

[CallMeADawg]

And others don’t because of data that backs that up as well. Your stance isn’t any more objective or reasonable than the other side, that’s the point.

I’ve always said Geno is unique case because some data is very good and some data is flat out bad. Onbsecond thought it’s not rust unique, most guys in the middle of the pack are that way. They can flash at times and make too many mistakes…..that’s why they’re not one of the elite guys.

But since you said what data/performance convinces you he’s really good this year and leading into next year?

Look at the post I responded to. Tell me what that is. I’ll wait.

FOH.

 

[GemCity]

Feeling both sides of the story here. I too feel like Geno can be a bonehead.

But I’ve also seen him look like a Top 5 QB.

From the TEAM perspective, Geno is our best option for 2025. There’s no FA or college kid (worth trading up for) that’s going to do better.

From the TEAM perspective, it’s a bit ‘harsh’ to gauge Geno’s performance. Lack of postseason play? Same thing…

We had a bottom of the dumpster O-line. Folks have mentioned the mobile QBs that are still in the playoffs…take a look at their O-line rankings. Perhaps there’s an anomaly there. To me, a guy like Jackson is going to look good almost anywhere.

Stats and O-line aside, I will say I hope MM and JS ‘love’ a guy in the upcoming drafts..maybe that’s not this year but, we have to start taking shots at some point.

I’m not as concerned with 2025. There’s quite a few holes to fill before we’re a real threat again. I know that’s subjective but, that’s just how I feel. There’s not too many QBs out there that would look good behind our line.

Biggest fear: Geno and his agent will be asking for $45M+ and we’re pigeonholed because we haven’t developed a guy like GB did with Rodgers & Love (as an example).

Howell isn’t that guy.

 

[pittpnthrs]

If you come out and say, it was Geno's fault on this play in this game, and conveniently miss the fact that in THAT circumstance the playcall was crap, is someone not supposed to mention it? Fact is, the playcall rarely comes into discussion and is IMMEDIATLEY dismissed as defending him because the 'anti' side sees him as guilty right off the bat. How about if you cite something like INTs, dont just blanket assign the blame to the QB when each int has its own reasons for happening. Actually dissecting the reason isnt defending anyone. He threw 15 and half or slightly more were his fault. Without a doubt.

I think this is an area where things get a bit messy. What i'm saying is, how do we know the playcall was crap? Because it didn't work? Sure, there are playcalls that are questionable at best, but sometimes they fail due to the execution and sometimes that's the fault of the QB.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

I still don't see anyone coming close to claiming Howell is. And you're right, sometimes Geno can look damn good. It's just the inconsistency and decision making that will always be the concern. To me. I don't hate the guy, for the 748,333rd time. He's likely going to be back, hopefully a new OC and the changes in the off-season make him and the offense more consistent overall. We all want them to win, I think we can agree on that.
Also, the point I tried to make yesterday is that BOTH sides of this argument do their share of slinging. That's all.

 

[Ozzy]

Look at the post I responded to. Tell me what that is. I’ll wait.

FOH.

Again chill with the tone. We’re all trying to be respectful here.

 

[Ozzy]

"Not smart/clever/moxy enough for my taste" and "nobody outside of Seattle is pining for him".

These 2 statements explain why people don't like Geno. They'll say he's a good QB, but ...........Everything after but is just an excuse to have 1 of these feels.

Yeah this is flat out wrong.

You can be a good QB, be coming off a really bad year and entering the end of tour career hence teams not having a big market for him.

Aaron Rodgers is a great quarterback yet after this year but they’re won’t be a big market for him either.

You’re doing what you’re saying others are.