Canfora reporting Payton wants to move on from ME3

Ozzy

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Yeah to say Wilson couldn't carry the team to a win during his reign is a little crazy. The dude single handedly won us numerous games. You can he's not the same or whatever but the dude was a monster in Seattle and was a massive reason we had the success we did. He didn't make critical plays when we needed? Seriously? He had a ton of game winning drives with multiple critical plays in each of them. He lead the league at one point in GWD, 4th quarter comebacks and his end of game passer rating and states were incredible. BigSkydob with all due respect that is a crazy statement and if I misunderstood you I apologize.
 

rcaido

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Wilson is having exactly the same kind of season this year that he had so many years in Seattle, where he puts up great stats that look good in isolation. He still can't carry the team to a win, when the load is put on his shoulders. He stacks up the stats when things are going well, but isn't making the critical plays that are needed for wins.

It took one of Mahomes' worst performances, for Wilson to eke out a win against the Chiefs, and the win came by way of a 12/19 for 114 yards passing performance coupled with a 40 for 153 yd rushing attack.

So reminiscent of the many years here, when you look at his stats and think, "damn, why do the Hawks look so anemic when Wilson's stats look so good?"
Critical plays? Wilson is #1 in redzone TDs this year. When he was in Seattle, Wilson/Seahawks had one of the most wins in that decade. Even after LOB left. He does look different though, more hesitant, pocket presence has dipped, & scramble ability but he still top 12 QB for now.
 

Lagartixa

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Completely disagree.

Yes as he aged he became less able to put the team on his shoulders, but for many years he did just that.

There isn't a better QB Denver could get this year than the way Wilson is playing.

Hahahahahaha

It would make me so happy if George Paton were to think the same way you do. Unfortunately, I think he's figured out by now that the team will be better off eating the $85M in dead money for cutting Wilson than throwing good money after bad by fully guaranteeing Wilson another $37M on top of everything he's already gotten from them. I expect Wilson to be a free agent in the 2024 offseason, but comments like yours give me hope that somebody with decision-making power at the Broncos may actually believe such things and make things even worse for the Broncos.
 

bigskydoc

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we're both wrong.

russ was traded in march 2022.
Sale to the waltons was approved by the NFL in August 2022.
Russ signed his new contract in September 2022.

So they didn't trade for him but they were the fools who renewed his contract. :)
To believe that the Waltons' had no say in a franchise altering move that occurred less than 3 months before the purchase agreement was submitted for NFL approval is laughable.

That would be like the sellers of a house deciding to put a lien on it to fund tearing out all the fancy backyard landscaping, and putting in massive pool, without asking the buyers if they even want a pool, after a buy-sell agreement has been signed.
 

flv2

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Wilson is a starting quality QB but he's not a top 16 starting quality QB. No team should be looking to acquire him at a cost of $76M for the next 2 seasons. Maybe there's another team willing to pay him $48M over the next 2 seasons. If so the Broncos could agree to pay the remaining $28M, (which would be cheaper for the Broncos than cutting him at $39M).
 

keasley45

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If Wilson was ever capable of running an offense, reading a defense and throwing with anticipation, he'd be doing it for a coach who designs offenses specifically for the qb to do that.

Wilson looks hesitant because he can't do it. Wilson refused to run Shane's offense when he was here because he was 100% aware that if he did, he'd look the way he does now and any chance he had at a big payday and of maintaining his legacy would be what it is now.

Who Russ is now is who many knew he woukd be if he ever got a chance to start.

But don't take my word for it. Payton is fed up. Hackett was fed up. Hackett, by the way is winning with no better a formula than he was given in Denver, and with a far inferior QB.

Waldron was quoted as saying his offense only works if the qb gets the ball out quickly during Russ's struggles here. Wonder why he would say that??
Schottenheimer was unceremoniously canned and anyone who actually watched film could see that his time on the team was over because he was calling plays that worked, and the qb didn't execute them. And Pete then chose to appease Russ rather than forcing him to run the plays that Schotty drew up on the sheet.

