Penalties

[RiverDog]

We're starting to get enough games under our belt to where we can see trends developing, and one that's a bit concerning is our penalty count. We're currently the 6th most penalized team in the league with 32 accepted penalties called against us for 253 yards. However, we've also benefited from penalties called on our opponent as they've drawn more penalties, 34, and more penalty yardage, 288.

In breaking down those penalties, 21 have gone against the offense, 7 on defense, and 4 on special teams. And to go a little further, it mostly involves three players: OG Anthony Bradford has 6, WR DK Metcalf has 4, and CB Devon Witherspoon has 4. No one else has more than two.

League wide, the refs are throwing flags at a significantly higher rate than last season. Last year, the refs threw an average of 11.3 accepted penalties per game. This year, that average is 13.2, or about a 16% increase.

There's a pretty cool website that tracks penalties of which I've used to collect this info:

Seattle Seahawks - 2024 Penalties - View by Player

All penalties commited by the Seattle Seahawks during the 2024 season, viewed by player.

www.nflpenalties.com

 

[Fernie Hawks Fan]

Good info Dog...thanks for posting this.

 

[WmHBonney]

I would have guessed that the increased number of flags thrown was much higher than it actually is.

 

[SeaWolv]

DK only had 5 penalties (accepted) for last season and he already has 4 for this season?

 

[sutz]

It seems to me that the refs always throw more flags in the first part of the season, and then they slow down later on. Several reasons for this, but I think mostly it is because they get "suggestions" every year before the season starts that they are going to emphasize certain penalties and they also seem to introduce new rules every year or so.

As the season goes on, I suspect this will ease up a bit as players learn what the refs are looking for and the refs cool off.

The important question is: Are we more penalized than a Pete Carroll team now?

 

[RiverDog]

I would have guessed that the increased number of flags thrown was much higher than it actually is.

Yeah, me too. Our last two games were huge penaltyfests, with 20 accepted penalties in our game with the Lions and 22 the week before vs. the Fins, so perhaps we're being influenced by recent history.

 

[RiverDog]

The important question is: Are we more penalized than a Pete Carroll team now?

Pete's teams always seemed to collect more penalties than the norm, while The Walrus was the opposite. Players didn't want to come anywhere close to Holmgren after committing a penalty.

But it's a little premature to be talking about Macdonald's teams. First off, as I stated above, the last two games were extraordinary in the number of penalties called on both teams, so it could be just a matter of the officiating crews we drew in those games.

Secondly, at least at this point of the season, we're only talking about 3 players: Bradford, Metcalf, and Witherspoon. That could mean that the problem rests solely with those three individuals vs. a team wide pattern.

So we'll see. I get the impression that Macdonald is going to be more like the Walrus vs. bubble gum Pete.

 

[PhxPhin]

Of those, I'm more concerned about Bradford. Witherspoon had one dumb one I can think of and a ticky track call, but not concerned.

Most of the penalty issues with DK come from him being physical - it's his blessing and curse - get some fantastic plays and great blocking - will also get the occasional penalty, fumble, etc.

He hasn't gotten baited yet where he matches up with a defender and neither back down.

It's a new offense - they are scheming receivers different and multiple WRs have gotten PI calls for interfering/coming off the line - I'm confident they'll hone this.

Same with understanding where the holes are and where the run is going - when the run shifts and it's not in the blockers line of sight and it is in the defender, the defender will shift and react to move and it's easy for the blocker to get hung up and hold..... All blockers need to work on that and find the balance and hidden tricks where they aren't exposed

Overall, I'm not that concerned - procedural stuff hasn't been an issue - it's competitive stuff and with the last game being a flag fest it taints a small sample a bit

 

[bigskydoc]

There doesn't seem to be much historical correlation between number of penalties a team accrues and post-season success, or lack thereof, though. Last time I looked at it, it seemed the most successful teams had a higher number of accepted penalties than average.

 

[projectorfreak]

Bradford's are concerning for sure , keeps the offense from clicking and can cost us points
That is a problem

 

[RiverDog]

There doesn't seem to be much historical correlation between number of penalties a team accrues and post-season success, or lack thereof, though. Last time I looked at it, it seemed the most successful teams had a higher number of accepted penalties than average.

There is a correlation, but it's not very convincing:

Overall teams have a record of 1975-1660-12 with a win percentage of 0.543 when they are the least penalized team.

Win Percentage By Penalties - View By Penalty Differential

Win/Loss record based on how many penalties a team was penalized in a game relative to their opponent.

www.nflpenalties.com

Note that they are considering each individual game, not season end totals.

 

[ZagHawk]

All I know is the offensive line doesn't seem to be getting called with holding penalties 5 times a game anymore, and that to me is a win.

 

[RiverDog]

Of those, I'm more concerned about Bradford. Witherspoon had one dumb one I can think of and a ticky track call, but not concerned.

Most of the penalty issues with DK come from him being physical - it's his blessing and curse - get some fantastic plays and great blocking - will also get the occasional penalty, fumble, etc.

He hasn't gotten baited yet where he matches up with a defender and neither back down.

It's a new offense - they are scheming receivers different and multiple WRs have gotten PI calls for interfering/coming off the line - I'm confident they'll hone this.