The dude has always been who he is now. He just happened to come into a space post LOB where defenses weren't playing 2 high as much and he was able to keep them off balance during a time when the read option and the threat of him running was something new and difficult to defend.

There are no stats that show that Russell was ever able to move the chains consistently through the air, find success on pure passing downs or exploit the entire field.

This could all be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt if someone ever put the time in to do a comparison of how many of his plays came on aborted scrambles initiated by him, vs plays where he actually just executed a play.

And the issue there is that the truth only comes to light if you take the time of have the opportunity to set aside the highlights and spectacle and instead look at play design and how often he actually did what he was supposed to do and what would have worked in game, by virtue of the fact that receivers were open.

Bit even that would likely now be dismissed by his hard-core supporters because even now, his inability to do so is explained away as him being shell-shocked or just slower to make reads. If that's the case, he would be one of the few qbs at an elite level who's ability to read defenses actually decreased over time. Everyone knows that declining physical skills are overcome by increasing knowledge and experience. That's the arc of development of the elite NFL qb. Legs slow, processing increases.

With Russ, legs are ok, mind is as bottleneck as it ever was.

Payton knew this.


Why would a qb whisperer not be able to see what Russ supporters do???

Because it's fallacy. Payton knows exactly who and what Russ is. And if he thought he was just bent, he would have been fired up to jump into Denver and restore him to the guy supporters apparently think he was. I mean, according to them, he was still great his last year here. Surely Payton would have seen that. Instead, no. He took the job because it was the best of the options available to him and in spite of Russ. But what does he know?
 

RiverDog

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Russ is quietly having a great year 16 touchdowns, 4 picks, 102 passer rating etc lol. This anti Russ stuff is goofy. Hell he's having a much better year than Geno with a worse supporting cast. There are probably 3-4 guys playing objectively better or on par as Russ this year. I just don't get this obsession with him or seeing him fail. I have my theories why its the case
I wouldn't call it a "great year." Russell's stats are a mixed bag. He's ranked middle of the road in some, 17th in completion percentage, 19th in passing yards per game, but has a very good TD/INT ratio at 16:4, which has led to his being ranked 4th in passer rating, which is obviously very good.

But in ESPN's adjusted QB rating, which takes into account a quarterback's effect on their team's wins and losses, he's ranked just 21st, or lower 1/3 of starting quarterbacks.

Russell's not having as bad of a season as he had last year and much of the criticism in here isn't justified. He's not the primary cause of the Broncos' woes. But he's still a long, long ways to living up to his billing.

While I agree with your assessment that there's a lot of Seahawk fans that are obsessed with wanting to see him fail, it's not that it's some sort of irrational emotional response. Russell did plenty to us to earn the angst that's been directed at him.
 

Recon_Hawk

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I haven't seen every broncos but the 3 or 4 Russel looked like trash. He's the same guy as he was here. Ok numbers when viewed independently, but put side by side with the game tape and you see the reality.

Their offense gets 10 drives. They score on 2 of the 10 with Russell getting every redzone opportunity to throw the ball, which pads his TD numbers. Half of his positive plays are just going against soft defenses playing with a lead.

On the other 8 drives, it's full of three and outs where Russell can't operate within the pocket and takes unnecessary sacks instead of making throws. It doesn't help the team but it sure helps his INT and passer rating numbers.

It's nuts to think any team wants him. There's no offensive scheme with him, just the Russell Wilson show which no longer wins games.
 

keasley45

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I haven't seen every broncos but the 3 or 4 Russel looked like trash. He's the same guy as he was here. Ok numbers when viewed independently, but put side by side with the game tape and you see the reality.

Their offense gets 10 drives. They score on 2 of the 10 with Russell getting every redzone opportunity to throw the ball, which pads his TD numbers. Half of his positive plays are just going against soft defenses playing with a lead.

On the other 8 drives, it's full of three and outs where Russell can't operate within the pocket and takes unnecessary sacks instead of making throws. It doesn't help the team but it sure helps his INT and passer rating numbers.

It's nuts to think any team wants him. There's no offensive scheme with him, just the Russell Wilson show which no longer wins games.

Exactly. The stat pushers that claim he's having a good year can't be watching the games.

The entire Broncos pass offense is 90% either outlet pass, or broken coverage big play. Or stats stacked when defenses are playing soft and giving up the underneath.

There is little to no continuity.
 

Ozzy

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I wouldn't call it a "great year." Russell's stats are a mixed bag. He's ranked middle of the road in some, 17th in completion percentage, 19th in passing yards per game, but has a very good TD/INT ratio at 16:4, which has led to his being ranked 4th in passer rating, which is obviously very good.

But in ESPN's adjusted QB rating, which takes into account a quarterback's effect on their team's wins and losses, he's ranked just 21st, or lower 1/3 of starting quarterbacks.

Russell's not having as bad of a season as he had last year and much of the criticism in here isn't justified. He's not the primary cause of the Broncos' woes. But he's still a long, long ways to living up to his billing.

While I agree with your assessment that there's a lot of Seahawk fans that are obsessed with wanting to see him fail, it's not that it's some sort of irrational emotional response. Russell did plenty to us to earn the angst that's been directed at him.
Its a fair point but I hate ESPN's metric as it seems way off the norm on multiple instances long before this Wilson stuff came up. It's nto very good.

I understand why people are mad for how he left. What I don't understand is the denouncing what he did hear as if he wasn't great. He was a top 3 guy for a long time with us and without him we never have the success we had while he was our starting QB. Once someone tries to convince others that isn't the case then its obvious they're biased. He was a monster for Seattle. As was the defence, Lynch, our coaching staff etc. All of it.

Edit aded: I have zero problem with people rooting against him or reveling in his struggles now. I just hate the revisionist history so many people have about him I guess is my ultimate point.
 

RiverDog

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Its a fair point but I hate ESPN's metric as it seems way off the norm on multiple instances long before this Wilson stuff came up. It's nto very good.

I understand why people are mad for how he left. What I don't understand is the denouncing what he did hear as if he wasn't great. He was a top 3 guy for a long time with us and without him we never have the success we had while he was our starting QB. Once someone tries to convince others that isn't the case then its obvious they're biased. He was a monster for Seattle. As was the defence, Lynch, our coaching staff etc. All of it.

Edit aded: I have zero problem with people rooting against him or reveling in his struggles now. I just hate the revisionist history so many people have about him I guess is my ultimate point.
I wasn't necessarily trumpeting ESPN's QBR stat, and there's been some very good points raised about its weaknesses here in this thread. All I was saying is that the metrics on Russell are mixed, and certainly the team's success, although they've now won 2 straight, isn't what you would expect from a Pro Bowl quality quarterback. He's not having a "great" season.

I would dismiss Russell's last 5-6 seasons as not great. In his last 5 seasons, we were 1-4 in the playoffs, having never gotten past the divisional round. His play here post LOB can be best described as above average. He was never able to compensate for his diminished skill set. In general, I wouldn't call comments made in here about him as "revisionist."
 

Ozzy

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I wasn't necessarily trumpeting ESPN's QBR stat, and there's been some very good points raised about its weaknesses here in this thread. All I was saying is that the metrics on Russell are mixed, and certainly the team's success, although they've now won 2 straight, isn't what you would expect from a Pro Bowl quality quarterback. He's not having a "great" season.

I would dismiss Russell's last 5-6 seasons as not great. In his last 5 seasons, we were 1-4 in the playoffs, having never gotten past the divisional round. His play here post LOB can be best described as above average. He was never able to compensate for his diminished skill set.
If his last 4-5 seasons weren't good in your opinion then I'm going to have a hard time with anyone trying to tell me Geno is good now then because Wilson was much better and we had massive problems with the offensive line, a couple of years with a historically bad running game and a defense that was terrible. It was a miracle we were able to get to the playoffs in my opinion a few of those years and it was mostly Wilson and Carroll being great at what they do that lead to that.