Same with understanding where the holes are and where the run is going - when the run shifts and it's not in the blockers line of sight and it is in the defender, the defender will shift and react to move and it's easy for the blocker to get hung up and hold..... All blockers need to work on that and find the balance and hidden tricks where they aren't exposed

Overall, I'm not that concerned - procedural stuff hasn't been an issue - it's competitive stuff and with the last game being a flag fest it taints a small sample a bit

Well, I wouldn't call Metcalf a 'great blocker', but I do agree that he's a physical player that's going to draw a penalty every now and then and that he's not a huge problem as far as penalties are concerned. At least he's not getting the stupid ass PF penalties like he used to.

Witherspoon is pretty green and likely still getting used to what's allowed and what's not allowed in the NFL. It's not surprising that a cornerback is going to be one of the team leaders in penalties. DPI is perhaps the biggest judgement call in officiating and it's the most frequently called penalty on the defense, so I'm a lot more sympathetic with him than I would be with others.

If penalties were Bradford's only problem, I wouldn't be concerned. But he's the weak link on an offensive line that isn't that great. They need to start giving Haynes more snaps.

 

[Hawknight]

Well, I wouldn't call Metcalf a 'great blocker', but I do agree that he's a physical player that's going to draw a penalty every now and then and that he's not a huge problem as far as penalties are concerned. At least he's not getting the stupid ass PF penalties like he used to.

Witherspoon is pretty green and likely still getting used to what's allowed and what's not allowed in the NFL. It's not surprising that a cornerback is going to be one of the team leaders in penalties. DPI is perhaps the biggest judgement call in officiating and it's the most frequently called penalty on the defense, so I'm a lot more sympathetic with him than I would be with others.

If penalties were Bradford's only problem, I wouldn't be concerned. But he's the weak link on an offensive line that isn't that great. They need to start giving Haynes more snaps.

All the talk I would hear about Haynes after the draft, I was for sure thinking he would be a starter right away.

 

[PhxPhin]

I thought Haynes had some good moments in the Lions game - although I tended to only notice on running plays, which isn't where Bradford has issues

 

[RiverDog]

I thought Haynes had some good moments in the Lions game - although I tended to only notice on running plays, which isn't where Bradford has issues

At least according to PFF, Bradford has had issues in both aspects of the position. Your instincts are right, he has had more difficulty in pass protection posting a 46.9 grade, but he also graded out very poorly in run blocking at 54.0. Both marks are among the worst in the league, and the two of them combined places him last out of 69 graded guards.

 

[bigskydoc]

There is a correlation, but it's not very convincing:

Overall teams have a record of 1975-1660-12 with a win percentage of 0.543 when they are the least penalized team.

Win Percentage By Penalties - View By Penalty Differential

Win/Loss record based on how many penalties a team was penalized in a game relative to their opponent.

www.nflpenalties.com

Note that they are considering each individual game, not season end totals.

That’s a slightly different statistic than I was referring to. If I’m understanding your post correctly, that would suggest that a less penalized team is more likely to win a game.

What I’m referring to is looking at teams that had success in the post-season, and seeing where they ranked in terms of total penalties for the season.

For example, the year we won the Super Bowl, we led the league in penalties accepted and yards. I found that there really wasn’t strong correlation between penalties/ yards and post-season success. Teams who won playoff games were distributed on both sides of the average, though it was skewed to the side of more penalties/ yards.

Given that teams who have that success have the most games in a season, a more accurate stat would have been penalties and yards per game, but I don’t think I looked at that.

At some point, I should look at it again, and see if there is a trend now.

 

[RiverDog]

That’s a slightly different statistic than I was referring to. If I’m understanding your post correctly, that would suggest that a less penalized team is more likely to win a game

What I’m referring to is looking at teams that had success in the post-season, and seeing where they ranked in terms of total penalties for the season.

Yes, that's the point I was making and why I noted that it was a by game stat, not a season record or playoff success type of calculation. The advantage of the stat I used is that the sample size is very large, well over 3K games, so that alone adds some credibility to the argument. But like I said, it isn't very convincing as the margin is just 4%.

For example, the year we won the Super Bowl, we led the league in penalties accepted and yards. I found that there really wasn’t strong correlation between penalties/ yards and post-season success. Teams who won playoff games were distributed on both sides of the average, though it was skewed to the side of more penalties/ yards.

Given that teams who have that success have the most games in a season, a more accurate stat would have been penalties and yards per game, but I don’t think I looked at that.

At some point, I should look at it again, and see if there is a trend now.

Yes, I remember that during our LOB era, we were one of the more penalized teams in the league, sort of like the Oakland/LA Raiders of years past. It could be that certain types of teams, the more smashmouth types, tend to be more penalized and that the correlation doesn't apply to them, and that those two teams in particular were so good that they were able to overcome them. They could be an anomaly.

Bottom line is that I'm in general agreement with you, that there isn't a very strong correlation between penalties and the outcome of a game or season. That doesn't mean that it isn't an important part of the game and that we shouldn't try to improve on it, especially as it applies to our penalty magnets, ie Bradford, Metcalf, and Witherspoon.