But to your first point I do think its a valid and reasonable argument.

Here is Wilsons stats including the last 5 years with Seattle. I would argue that is pretty damn good especially considering the problems we had. This doesn't include rushing stats either. Geno isn't on pace to even come close to any of those years and that's with a MUCH BETTER supporting cast.

1698846136776
 

Ozzy

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If the bar Wilson set those last 4-5 years in Seattle aren't good enough then Geno is a massive problem based on what he's done this year especially considering what I mentioned above about every positional group being loaded for him. This is possibly our best overall offensive talent as a whole in a long time exclusdng QB.
 

RiverDog

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If his last 4-5 seasons weren't good in your opinion then I'm going to have a hard time with anyone trying to tell me Geno is good now then because Wilson was much better and we had massive problems with the offensive line, a couple of years with a historically bad running game and a defense that was terrible. It was a miracle we were able to get to the playoffs in my opinion a few of those years and it was mostly Wilson and Carroll being great at what they do that lead to that.

But to your first point I do think its a valid and reasonable argument.

Here is Wilsons stats including the last 5 years with Seattle. I would argue that is pretty damn good especially considering the problems we had. This doesn't include rushing stats either. Geno isn't on pace to even come close to any of those years and that's with a MUCH BETTER supporting cast.

View attachment 61540
I wish I had the link, but there was a site which tracked the 3rd down completion percentage for starting quarterbacks as I remember the debate during that period of time. In 2021, Russell's last season with us, his 3rd down performance stunk, ranked in the low 30's amongst starting QB's, and if you look at his red zone completion percentage by massaging the link below, you'll see that Russell's red zone completion percentage was just 53.3%:


If you take that link a little further back in time, in 2020, RW's red zone completion percentage wasn't bad, around 63%, and that coincided with the best regular season record (12-4) we had since the LOB years. But 2019 he was horrible, at 49.4%. In 2018, his red zone completion percentage was well below the norm, at 56.5%. In 2017, he had a 55.9% completion percentage inside the 20.

Bottom line is that Russell didn't perform when his team needed him most.

And BTW, I'm not one of those telling you how good Geno is. IMO with the exception of the first 3/4 of the season last year, he's been playing worse than what we got from Russell.
 

LastRideOut

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I understand that Russ had some good years here. I understand the point that the Russ groupies here are trying to make. I understand that Seattle had a good run with Russ.

But, I also have eyes. My eyes tell me that the Seahawks were overall more consistent with Hass under center, when moving the ball down the field. This is true for Geno under center. The ball moves down the field at a more consistent pace. First downs on 1/2nd downs are more frequent than they were under Russ, when 1st downs often came on 3rd (and long) down, and that was during Russ's prime. Under Russ, the ball moved down the field in spurts and large chunks. Exciting splash plays for sure, but the meat of the game could be frustrating at times to watch. Stalled drives were the name of the game until it was time for hero ball. That gets old fast.

I remember getting exasperated when Russ would sling a moon ball on 3rd and short downs, like 3rd and 2. Why? Why not throw to the middle of the field for the first, and move the sticks?

Because he can't read a defense, and throw the ball where it needs to be thrown. That's why.
 

Ozzy

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I understand that Russ had some good years here. I understand the point that the Russ groupies here are trying to make. I understand that Seattle had a good run with Russ.

But, I also have eyes. My eyes tell me that the Seahawks were overall more consistent with Hass under center, when moving the ball down the field. This is true for Geno under center. The ball moves down the field at a more consistent pace. First downs on 1/2nd downs are more frequent than they were under Russ, when 1st downs often came on 3rd (and long) down, and that was during Russ's prime. Under Russ, the ball moved down the field in spurts and large chunks. Exciting splash plays for sure, but the meat of the game could be frustrating at times to watch. Stalled drives were the name of the game until it was time for hero ball. That gets old fast.

I remember getting exasperated when Russ would sling a moon ball on 3rd and short downs, like 3rd and 2. Why? Why not throw to the middle of the field for the first, and move the sticks?

Because he can't read a defense, and throw the ball where it needs to be thrown. That's why.
Again I disagree but I do think its a reasonable take. I would take a prime Russ over Hass and Geno all day and for me it isn't even remotely close but I get the other side of it. I will finish by saying I think the Russ can't read a defense argument is way overblown. You don't have a 10 year run with that much success and not be able to read a defense or solely rely on explosive plays. His completion %, YPA etc are all too good to say that's all he was.

But again, I get that his style was unique and not for everyone and even I sometimes like a more traditional guy. When Geno is rolling its fun watching him work in the TE's for example. So not trying to argue or say you're wrong, I just see it differently and that's what makes sports fun at times.

I'm not a fan of calling anyone who disagrees or who thinks Russ was good are just "Russ groupies" though. I don't call anyone a Geno groupie because of that.
 

Ozzy

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I wish I had the link, but there was a site which tracked the 3rd down completion percentage for starting quarterbacks as I remember the debate during that period of time. In 2021, Russell's last season with us, his 3rd down performance stunk, ranked in the low 30's amongst starting QB's, and if you look at his red zone completion percentage by massaging the link below, you'll see that Russell's red zone completion percentage was just 53.3%:


If you take that link a little further back in time, in 2020, RW's red zone completion percentage wasn't bad, around 63%, and that coincided with the best regular season record (12-4) we had since the LOB years. But 2019 he was horrible, at 49.4%. In 2018, his red zone completion percentage was well below the norm, at 56.5%. In 2017, he had a 55.9% completion percentage inside the 20.

Bottom line is that Russell didn't perform when his team needed him most.

And BTW, I'm not one of those telling you how good Geno is. IMO with the exception of the first 3/4 of the season last year, he's been playing worse than what we got from Russell.
Some of that was because we had a terrible running game and a lot of 3rd and longs. I don't think that was all on Russ. A good running game helps massively for QB's inclusing Russ, Geno almost all of them. The red zone stuff with zero running game makes life much harder too. I'll dive into that link though, I love stuff like that so thanks for sharing.

Point taken on the Geno front, so many people are responding I get mixed up lol.
 

RiverDog

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Some of that was because we had a terrible running game and a lot of 3rd and longs. I don't think that was all on Russ. A good running game helps massively for QB's inclusing Russ, Geno almost all of them. The red zone stuff with zero running game makes life much harder too. I'll dive into that link though, I love stuff like that so thanks for sharing.

Point taken on the Geno front, so many people are responding I get mixed up lol.
We didn't have a terrible running game in 2021 or 2020, ranked 11th and 12th respectively. In 2019, we were ranked 4th in rushing yards per game, and in 2018, we were ranked first:


You might want to revise your narrative to fit the facts a little better. The last 4 years that Russell was here, he had a solid if not superior running game. That's likely one of the things that hurt him in Denver last season, that he didn't have a top rushing attack like he had for those past few years that he was in Seattle.
 
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rcaido

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We didn't have a terrible running game in 2021 or 2020, ranked 11th and 12th respectively. In 2019, we were ranked 4th in rushing yards per game, and in 2018, we were ranked first:


You might want to revise your narrative to fit the facts a little better. The last 4 years that Russell was here, he had a solid if not superior running game. That's likely one of the things that hurt him in Denver last season, that he didn't have a top rushing attack like he had for those past few years that he was in Seattle.


I checked 2019 redzone conversion & Seattle was ranked 5th best TD percentage,3rd best TDs, & 6th in Redzone attempts He didn't have a very good completion percentage but they still scored on the drive. So the 49.4% is very misleading stat.

In 2018, Seattle was 10th in Redzone attempts. 9th in TDs, & 6th in TD%.

Just a note this year, his redzone completion percentage is 4th best 68.3%, 3rd most completions, he is number 1 in TDs w/ 0INT
 
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